Why aren't people more picky about LD shaft weights?
- Thread starter BillPorter
- Start date
This is a good statement. If you play well with a LD shaft and it suits you what difference does it make about balance and weight.
I use a 314-2 Predator shaft on my Tim Scruggs cue and i'm very pleased with it. I have 4 ivory ferrule shafts for my cue from Tim Scruggs that match my cue and they play fine, but I play a little better with the Predator shaft. If the balance is different using the Predator shaft I can't tell it, but what I can tell is i'm not missing shots with english because of deflection and that's the bottom line for me.
James
It looks like some people do make an effort, when buying an LD shaft, to match the weight of the original shaft. It is sometimes not easy to do, but if you like the weight and balance of the cue with the original shaft, it makes sense to try to retain that weight and balance with the LD shaft.
On the other hand, some seem to be relatively indifferent to the possibility that weight and balance are likely to be different with an LD shaft. It's tough to argue with the position of the player who simply says, "I play better and enjoy playing more with my LD shaft and don't care about weight and balance."
So maybe I have answered my original question to some degree as it turns out that some people ARE picky about LD shaft weights. And others aren't. Different strokes, etc.
On the other hand, some seem to be relatively indifferent to the possibility that weight and balance are likely to be different with an LD shaft. It's tough to argue with the position of the player who simply says, "I play better and enjoy playing more with my LD shaft and don't care about weight and balance."
So maybe I have answered my original question to some degree as it turns out that some people ARE picky about LD shaft weights. And others aren't. Different strokes, etc.
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1165~r.96035782
I've bought 5 or 6 of them as people who see them buy them from me. They work great and are cheap as dirt!
i ran into this problem once myself. i ended up taping nickels to my shaft until the weight felt right
Doesn't matter if the shafts the same weight, the weight is in a different spot so the overall feel and balance changes from stock.
I agree that whatever works works. I played LD shafts for quite some time myself after a long break from the game and coming back to all the hype about them. I played fine with them for alot of that time too till I went back , just for fun , and played some of the older cues I had put away and realized what I was missing. Now I can't imagine playing one again . . . and I have like half a dozen matched to cues and a few partials still in the plastic.
I think , however, that Bills point was mostly that you hear so much nit picking about a certain cues 'hit' and 'feel , different joints , ferrules (ivory or not) and all sorts of precise determination of specs and such about customs cues but then so many go right and screw on a completely generic aftermarket shaft and think nothing of it.
Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .
I agree that whatever works works. I played LD shafts for quite some time myself after a long break from the game and coming back to all the hype about them. I played fine with them for alot of that time too till I went back , just for fun , and played some of the older cues I had put away and realized what I was missing. Now I can't imagine playing one again . . . and I have like half a dozen matched to cues and a few partials still in the plastic.
I think , however, that Bills point was mostly that you hear so much nit picking about a certain cues 'hit' and 'feel , different joints , ferrules (ivory or not) and all sorts of precise determination of specs and such about customs cues but then so many go right and screw on a completely generic aftermarket shaft and think nothing of it.
Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .
You nailed it. By the way, would you go weigh all the LD shafts, including the partials, and send me a couple of heavy ones? Thanks!:grin-square:I think , however, that Bills point was mostly that you hear so much nit picking about a certain cues 'hit' and 'feel , different joints , ferrules (ivory or not) and all sorts of precise determination of specs and such about customs cues but then so many go right and screw on a completely generic aftermarket shaft and think nothing of it.
Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .
Doesn't matter if the shafts the same weight, the weight is in a different spot so the overall feel and balance changes from stock.
I agree that whatever works works. I played LD shafts for quite some time myself after a long break from the game and coming back to all the hype about them. I played fine with them for alot of that time too till I went back , just for fun , and played some of the older cues I had put away and realized what I was missing. Now I can't imagine playing one again . . . and I have like half a dozen matched to cues and a few partials still in the plastic.
I think , however, that Bills point was mostly that you hear so much nit picking about a certain cues 'hit' and 'feel , different joints , ferrules (ivory or not) and all sorts of precise determination of specs and such about customs cues but then so many go right and screw on a completely generic aftermarket shaft and think nothing of it.
Not that there's anything wrong with that . . .
i really didnt even think about it like that until you posted it in black and white. that is kind of funny
Follow up
I was able to get a 3.8 oz. Radial pin 314 shaft from Joe Nielsen at Nielsen Billiards for a cue that had a 3.9 oz. original shaft. And Greg, at Billiard Warehouse, found a 4.3 oz. 314 5/16 by 14 shaft for my Joss which is exactly the weight of the original shaft!
I was able to get a 3.8 oz. Radial pin 314 shaft from Joe Nielsen at Nielsen Billiards for a cue that had a 3.9 oz. original shaft. And Greg, at Billiard Warehouse, found a 4.3 oz. 314 5/16 by 14 shaft for my Joss which is exactly the weight of the original shaft!
My cue maker made my cue with a 314-2 shaft from the start. I don't have nor want a standard shaft. We worked together to get the balance and weight right on the cue. Love it.
RBC
Deceased
Bill Porter,
Thanks for the email heads up about this thread! I really like these kinds of discussions.
I am surprised that there seems to be so much variation in some of the LD shafts. I haven't measured every shaft that we have produced, but ours have really held pretty steady. Our non insert shafts run from 3.5 to 3.7 ounces, leaning more to the 3.5 side. Our insert shafts run 3.7 to 3.9 ounces, again leaning closer to the lower number more often.
I have been doing some calculations on what kind of a difference adding weight will make to our cue shafts. The neat thing is that you can calculate the balance point of the cue if you have the weight and the balance point of each of the parts, the butt and the shaft.
My cue weighs 19 ounces and balances at 19" from the butt, which is my preference by the way. It is our 308 Model with an OB-2 cue shaft.
The formula is actually a calculation of torque around a fixed point. I use the butt end of the cue for that point. Basically, you weigh each part and find it's balance point. Then you determine the distance from that balance point to the butt end of the cue. The formula looks like this:
M1 = Mass of the cue shaft
L1 = Length from the shaft balance point to the end of the cue (the butt)
M2 = mass of the butt
L2 = Length of the butt balance point to the end of the cue
(M1*L1)+(M2*L2)
divided by
M1*M2
This gives the overall balance in inches from the back of the cue.
My cue works like this
(3.7*39.5)+(15.1*14)
divided by
3.7*15.1
Equals 19.0 inches
If I add .4 ounces to the shaft, at the joint the numbers look like this
(4.1*38.5)+(15.1*14)
divided by
4.1*15.1
Equals 19.2 inches, or a difference of .2 inches
The funny thing is that most conventional shafts have a much fatter and thicker taper than our cue shafts and many other LD shafts. I believe that a significant amount of the weight difference comes from the taper. The same 4.1 ounce shaft that balances 1 inch closer to the tip will move the balance point of the cue another .2 inches.
So, I guess the conclusion is that yes, LD shafts that are lighter than conventional shafts will change the balance point of the cue, but typically it will be a small amount, no more than .4" in the numbers I gave here. But, if a player uses a conventional cue shaft that uses a longer thinner taper, moving to a LD shaft may not change it very much, if at all. Often, what a player is looking for is the thinner taper, so he will change his balance point even with a conventional type of shaft.
I hope that answers some questions, or at least creates some!
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
Thanks for the email heads up about this thread! I really like these kinds of discussions.
I am surprised that there seems to be so much variation in some of the LD shafts. I haven't measured every shaft that we have produced, but ours have really held pretty steady. Our non insert shafts run from 3.5 to 3.7 ounces, leaning more to the 3.5 side. Our insert shafts run 3.7 to 3.9 ounces, again leaning closer to the lower number more often.
I have been doing some calculations on what kind of a difference adding weight will make to our cue shafts. The neat thing is that you can calculate the balance point of the cue if you have the weight and the balance point of each of the parts, the butt and the shaft.
My cue weighs 19 ounces and balances at 19" from the butt, which is my preference by the way. It is our 308 Model with an OB-2 cue shaft.
The formula is actually a calculation of torque around a fixed point. I use the butt end of the cue for that point. Basically, you weigh each part and find it's balance point. Then you determine the distance from that balance point to the butt end of the cue. The formula looks like this:
M1 = Mass of the cue shaft
L1 = Length from the shaft balance point to the end of the cue (the butt)
M2 = mass of the butt
L2 = Length of the butt balance point to the end of the cue
(M1*L1)+(M2*L2)
divided by
M1*M2
This gives the overall balance in inches from the back of the cue.
My cue works like this
(3.7*39.5)+(15.1*14)
divided by
3.7*15.1
Equals 19.0 inches
If I add .4 ounces to the shaft, at the joint the numbers look like this
(4.1*38.5)+(15.1*14)
divided by
4.1*15.1
Equals 19.2 inches, or a difference of .2 inches
The funny thing is that most conventional shafts have a much fatter and thicker taper than our cue shafts and many other LD shafts. I believe that a significant amount of the weight difference comes from the taper. The same 4.1 ounce shaft that balances 1 inch closer to the tip will move the balance point of the cue another .2 inches.
So, I guess the conclusion is that yes, LD shafts that are lighter than conventional shafts will change the balance point of the cue, but typically it will be a small amount, no more than .4" in the numbers I gave here. But, if a player uses a conventional cue shaft that uses a longer thinner taper, moving to a LD shaft may not change it very much, if at all. Often, what a player is looking for is the thinner taper, so he will change his balance point even with a conventional type of shaft.
I hope that answers some questions, or at least creates some!
Royce Bunnell
www.obcues.com
it works out well for me, i like light cues (arond 18-18.5oz). most cues i buy are in the 19oz range. my z shaft is usually at least 1/2 oz lighter so it puts me in the ball park. when having a cue made, i let the cuemaker know ahead of time that i will be putting an (insert your shaft weight here :grin-square weighted shaft on it and need it to weigh around (insert total weight here). this will usually keep the balance where it should be.
weighted shaft on it and need it to weigh around (insert total weight here). this will usually keep the balance where it should be.
Terrific post, Royce! I was hoping you had the time to look at this thread and give your views and insights. Your calculations about the balance point are really nifty and confirm my suspicion that adding (or subtracting) half an ounce or so won't change significantly. I don't think I am very aware of the balance point of a cue unless it is really butt heavy, but I do notice differences in weight when this difference amounts to half an ounce or more. Thanks again for "chiming in."