Why 13mm tips?

SoCalRick

SoCalRick

Registered
I posted a question in the main forum (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=66887) asking what size tips folks are using.
But what I'm really struggling with is; should I consider tinkering with the shafts that came with the Tim Scruggs cue that I just bought.
If you look at my other thread you'll see that I come from a predator background (P2 butt w/ Z^2 shaft and earlier I played with both the original Z and 314 shafts all w/UniLoc joints).
So while I have no problem drawing and following with the TS cue, I can move the ball around A LOT more with my predator shaft. I even have some accuracy with the TS shafts putting inside and outside english on the cue ball (using pivot english technique), but again I can impart/carry a lot more spin on the CB with my predator shafts. I'm thinking I might be able to improve the results (with respect to imparting spin on the CB) with my TS shafts if I turn them down a bit from their current 13mm dimension. Do you concur?
So back to my main question; why do shafts come standard with a 13mm tip. Is that the optimal size for playability for the largest audience? Is it a convenient starting point from which customization can be done?
Based on your experience, what percentage of people have their shafts turned down to a smaller tip diameter?
Rick
 
I would say stick to it

I am not a cuemaker but having played with both Preds and maple shafts for some time, here's my take.

It is indeed easier to move the cue ball around with a Pred as opposed to most (but not all) maple shafts. This is partly due to Pred's taper which is longer than most custom shaft tapers including Scruggs which are designed to hit stiff. Preds in comparison are quite flexible which makes it easier to apply any kind of spin (a Meucci pro-taper works on the same principle). Shafts by most custom makers have a taper that grows fat quicker and it requires a better stroke but many players prefer stiffer shafts as it gives them greater consistency.

You are right in saying that shafts are 13 mm in diameter because that is the happy medium range for most players. Most (though not all) players would NOT go above 13mm, and the shaft can be turned down for those who prefer a slimmer taper. It is for this reason that Joss, for instance, comes with default 13.25 mm shafts so that players can customize the taper to their own preferences. Most players I know play with shafts between 12.75mm to 13 mm and only a few go below that.

If you turn down the shafts, you might get more spin in that for the same amount of tip offset on the cueball, you would actually be applying more spin because the smaller tip allows you to hit further off centre as compared to a thicker shaft even though you are aiming at the same point on the CB. But I don't think the results would improve by much as power is primarily down to stroke. Also if you turn the shafts down a little while retaining the same taper/ferrule/tip, I can't see much change in the playing characteristics of the shaft.

Having played with Preds, stiff-tapered maple shafts are going to take some getting used to. I would say stick to it and improve the stroke rather than tweak the taper in the hope that power would be significantly increased. A smaller diameter on a stiff tapered shaft also make it harder to pot longer shots in that you have to make sure you are hitting the exact spot you want on the CB or the CB would squirt off-line.

Just my thoughts.
 
SoCalRick said:
I posted a question in the main forum (http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=66887) asking what size tips folks are using.
But what I'm really struggling with is; should I consider tinkering with the shafts that came with the Tim Scruggs cue that I just bought.
If you look at my other thread you'll see that I come from a predator background (P2 butt w/ Z^2 shaft and earlier I played with both the original Z and 314 shafts all w/UniLoc joints).
So while I have no problem drawing and following with the TS cue, I can move the ball around A LOT more with my predator shaft. I even have some accuracy with the TS shafts putting inside and outside english on the cue ball (using pivot english technique), but again I can impart/carry a lot more spin on the CB with my predator shafts. I'm thinking I might be able to improve the results (with respect to imparting spin on the CB) with my TS shafts if I turn them down a bit from their current 13mm dimension. Do you concur?
So back to my main question; why do shafts come standard with a 13mm tip. Is that the optimal size for playability for the largest audience? Is it a convenient starting point from which customization can be done?
Based on your experience, what percentage of people have their shafts turned down to a smaller tip diameter?
Rick
Click to expand...

Rick,
You seem to have a severe case of 'fugwithititis' - a common malady
among new cue owners.

Cupla' things:
1. as others have said, spin comes from Follow thru, not magic shafts.
IMHO you should spend adequate time getting used to the Scruggs
shafts, and developing better follow thru before you give any
thought to changing the shafts.

2. It sounds like you were happy as a pig in mud with your Pred,
so why did you buy a Scruggs in the first place? Were you
not aware it would hit differently?

3. If all else fails, I'm assuming you know Timmy offers Pred shafts
as an option

HTH
Dale
 
Turning down the shafts slightly might help, but it will still not play like a predator. If you want it to hit a lot like a predator change the ferrules out to a soft material like ABS. This will increase the spin and give that softer feel you are used to. If you turn the 13mm regular maple down to 12.75 like the predator shafts it will not play as stiff as the predator. Sounds like the advice already given to get you a predator shaft might be the easiest and surest way to make yourself happy.
Chris
www.hightowercues.com
www.internationalcuemakers.com
 
pdcue said:
Rick,
You seem to have a severe case of 'fugwithititis' - a common malady
among new cue owners.

Cupla' things:
1. as others have said, spin comes from Follow thru, not magic shafts.
IMHO you should spend adequate time getting used to the Scruggs
shafts, and developing better follow thru before you give any
thought to changing the shafts.

2. It sounds like you were happy as a pig in mud with your Pred,
so why did you buy a Scruggs in the first place? Were you
not aware it would hit differently?

3. If all else fails, I'm assuming you know Timmy offers Pred shafts
as an option

HTH
Dale
Click to expand...

Dale,
Thanks for the feedback, you make a lot of sense. I agree I may be exhibiting 'fugwithititis', I'll try to proceed with caution. Part of my reasons for posting here was to resist taking any immediate action and get some feedback from the Board.
From your questions above:
#1: I'm plan to put in a lot of hours with the TS cue as is, to try to get used to it. I'm already noticing and enjoying some of the uniquenss of it. The feedback is almost "harmonics-like" (e.g. music harmonics - I don't know how you can describe that, it's just the feel/sense that pops up in my brain) when I get a really good hit. I actually can adjust pretty quickly to whichever cue I am using (TS or Predator) and in about 5 minutes I'm not even thinking about which cue I am using. So I am "seeing the light" in some areas of my game.

#2: I wanted to enjoy playing with a nice looking custom cue. Also, Tim's cues are said to "play great" and have a "great hit". So I wanted to experience that first hand. I like a lot of Tim's artistic work, so I focused in on purchasing a TS cue that fit my tastes. Before buying I thought I would just put a Predator shaft on Tim's butt and I would feel pretty comfortable with the playability. Now that I have the cue, I am intrugued by the way the original shafts play and I'm trying to learn how to drive the Ferrari. I just don't know if I will be able to get my game to where it is with my Predator setup. Or what if it is possible to even go to the next level, once I figure out how to work the equipment?

#3: I called Tim and asked if he would put the same custom ring work on some predator shafts if I sent them to him. He said he would, but he wondered why I wanted to use a Predator shaft on his cue (apparently he isn't real fond of them). I felt like I had offended the master by even asking him to do the ring work on the Predator shafts. This may actually be the route that I end up taking, but the verdict is still out on this.
 
I don't think anyone can tell you to change or not to change the diameter of your tip. For example, I play with a 12mm tip, and someone I know even play with a 11mm tip. There aren't much peoples who likes 12mm tip, 11mm tip is like nonsens. The reason why I use a 12mm tip, is because it suits me. I like to train with a lot of english. It's just my kind of game. But when my stroke isn't right, it will punish me really hard. It will force me to hit every shot perfect. To you, it's just depends on how you play. If you can play good with a 13mm, you should never change it to a smaller tip. And if you want to know if a 13mm suits you, the only way is to train with it and see. If a 13mm is really a handicap for you, you can consider to change it.

You are saying that you can put more english with a Pred, but how many times do you play with english, or draw and follow shots? If you hardly play this kind of shot, you shouldn't change the tip and lose some accuracy.

The second, you shouldn't blame the tip, if your stroke is good, you can play shots with english, draw or follow really easy. Try to train with a 13mm tip for drawings and followings. You will surely improve your skills.
 
So back to my main question; why do shafts come standard with a 13mm tip

13 MM has become like the common ground for cuemakers and players. Cuemakers like it b/c turning the shaft smaller might make it more suscepible to warpage. Players accept 13MM b/c it can always be turned down and not too many complain it's too thin.
 
i think you will get a little more spin if you cut them down to 12.75mm or so.maybe a different tip also.i know some people say it is all stoke and a tip or shaft diameter will not affect spin,but guess what they are full of shite.if you cut one of your shafts down to 12.75 and put a Kamui soft or Med/Soft on i will bet money and lay odds it spins the ball more than it does now.for myself i seem to have better aim on long cutshots with a smaller diameter shaft.i don't want to speak for anyone else,b/c it may be in my head or just my style,but i definitely have better accuracy with smaller shafts.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top