Trade value just went up a few notches..:wink:
Who made it? Old Jim Rempe Cue Engraved Butt Cap
- Thread starter JIMMY L
- Start date
Trade value just went up a few notches..:wink:
As I mentioned on the first page, Dan Janes would be a possibility, given all the pictures. The Bushka rings make it rare for Joss-made.
A thick joint collar? I think you mean the stainless steel joint. I'm not surprised it's thick. This is a birdseye cue, and the buyer obviously wanted a very heavy cue, 21 ounces.
Joss, in the mid to late 70s, made mostly ebony pointed and butt sleeved cues, which helped achieve the desired weight.
This cue is nothing but maple, and the weight is obviously heavy by the sticker. Somebody wanted a very heavy maple cue, 21 ounces.
There are three places to manage weight on a cue. The joint, the A-joint, and the butt sleeve weight bolt, if needed. Wrap wood could be adjusted, but was maple in those days. This is a few decades ago.
The joint could be made thicker to make the weight higher, and keep the balance about right, a couple inches above the wrap. Nothing about this really surprises me. I suspect Dan Janes used a thicker stainless steel joint to make the weight what the customer wanted. Who knows whether the customer was Jim Rempe, or a customer of Jim's...
All the best,
WW
More than a few notches. In the 70s, Dan did no Bushka rings on a cue that I'm aware of. Except for Jim Rempe, as the evidence shows.
All the best,
Hoot
I for one am surprised. :smile:
I understand the weighting issue. It's not about that. It's those darn metal rings. Don't think I ever saw them in a Janes cue before.
Plus, I NEVER saw a weight bolt like that in a JOSS.
Why would Dan Janes use a McDermott weight bolt?
Also, the nose on that joint pin does NOT look like a JOSS joint pin. Again, why would Janes use a different pin?
But I guess Janes saw the up close pics of the pin and bolt and laid claim to them.
Learn something every day. That's why I love being here. :thumbup:
So....yeah, I am VERY surprised.
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I found this thread with the Adam cues version of this cue. Starts at post #14
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=232087
I wonder how many different styles of cues were built of the 15-20.
Thank you all for the information in this thread. A lot of great stuff posted.
http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=232087
I wonder how many different styles of cues were built of the 15-20.
Thank you all for the information in this thread. A lot of great stuff posted.
If you were from the Maryland area in the mid 70s, and had, or were interested in Joss cues, then you knew that Rempe was a regular with Joss cues. Dan and Tim liked to talk about it. So I'm not surprised they made some cues for him.
All the best,
WW
learn something new everyday.
Sure do.
I know I am just behaving naive and amateurish but I guess I just need to learn more.
I probably shouldn't be so fascinated by finding a JOSS with seemingly non-JOSS parts. More than non-JOSS, the weight bolt is one that so many of us know to be proprietary to another company. I never saw one of those bolts used in a cue produced by anybody other than McDermott. Again, I am not doubting it as we were told Janes saw the pics and claimed the work. Surely he knows his weight bolts.
To me that is a real enigma. Blows me away. The guy who standardized his joint so early in the game and is known to generally standardize his construction methods produced some very non-standard cues "out of the blue".
So I went through all my files on JOSS. I can't find any other with that pin and that bolt. So these cues are very interesting and unique JOSS cues to me.
I think I just have a lot to learn. :sorry:
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Is it possible this is one of the McDermotts?
Only reason I ask is because of the weight bolt
and the sticker on the butt cap.
I'd say there's next to no chance this came from McDermott. They never used delrin for buttplates that I know of, at least in that era. They also didn't do high polish stainless joints. As a matter of fact, through the mid 80s or so, at least with their D series, they didn't use piloted joints.
All the best
WW
Yes. McDermott used delrin for buttplates, in that era.
Yes. McDermott used polished stainless joint collars. In that era.
Yes. McDermott piloted joints, with 5/16x14 pins. In that era.
McDermott produced "true" custom cues in addition to the production cues, and some looked nothing like what we now know to be McDermotts.
I have seen examples of all of the above. But these are highly unusual. As was stated, next to no chance. But I would have thought that about JOSS using the McDermott bolt and the different pin. That's why I am so surprised.
Other things McDermott did back in the day that might surprise is to use WICO vinyl veneer blanks, and pearlized plastic rings, and more.
But again. Sureman said Janes claimed the work. Surely Janes knows his weight bolts and joint pins.
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I'm going to work on sending the cue to Danny and let him have a better look at it and get a letter of authenticity. what is the cue worth? I'm going to ask him all the questions that have been posted about the pin(which looks normal to me) and weight bolt.
P.S. I'm selling a 60's Gina cue with a brass joint purchased from Brunswick back then. Ernie stated it was one of his first 24 made and he used brass joints from Brunswick. Danny Janes may have had parts in his shop he didn't want to use in his cues and used them in the 15-20 he made for King James.
P.S. I'm selling a 60's Gina cue with a brass joint purchased from Brunswick back then. Ernie stated it was one of his first 24 made and he used brass joints from Brunswick. Danny Janes may have had parts in his shop he didn't want to use in his cues and used them in the 15-20 he made for King James.
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Not to doubt someone of your knowledge, but a prototype Rempe group of cues would have been something like mid-70s or so. I'll concede that a piloted joint may have been a McDermott option, as they did some cues with what they called German Silver joints, which were actually nickel silver, no steel in them.
But delrin butt plates, and polished stainless steel joints in that era? You've actually seen McDermotts with those at that time? I have to admit, I've never heard of that; would like to see a picture with that combination. But then again, this thread does show anything is possible, and surprising.
With respect to the McDermott-like weight bolt in this cue, I have a few theories. One, the bolt could have been replaced, but not likely. The more usual Joss bolts were larger in diameter in the threaded section. Two, to achieve that weight in the cue, it could have been the only bolt Dan had that would do it. Three, he may have used this bolt for weight distribution. In other words, since it's a thinner bolt, it probably extends farther up into the butt section than his standard ones did. Probably a small effect, but would not be quite as back-weighted that way.
Just a few thoughts, good fodder to look decades back and try to figure out.
All the best,
WW
Mid seventies is exactly why I say McDermott actually used such materials, because I know for sure he did in that time period. He was working out of his garage at first. The McDermotts we now know bear little resemblance to some of the cues he made then.
You are talking McDermott the company. I am talking McDermott the cuemaker. The man himself.
Yes. Piloted 5/16x14. Yes Delrin butt caps. Yes, polished stainless joint (could be nickel silver).
Saw it. More than once. And I personally know of at least one that was acknowledged by McDermott.
Such McDermotts, like the JOSS in this thread, are really enigmas the way I see it.
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You are talking McDermott the company. I am talking McDermott the cuemaker. The man himself.
Yes. Piloted 5/16x14. Yes Delrin butt caps. Yes, polished stainless joint (could be nickel silver).
Saw it. More than once. And I personally know of at least one that was acknowledged by McDermott.
Such McDermotts, like the JOSS in this thread, are really enigmas the way I see it.
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Without further information, these are my final thoughts on the matter.
The below examples are from a 1974 McDermott that was acknowledged by McDermott as genuine. It was made in his garage. It has his name on it, but not the McDermott clover logo. Incidentally, it did not have a weight bolt at all, and was not drilled and tapped for one. The bumper screwed straight onto the wood.
The original owner of this cue watched Jim McDermott working on building this cue in his garage in 1974. This was before the first catalog line of McDermott cues as we know them today. The company history as we commonly know it starts in 1975. McDermott had been working on cues for around ten years at that time and had likely started making cues under apprecticeship in about 1966. I remember that because it is the year I was born so it sticks in my head since I learned it.
So the reality is that there are probably McDermott cues that remain unidentified and lost to history, made during the 8-10 years or so before the company as we know it was established. It may be difficult or impossible to identify most of those cues because they were not of the common construction or features that we now associate with McDermott cues since 1975. I doubt there are many of them. I am personally aware of three that have been positively identified. I have descriptions of all three, detailed history on two, detailed pictures of one, and I have some non-detailed pictures of one.
This is a black delrin McDermott buttplate:
This is a stainless McDermott joint collar. Could be silver? Looks stainless to me. And note the brass 14 pin.
This is a McDermott piloted 5/16x14 shaft joint:
This is a McDermott bumper:
This has to be at least as unusual as a McDermott weight bolt in a JOSS and a non-JOSS looking joint pin in a JOSS. If McDermott had been approached to make the Rempe cues it would not be unlikely he would make the prototypes himself since the company would be busy with the early production runs. That being the case he might have built them however he liked and/or however Rempe liked, perhaps using parts and methods that would seem to not resemble what we now call McDermott cues. Of course, this is all just discussion since Janes has already said he made at least one cue in this thread. Of course, he didn't yet see the cue this thread is about, he saw Sureman's cue.
It does make me wonder if there are any McDermott prototypes out there.
As far as the value of such prototypes or low number cues like these, my personal opinion would be that with condition and level being equal, the value would be very similar between the McDermott version (if it exists) and the JOSS version. We're talking forty year old cues here, each likely made by the hands of two of the great names in cue making, both Hall of Fame members. I personally hold both of them and their work in high regard.
Such things can be fickle though. For example, while McDermott and Janes have some esteem they are often derided as production cue makers. That is odd to me since Janes has been making custom cues all along himself since the late sixties. People seem to be more concerned with Stroud, Scruggs, and Frey cues, or if they have a JOSS whether or not one of those guys worked on their cue. Heck, even Mike Sigel worked there from what I know and learned to make cues. Janes? He is still there. As I see it he is JOSS cues. Interestingly, Stroud, Scruggs, Frey, and Sigel are not in the National nor International HOF. I have not shot with a Sigel cue, but I have shot with the rest. Honestly, they have nothing on JOSS IMHO. But people definitely value them more.
So the value? Depends on who is looking at it. But I think the owner is likely not far off. Although I would definitely get it in Janes' hands for verification and documentation.
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The below examples are from a 1974 McDermott that was acknowledged by McDermott as genuine. It was made in his garage. It has his name on it, but not the McDermott clover logo. Incidentally, it did not have a weight bolt at all, and was not drilled and tapped for one. The bumper screwed straight onto the wood.
The original owner of this cue watched Jim McDermott working on building this cue in his garage in 1974. This was before the first catalog line of McDermott cues as we know them today. The company history as we commonly know it starts in 1975. McDermott had been working on cues for around ten years at that time and had likely started making cues under apprecticeship in about 1966. I remember that because it is the year I was born so it sticks in my head since I learned it.
So the reality is that there are probably McDermott cues that remain unidentified and lost to history, made during the 8-10 years or so before the company as we know it was established. It may be difficult or impossible to identify most of those cues because they were not of the common construction or features that we now associate with McDermott cues since 1975. I doubt there are many of them. I am personally aware of three that have been positively identified. I have descriptions of all three, detailed history on two, detailed pictures of one, and I have some non-detailed pictures of one.
This is a black delrin McDermott buttplate:
This is a stainless McDermott joint collar. Could be silver? Looks stainless to me. And note the brass 14 pin.
This is a McDermott piloted 5/16x14 shaft joint:
This is a McDermott bumper:
This has to be at least as unusual as a McDermott weight bolt in a JOSS and a non-JOSS looking joint pin in a JOSS. If McDermott had been approached to make the Rempe cues it would not be unlikely he would make the prototypes himself since the company would be busy with the early production runs. That being the case he might have built them however he liked and/or however Rempe liked, perhaps using parts and methods that would seem to not resemble what we now call McDermott cues. Of course, this is all just discussion since Janes has already said he made at least one cue in this thread. Of course, he didn't yet see the cue this thread is about, he saw Sureman's cue.
It does make me wonder if there are any McDermott prototypes out there.
As far as the value of such prototypes or low number cues like these, my personal opinion would be that with condition and level being equal, the value would be very similar between the McDermott version (if it exists) and the JOSS version. We're talking forty year old cues here, each likely made by the hands of two of the great names in cue making, both Hall of Fame members. I personally hold both of them and their work in high regard.
Such things can be fickle though. For example, while McDermott and Janes have some esteem they are often derided as production cue makers. That is odd to me since Janes has been making custom cues all along himself since the late sixties. People seem to be more concerned with Stroud, Scruggs, and Frey cues, or if they have a JOSS whether or not one of those guys worked on their cue. Heck, even Mike Sigel worked there from what I know and learned to make cues. Janes? He is still there. As I see it he is JOSS cues. Interestingly, Stroud, Scruggs, Frey, and Sigel are not in the National nor International HOF. I have not shot with a Sigel cue, but I have shot with the rest. Honestly, they have nothing on JOSS IMHO. But people definitely value them more.
So the value? Depends on who is looking at it. But I think the owner is likely not far off. Although I would definitely get it in Janes' hands for verification and documentation.
.
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Joint
Theirs a older man that comes in Bank Shot in Louisville Ky he has a 1973 or 74 McDermott cue that James made he is the orginal owner. It has a steel joint and white
derlin butt, I love this old cue he has. I didn't think it was a McDermott but he told me he
personal bought it from him back then, and he's a very nice older gentleman. He owns a
Barber shop.
Theirs a older man that comes in Bank Shot in Louisville Ky he has a 1973 or 74 McDermott cue that James made he is the orginal owner. It has a steel joint and white
derlin butt, I love this old cue he has. I didn't think it was a McDermott but he told me he
personal bought it from him back then, and he's a very nice older gentleman. He owns a
Barber shop.