Why CTE is silly

[JB Cases]

I think we both know (and so does everybody else) that's exactly what it means.

I guess you'll find out in a couple weeks when you can set up the shots and I can shoot them. We can video it and you can point out where I am not doing what I describe.

And CTE isn't. You keep trying to dodge that distinction because you know it's meaningful. It's the difference between a system that everybody understands and can use immediately and another that isn't systematic at all in that sense.

Yes, use immediately and spend a lifetime correcting for the deficiencies.

I actually find it quite an interesting contrast between GB which is easy to diagram and hard to master and CTE/Hal's methods which are thought to be hard to diagram but easy to master.

In fact CTE can be diagrammed in simple to follow steps.

Bullshit.

pj <- pardon my bluntness
chgo

Your bluntness is fine but are you calling me a liar? Are you saying that Hal Houle did not ask me and other not to try and describe in detail how to do his systems online?

Dr. Dave says he has spent time on the phone with Hal, where is Dave's published description of CTE as taught by Hal then? Surely he would the one out of all of all us who would be most eager to print the description straight from the source, or am I wrong about that?

 

[BRKNRUN]

Joey is probably busy writing up a very positive review of the latest product he got in the mail (for free so let me step in for a moment and be his spokesmodel:

The part where you made fun of Hal.

Lou Figueroa

Hmmmmm.......well...I was the one who made the post Dave was referring to...so somehow...I have been made part of the debatable "worst post ever".....Hey!! I am famous....or is that imfamous...

Anyway...That post was NOT to make fun of Hal...I am sorry you took it that way....I was merly creating some levety as at the time of that post...the thread was getting out of hand...and people were starting to throw out the "religion" card...

For the record I am a fan of Hal....and I am also a believer since I use the 3-line system taught to me by Mos.....er Hal himself.....As a matter of fact after my first call to Hal I started using the 3-line system....out of the blue one morning...Hal appeared before me...(ok he just called me).......we ended up chatting for about an hour...He told me the story of the water tower and the rifle man......that is when the seystem stared to click for me...He also told me about "shish ke bob" for making real thin cuts....I later found out that the shish ke bob method is a form of CTE...(although for me it is used from 1/4 CB)....super thin cuts is the only time I use a form of CTE.

Always using CTE does not work for me......It has too many moving parts....Hal even mentioned at one time that some people only need certain methods to make balls...others need a different method...That is probably the reason why Hal has multiple methods for pocketing balls....

The reality is that Hal is probably sitting back ....wherever he is....laughing at this thread.

The other reality is that CTE is just a "faction" of the one true Hal Houle aiming system....the 3-line system....It is strange that it used to be the 3-line system that got abused by non believers....Then CTE came along and took away the abuse.....

Perhaps at some point...Hal will part the beer water and allow the CTE believers to escape...:wink:

 

[JB Cases]

If the CTE mob ever comes after me, I'll just claim that I've seen the light and I'm a true believer. Hopefully, that will save me.

Until then, I'm still "skeptical" of many of the claims. :grin-square:

Regards,
Dave

What claims would those be?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.


How about the top five?

You see when you couch the whole thing in terms like "mob" and "religion" it shows that you are not only skeptical but that you are very condescending as well.

I have a TON of respect for the the work you have done demonstrating the various concepts in pool on high speed video. You work SO FAR should land you in the Hall of Fame at some point in my mind.

What I don't understand is how you then take the license to be so rude about this subject.

Dave Segal has made you NUMEROUS offers to show you everything he knows.

You're an academic, you're an engineer. You are obviously very interested in how stuff works on the pool table and you are trying to make some money selling your collected knowledge.

Why does this not make you curious enough to go to the source, which would be Dave Segal at this point, and get all the available information, learn it and absorb it, film it if you can, AND THEN explain it with your best analysis?

I can't do it. I am not an engineer or even a molecular biologist. I barely know how leather is made. Coefficient or Restitution to me has to do payment terms on invoices. I don't have high-speed video equipment or a bunch of students to carry out experiments. You do.

You are becoming one of the few people in the USA with a large volume of data on the physics of pocket billiards. You probably have more video evidence than anyone in the world.

So I really don't understand why you don't attack this issue with the same veracity as you have dissected the rest of pool.

Instead you prefer to make snide comments like CTE-mob, and call CTE users self-deluding (jumping on that bandwagon).

Well in the words of some movie mob hitman, "It's just not professional."

 

[lfigueroa]

Hmmmmm.......well...I was the one who made the post Dave was referring to...so somehow...I have been made part of the debatable "worst post ever".....Hey!! I am famous....or is that imfamous...

Anyway...That post was NOT to make fun of Hal...I am sorry you took it that way....I was merly creating some levety as at the time of that post...the thread was getting out of hand...and people were starting to throw out the "religion" card...

For the record I am a fan of Hal....and I am also a believer since I use the 3-line system taught to me by Mos.....er Hal himself.....As a matter of fact after my first call to Hal I started using the 3-line system....out of the blue one morning...Hal appeared before me...(ok he just called me).......we ended up chatting for about an hour...He told me the story of the water tower and the rifle man......that is when the seystem stared to click for me...He also told me about "shish ke bob" for making real thin cuts....I later found out that the shish ke bob method is a form of CTE...(although for me it is used from 1/4 CB)....super thin cuts is the only time I use a form of CTE.

Always using CTE does not work for me......It has too many moving parts....Hal even mentioned at one time that some people only need certain methods to make balls...others need a different method...That is probably the reason why Hal has multiple methods for pocketing balls....

The reality is that Hal is probably sitting back ....wherever he is....laughing at this thread.

The other reality is that CTE is just a "faction" of the one true Hal Houle aiming system....the 3-line system....It is strange that it used to be the 3-line system that got abused by non believers....Then CTE came along and took away the abuse.....

Perhaps at some point...Hal will part the beer water and allow the CTE believers to escape...:wink:

My apologies.

And me, well, I didn't take it that way, but Joey is a much more sensitive new age kinda guy than I am.

Lou Figueroa

 

[BRKNRUN]

What claims would those be?

1.
2.
3.
4.
5.


How about the top five?

"

Not really claims why it does not work but this is my perfect chance to ask the questions that I have problems with.

1 - Why the variance in pivot length?
2 - How do you determin the correct pivot length?
3 - How do you apply the system for making balls in the side pockets or to hit specific "non corner" spots?
4 - When you pivot...does your head turn with the cue or does the cue only pivot....and why?
5 - If you always pivot back to center CB...Why is it necessary to look back up to the OB?

Those are my top 5 questions about CTE

 

[JoeyA]

Which part: The "believer" joke, the link to benefits, or the quote from BRKNRUN's post?

If you going to accuse me of making one of the "WORST POSTS EVER" I would like you to explain yourself; otherwise, your post is one of the "WORST POSTS EVER." [/QUOTE

I don't mind Dave. I'll give it a try.

It's your poor sense of humor and your attempt to belittle others whom you barely know.

Mostly it is your complete lack of respect for others who share a different religious belief system than yours.

Your religious analogies and references are despicable in my opinion and far from what I expected from you.

I hope that was clear enough for you.

 

[LAMas]

PJ,

Just face it ... you're just not a "believer.":grin-square:
It can be difficult to change the thinking or logic of a true "believer." In fact, it is usually not helpful to even try.

But even if CTE is just a religion, many people find comfort in and benefit from religion, so maybe CTE is a good thing after all. At a minimum, it does provide the same benefits many "aiming systems" provide.

BTW, below is an earlier quote you might think is relevant to John's statement.

from BRKNRUN:

Ok...You know people talk like CTE is some sort of Religion....I did some research and this is what I found out.

One day God called Hal to the top of the mountain and he gave him the first part of his new system of pool aiming laws for his people - The Center To Edge method. (CTE summarized the absolutes of spiritual and moral shot makeing that God intended for his people.)

God continued to give direction to his people through Hal, including the civil and ceremonial laws for controlling their CB. Eventually God called Hal to the mountain for 40 days and 40 nights. During this time he gave him instructions for the tabernacle and the CTE instructions. When God finished speaking to Hal on Mount Ivory Rock, he gave him two tablets of stone inscribed by the very finger of God. They contained the CTE instructions.

Meanwhile, the people of the pool world had become impatient while waiting for Hal to return with the instructions from God. Hal had been gone for so long that the people gave up on him and begged Stan to make them Pro-1 so they could worship. So Stan collected offerings of gold from all the people and made a instruction video in the form of Pro-1. Then they held a festival and bowed down to worship their idol. So quickly they had fallen into the idolatry they were accustomed to in the pool world and disobeyed God's CTE instructions.

When Hal came down from the mountain with the tablets of stone, his anger burned when he saw the people given over to idolatry. He threw down the two tablets, smashing them to pieces at the foot of the mountain.

Now you all know why there is not complete written instructions for CTE.​

"O my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore, nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant; but I am slow of speech, and of a slow tongue." ("I am so bad an orator that I cannot talk effectively even when divinely inspired.")

 

[GetMeThere]

It's your poor sense of humor and your attempt to belittle others whom you barely know.

I think there's a major problem through this thread--and this topic: People who confuse belittling an IDEA with belittling a PERSON. Once in this thread JB referred to me as someone who was "calling people names." So, I started to look through the thread (since I'm only interested in IDEAS, and not the people who offer them). I was called ONE NAME AFTER ANOTHER, by four or five posters in a row--and made only rational, and even friendly responses. Finally I'd had enough sh*t and DID start casting some personal aspersions.

But I'll repeat, the real problem (the real REVEALING problem, btw) is posters who take criticism of CTE as PERSONAL ATTACKS ON THEMSELVES.

Would the same thing happen if somebody said....oh, Kamui tips are lousy? I don't think so.

The EMOTIONAL response of so many posters to criticism of an IDEA suggests....well, it doesn't make them look particularly objective, IMO.

 

[LAMas]

GetMeThere,
Thanks for starting this thread and the detailed charts and explainations. They go to show why pool is difficult to master for many. Even if one memorizes the offsets, fractions and numbers, there is squirt, deflection, cut induced throw etc. to be mastered as well.

My take away is that as the distance between the CB and OB ball increases, the distances/fractions decrease proportionately - why far shots are harder at greater distances - the target gets smaller.

What I agree with about CTE is that it is a discernible start for I can place my cue tip at the discernible center of the CB and aim it on a line to the discernible edge of the OB at 3:00 and 9:00 o'clock. From there it gets more difficult for there is a shift to the right or left by some finite distance and then the pivot back to the center of the CB pre shot.

If I start at the CTE line, which would be correct for a 30 degree cut shot, and laterally shift my cue tip until it is now aimed at the center of the OB, pivot back to the center of of the CB and shoot - I would be close to achieving a thin ~85 to 90 degree cut on the OB.

The two points of aim are the discernible edge and center of the OB that becomes a smaller distance to be traversed as the OB is farther away from the CB. I can tune this for a normal bridge distance in back of the CB with practice.

Having said this, I can create a fractional table to solve for the amount of pre pivot cue shift (never more than to the center of the OB), required for the angles from 30 degrees to 90 degrees.

I has been said that the straight in shot doesn't require CTE and I concur - aim the center of the CB to the center of the OB regardless of the separation between the two.

At this point, I find CTE gives diminishing returns for angles from 0 to 30 degrees and would double the distance on the OB from the center of the OB to the outside of the contact point on the OB that would send the OB to the desired target/pocket.

But I digress.

:smile:

 

[JB Cases]

I am going to give you my answers along with the disclaimer: I don't teach CTE - I have never had a comprehensive in person lesson about CTE - and so my answers don't mean anything.

And also to reiterate what you said these are not CLAIMS. So I don't want to let Dr. Dave off the hook. I would like him to list the top five CLAIMS that he says CTE or CTE proponents make that he has issues with.

Not really claims why it does not work but this is my perfect chance to ask the questions that I have problems with.

1 - Why the variance in pivot length?

Personally, I find that the "pivot" is a red herring in this whole discussion. If one does the first two steps then the pivot itself comes automatically. This is my PERSONAL observation and has nothing to do with anything anyone else has said about CTE to include ESPECIALLY those who know it very well.

2 - How do you determin the correct pivot length?

I don't think that there is such a thing. Again, for me personally when I use Hal's aiming methods (which seem similar to CTE) then I find that I can put my bridge hand down on the aiming line it gives me anywhere from very near to very far from the cue ball and it's still on the right line.

3 - How do you apply the system for making balls in the side pockets or to hit specific "non corner" spots?

This has to do with how you are facing the object ball and thus which "edge" of the object ball you are looking at. It is so very simple when you are standing at the table with the balls in front of you. That's the best answer I can give you as to making balls in the side.

For shooting balls to places other than the pockets I will say that once you begin to see lines then it gets really easy to see the pocket line and make adjustments from there.

4 - When you pivot...does your head turn with the cue or does the cue only pivot....and why?

I can't answer this because I don't know. I think that when I am getting into position that my whole body pivots along with the cue. I need to film myself shooting to see this.

5 - If you always pivot back to center CB...Why is it necessary to look back up to the OB?

I suppose it would be to double check. For me I look at the object ball so that I can let me stoke follow that line kind of how you steer a car to follow distant lines rather than trying to steer by looking only five feet in front of the car.

I find that if I extend the line beyond the object ball and send the cueball along that path that my stroke is better, more pure if you will.

I think that carpenter's rule is a good one to apply here. Measure twice and cut once.

So even if you are using CTE it's not a bad idea to look up and double check how everything looks. It's always possible that you could be "off" during the first steps which then of course affect the resulting aiming line.

I think that this is pretty much the same with any aiming method.

If you were to determine the aiming line using Ghost Ball then you wouldn't get down on center cue ball and fire without looking at the OB anymore.

Well at least I wouldn't do that unless it was for practice or playing around.

 

[JB Cases]

The main reason why CTE is COMPLETE BULLSHIT (and, I’m sure, made up as somebody’s joke to show how dumb people are),

(non relevant parts snipped)

So in the opening post by you people who are proponents of CTE are labeled as dumb and gullible. Also by making the all caps statement that CTE is "COMPLETE BULLSHIT" you are also labeling all those who give instruction in CTE and like systems as frauds.

And this is not name-calling? Am I somehow not reading this correctly?

 

[GetMeThere]

So in the opening post by you people who are proponents of CTE are labeled as dumb and gullible. Also by making the all caps statement that CTE is "COMPLETE BULLSHIT" you are also labeling all those who give instruction in CTE and like systems as frauds.

And this is not name-calling? Am I somehow not reading this correctly?

The problem is, when you think of something in those terms, it means that NO IDEA CAN BE CRITICIZED--because it would ALWAYS have implications for those who may follow (or those who created) the idea.

If I offered the idea that only white people should play in important tournaments, I'm sure you would post that was "COMPLETE BULLSHIT." Yet, fifty years ago, that was how things were. And it CHANGED, no doubt, because of people insisting it was a bad idea--and I'm sure there were LOADS of people who were VERY offended by the idea of non-whites playing in tournaments--who felt belittled that people would insist they use the same facilities as non-whites.

Simply, ideas have to be subject to criticism--even withering criticism. There'd be no getting anywhere otherwise; that's what it would be like (I imagine) in North Korea.

Some ideas, schemes, methods, systems ARE BS--it's difficult to believe that you could think otherwise. Why do I have the feeling that you wouldn't be so protective of ideas that you didn't like yourself....?

 

[Mikjary]

Not really claims why it does not work but this is my perfect chance to ask the questions that I have problems with.

1 - Why the variance in pivot length?
2 - How do you determin the correct pivot length?
3 - How do you apply the system for making balls in the side pockets or to hit specific "non corner" spots?
4 - When you pivot...does your head turn with the cue or does the cue only pivot....and why?
5 - If you always pivot back to center CB...Why is it necessary to look back up to the OB?

Those are my top 5 questions about CTE

1-There is no variance or "effective" pivot length.
2-The correct pivot length is what you learn to be accurate with and keep consistent.
3-You pivot from both sides of the cueball. You know where you want to send the object ball and you line up accordingly.
4-Your head should not turn unless you employ a hip pivot which turns your entire torso. You can also pivot only your arm. Your choice.
5-As John said you will want to double check your alignment and pre-shot pivot. IOW you may have to repeat your pre-shot routine.

 

[JoeyInCali]

21 Pages.
This should be a sticky.

 

[LAMas]

1-There is no variance or "effective" pivot length.
2-The correct pivot length is what you learn to be accurate with and keep consistent.
3-You pivot from both sides of the cueball. You know where you want to send the object ball and you line up accordingly.
4-Your head should not turn unless you employ a hip pivot which turns your entire torso. You can also pivot only your arm. Your choice.
5-As John said you will want to double check your alignment and pre-shot pivot. IOW you may have to repeat your pre-shot routine.

But, how about the offset/parallel shift of the the cue shaft pre pivot? Have you concluded that it is 1/2 tip, one tip...or? That is the nut for CTE.
Assuming that the bridge is your normal location behind the CB, then it is the offset that changes for all angles and separations between the CB and OB.

Can this changing separation be tabulated or must it be learned by trial and error; or is it just by feeling?

Thanks in advance for your answer.

 

[LAMas]

21 Pages.
This should be a sticky.

It's only 414 posts. The other CTE thread ran over 700.:wink:

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Which part: The "believer" joke, the link to benefits, or the quote from BRKNRUN's post?

If you going to accuse me of making one of the "WORST POSTS EVER" I would like you to explain yourself; otherwise, your post is one of the "WORST POSTS EVER."

JoeyA:

I don't mind Dave. I'll give it a try.

It's your poor sense of humor and your attempt to belittle others whom you barely know.

Mostly it is your complete lack of respect for others who share a different religious belief system than yours.

Your religious analogies and references are despicable in my opinion and far from what I expected from you.

I hope that was clear enough for you.

Funny... I always thought Dave was too polite.

Your outrage about the religion remarks is years late. That comparison has been made ever since the Houleigan Uprising started the Aiming System Wars way back in the last century.

pj
chgo

 

[manwon]

21 Pages.
This should be a sticky.

No it shouldn't this should be the poster child for what a thread should never be, no one really cares who has the biggest Pecker!!!!!!!

I think that this thread should be titled who has the biggest one or who is the most psychotic I think that we need to find a psychiatrist to referee this lunatic asylum!!

 

[AtLarge]

21 Pages.
This should be a sticky.

28 so far on my set-up!

 

[JB Cases]

Unfortunately, that's correct. CTE is sucker radar...

Delusion is what those need who wish to live in a fantasy world. If one wishes to actually pocket balls, he'll be needing something other than CTE.

Then again, VERY often, what people say they want really isn't what they want--and often what they really want is a secret even from themselves.

But in that case they're not actually USING CTE to pocket balls, they're using it...some other way, and pocketing balls probably by feel/experience.

If one tries to make balls, and plays a lot, eventually he'll make a lot of balls. What he's using is feel/experience--and it's not informative (or objectively true) if he insists on calling it something else.

Furthermore, IMO, it's ALWAYS beneficial to purge fantasy from your mind. For one, doing so then allows you access to the REAL source of whatever ability you ACTUALLY have--while at the same time clearing a little extra space in your head

Nope. My claim is in knowing how to think. I've read MANY comments and discussion from people who advocate CTE, and all, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, are PAINFULLY vague about it--even when they claim to be trying to be forthcoming.

After seeing enough of that, it's impossible to avoid the conclusion that there's no basis for what they're saying--and that they have no specific idea WHAT it is they think they're doing. Aiming is the ANTITHESIS of vagueness. A vague aiming system can't possibly be precise--it's a logical impossibility.




Uh, yeah. This may come as a shock to you, but some people sell snake oil--and make a good buck doing it. Were you raised in a convent or something?




Please point out what is ridiculous about the spread sheet. Now THAT, I would find interesting. It's always possible to muck up spreadsheets! Please point out my errors and I'll fix them.




Actually, the world is full of cult members who say EXACTLY the same thing: If you "really understood" it would be perfectly clear; and people who knock it just don't understand.

An awful lot of pockets have been emptied--and linen eagerly dropped --from that kind of cult-like attitude.

Instead of giving that kind of defense of CTE, why not give a CONCRETE, LOGICAL, ANALYTICAL one? One that could convince anyone who could read, write, and do 'rithmetic?

Again, I have to wonder why a RATIONAL defense is never offered for CTE. Instead only emotional, "cult" defenses are forthcoming. A reasonable person has to wonder why that is...

I haven't seen any evidence of that, as a matter of fact. I HAVE heard THOUSANDS of people claim that JESUS miraculously healed them--even though objective studies of the efficacy of prayer have demonstrated otherwise.

There's simply no limit to people's ability to delude themselves.

Well...everything about it IS like a religion. First, seekers went to Hal Houle's hermitage to seek his wisdom. And OH that light shone brightly in their eyes--so much so that they came back mumbling! Not much specific to say, but it's just so WONDERFUL when you BELIEVE--and it solves ALL your problems when you really GET IT!

Ya. You can NEVER find a really AUTHENTIC witch doctor when you need one! Hey, I can't even get anyone to explain to me how ASTROLOGY works. I guess people who can explain that stuff are too busy working on really IMPORTANT things...

The problem is, when you think of something in those terms, it means that NO IDEA CAN BE CRITICIZED--because it would ALWAYS have implications for those who may follow (or those who created) the idea.

If I offered the idea that only white people should play in important tournaments, I'm sure you would post that was "COMPLETE BULLSHIT." Yet, fifty years ago, that was how things were. And it CHANGED, no doubt, because of people insisting it was a bad idea--and I'm sure there were LOADS of people who were VERY offended by the idea of non-whites playing in tournaments--who felt belittled that people would insist they use the same facilities as non-whites.

Simply, ideas have to be subject to criticism--even withering criticism. There'd be no getting anywhere otherwise; that's what it would be like (I imagine) in North Korea.

Some ideas, schemes, methods, systems ARE BS--it's difficult to believe that you could think otherwise. Why do I have the feeling that you wouldn't be so protective of ideas that you didn't like yourself....?

Why do so many discussions on the wonderful internet end up with people arguing about how to argue?

You made a point a few posts ago where you said that people cannot distinguish between a critique of the system and critique of them.

You are wrong. People can distinguish between those things when you make that distinction in your critique.

You did not. You critiqued the system as not accurate and the people who use/believe in it as dumb and gullible.

Now you want to backpedal and toss up a red herring using a civil rights reference? And you get on my case for using acupuncture?

I thought we were sticking to scientific concepts here and not social justice topics?

Your initial premise is that CTE is "complete bullshit". Based on your accuracy chart and what you contend is a lack of discussion on how CTE contends with your chart.

Your secondary assertion is then that people must be dumb and gullible if they then believe this "complete bullshit".

Thus you seem to have the idea that your initial premise is satisfied because no one will show you a diagram proving that CTE is accurate for the ranges on your charts.

Which then means that you get to throw out testimony as evidence because you have already labeled anyone who says that they use CTE as gullible and stupid IF they won't step and provide you with a diagram and a set of directions.

So you have set yourself up in a neat little logic bubble that you can't step outside of without violating one or both of your premises.

Good luck with that. Good thing you're anonymous because then you can come back later as someone else once you have learned that both of your premises are wrong.