Who made it? Old Jim Rempe Cue Engraved Butt Cap
- Thread starter JIMMY L
- Start date
Chopdoc, great info there. While I was really thinking of a cue series, or at least part of a series, your info does show that Jim M at least worked with some other materials than his cue lines had. Although those pictures look more like a Viking cue from that era, I won't question the authenticity. One thing, the joint looks like polished nickel silver to me rather than stainless steel, but it's a close call. I'd have to rub a sunshine cloth on it to tell. And I have experience doing that. It's definitely refinished, which makes it difficult to tell.
Now, if you'd come up with a bunch of old McDermott cues of that era with white delrin buttplates and bushka-ring joint collars, I'd be more in doubt of who made the OP's cue, Joss or McDermott. As it is now, although it's not been authenticated, It's still my opinion that it's a Joss product.
One more reason for this is I remember an early 80s two-night exhibition match between Jim Rempe and Mike Sigel at the Texas Cue Club outside of Baltimore. The cue Rempe was using was obviously one of the prototypes of this series, and had very rounded points, with broad veneers, if you can call them that, both in forearm and buttsleeve. It was a high quality cue. No disrespect to McDermott, but there's no way that cue came from them. It had to be a Joss product, given the quality of that time. I got very close up looks at it. I suspect Jim Rempe might still have the cue, but only he could say for sure.
On price of the OP's cue, I sort of agree with you, but might disagree a bit. A quality cuemaker today would charge a lot more than 500 for a nice birdseye cue with linen wrap, steel joint, etc. For this cue to be part of a series of prototypes for King James, if made by Joss at the time, I think it's more than the 500 range. But then again, cue pricing I know is funny. What we think cues are worth is usually not the case, and it depends ultimately on how badly someone wants it.
Anyhow, great info, and great thread. They should all be this good.
All the best,
WW
Now, if you'd come up with a bunch of old McDermott cues of that era with white delrin buttplates and bushka-ring joint collars, I'd be more in doubt of who made the OP's cue, Joss or McDermott. As it is now, although it's not been authenticated, It's still my opinion that it's a Joss product.
One more reason for this is I remember an early 80s two-night exhibition match between Jim Rempe and Mike Sigel at the Texas Cue Club outside of Baltimore. The cue Rempe was using was obviously one of the prototypes of this series, and had very rounded points, with broad veneers, if you can call them that, both in forearm and buttsleeve. It was a high quality cue. No disrespect to McDermott, but there's no way that cue came from them. It had to be a Joss product, given the quality of that time. I got very close up looks at it. I suspect Jim Rempe might still have the cue, but only he could say for sure.
On price of the OP's cue, I sort of agree with you, but might disagree a bit. A quality cuemaker today would charge a lot more than 500 for a nice birdseye cue with linen wrap, steel joint, etc. For this cue to be part of a series of prototypes for King James, if made by Joss at the time, I think it's more than the 500 range. But then again, cue pricing I know is funny. What we think cues are worth is usually not the case, and it depends ultimately on how badly someone wants it.
Anyhow, great info, and great thread. They should all be this good.
All the best,
WW
Definitely an interesting discussion. I am not doubting it is a JOSS either. Just explaining the background behind my thinking on the matter.
I would say the 500 range would be reasonable. The OP did say 350-500 and I said I thought he was not far off. Indeed it should be on the high end of that and hopefully more. It has historic value. But the cue market is so soft right now. Hard to say.
Rempe fans and JOSS fans would be interested in addition to collectors interested in that era in general. Find the right buyer and the price will be stronger.
As it is, I think it is a treasure regardless of any of these matters.
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I would say the 500 range would be reasonable. The OP did say 350-500 and I said I thought he was not far off. Indeed it should be on the high end of that and hopefully more. It has historic value. But the cue market is so soft right now. Hard to say.
Rempe fans and JOSS fans would be interested in addition to collectors interested in that era in general. Find the right buyer and the price will be stronger.
As it is, I think it is a treasure regardless of any of these matters.
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Without further information, these are my final thoughts on the matter.
The below examples are from a 1974 McDermott that was acknowledged by McDermott as genuine. It was made in his garage. It has his name on it, but not the McDermott clover logo. Incidentally, it did not have a weight bolt at all, and was not drilled and tapped for one. The bumper screwed straight onto the wood.
The original owner of this cue watched Jim McDermott working on building this cue in his garage in 1974. This was before the first catalog line of McDermott cues as we know them today. The company history as we commonly know it starts in 1975. McDermott had been working on cues for around ten years at that time and had likely started making cues under apprecticeship in about 1966. I remember that because it is the year I was born so it sticks in my head since I learned it.
So the reality is that there are probably McDermott cues that remain unidentified and lost to history, made during the 8-10 years or so before the company as we know it was established. It may be difficult or impossible to identify most of those cues because they were not of the common construction or features that we now associate with McDermott cues since 1975. I doubt there are many of them. I am personally aware of three that have been positively identified. I have descriptions of all three, detailed history on two, detailed pictures of one, and I have some non-detailed pictures of one.
This is a black delrin McDermott buttplate:
This is a stainless McDermott joint collar. Could be silver? Looks stainless to me. And note the brass 14 pin.
This is a McDermott piloted 5/16x14 shaft joint:
This is a McDermott bumper:
This has to be at least as unusual as a McDermott weight bolt in a JOSS and a non-JOSS looking joint pin in a JOSS. If McDermott had been approached to make the Rempe cues it would not be unlikely he would make the prototypes himself since the company would be busy with the early production runs. That being the case he might have built them however he liked and/or however Rempe liked, perhaps using parts and methods that would seem to not resemble what we now call McDermott cues. Of course, this is all just discussion since Janes has already said he made at least one cue in this thread. Of course, he didn't yet see the cue this thread is about, he saw Sureman's cue.
It does make me wonder if there are any McDermott prototypes out there.
As far as the value of such prototypes or low number cues like these, my personal opinion would be that with condition and level being equal, the value would be very similar between the McDermott version (if it exists) and the JOSS version. We're talking forty year old cues here, each likely made by the hands of two of the great names in cue making, both Hall of Fame members. I personally hold both of them and their work in high regard.
Such things can be fickle though. For example, while McDermott and Janes have some esteem they are often derided as production cue makers. That is odd to me since Janes has been making custom cues all along himself since the late sixties. People seem to be more concerned with Stroud, Scruggs, and Frey cues, or if they have a JOSS whether or not one of those guys worked on their cue. Heck, even Mike Sigel worked there from what I know and learned to make cues. Janes? He is still there. As I see it he is JOSS cues. Interestingly, Stroud, Scruggs, Frey, and Sigel are not in the National nor International HOF. I have not shot with a Sigel cue, but I have shot with the rest. Honestly, they have nothing on JOSS IMHO. But people definitely value them more.
So the value? Depends on who is looking at it. But I think the owner is likely not far off. Although I would definitely get it in Janes' hands for verification and documentation.
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There is literally nothing about this cue that would connect it to the OP cue. They are so far apart in quality and style it's amazing you.are even still considering it.
I am not considering it, as I outwardly said. Janes claimed the work.
It's not about style, it's about construction components and materials.
It was said that McDermott did not use such components, but he definitely did. He was a custom cue maker before he started the McDermott cue operation we know today. The cues he made bear little or no resemblance to what most people see as a McDermott.
That's all.
Again, it's not about style. Many cue makers make different style cues.
I think that my point in the discussion was well proven. I refuted each statement with evidence. McDermott did actually use the methods and materials that were denied in a post.
As far as quality, I am not sure what you mean. You feel the McDermott I pictured is lower quality? Or higher? You haven't even seen the cue. You know nothing of it's construction than what I have shown. And what I have shown demonstrates zero construction flaws. In fact it has never been refinished. I just was not willing to argue about that point. I know the original owner. The cue is actually top notch. Period.
What's amazing is people that feel they know cues don't acknowledge that people like McDermott were custom cue makers way before the businesses that we now know. He didn't just wake up one morning and start McDermott cues, he had around ten years of experience in cue repair and cue making under apprenticeship before he started the business in 1975. That's why I was surprised that folks couldn't even consider that such a cue could be a McDermott, even though it had a McDermott weight bolt. The reasons given were the materials, which I can prove do not exclude the cue as a McDermott.
My point was well made and documented, so your criticism isn't well received.
The culmination of that point is that Janes in fact did not comment on the cue in the original post. If it were mine I would definitely get it into Dan Janes' hands for positive identification and a letter of authenticity with his signature and seal.
How can one argue with that point?
In fact, to me, the cue would be worth easily 10-20% more with Janes' hands on documented inspection than just the discussion in this forum. I am betting any serious cue collector would say the same or similar.
Interestingly, Janes and Stroud did practically wake up one morning and start to make cues. They consulted with Szamboti and Balabushka too. And I am sure that both will tell you they made a lot of fire wood. McDermott was already working on and building cues for 5-6 years before Janes and Stroud got the cue making bug.
I am a bit of a JOSS fan. My own JOSS. Beyond that I am pragmatic. I let the evidence speak. Not my desires or emotions. A lot of people just feel that any JOSS must be better than any McDermott and that simply isn't so.
I feel confident that I could put an unmarked cue from a great maker in your hands that is crap and you would say it is crap. And I am just as confident that I could put an unmarked great cue from a "lesser" maker in your hands and you would say it is great. I am also confident that if I told you the maker first your opinion might be swayed.
Why am I confident of this matter? Because of the post you made. :wink:
There is one last point that I never made, so I guess I'll drop it on you now. At that time JOSS was not making unmarked cues. They had not since about their first year. These cues are unmarked.
People often find something like a Biagio or Brunswick that was made in China and try to sell it as a JOSS because they surf the web and find out JOSS made some. They did make some. But they were marked with the JOSS name and are obviously of JOSS construction.
That these cues are unmrked JOSS cues makes them even more surprising and more of an enigma IMHO. And it also more strongly begs Janes' hands on inspection.
You don't need to share my surprise. Perhaps you just know everything about JOSS and McDermott or at least more than me. But based on my presentation I hardly expect criticism of my own surprise since it is actually based on a pretty thorough foundation of knowledge.
Perhaps you just know more than me.
As I said in an earlier post, I may be naive and just need to learn more.
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Update 6/8/16 I'm looking to sell this cue. Will get it in wanted / for sale asap. Please see post #20 from "Don aka Sure Man Cues"for more info about how this cue. It was part of a custom built batch from Dan Janes of Joss for King James Rempe.... can't ship until after 7/5/16 as I'm in hospital until then.
Thanks, Jimmy
Thanks, Jimmy
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cue now listed in wanted / for sale
Cue is now listed for sale on AZ here is a link to the thread > http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5826852#post5826852
Cue is now listed for sale on AZ here is a link to the thread > http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?p=5826852#post5826852