Why CTE is silly

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And THIS is YOUR OPINION . Or BS. When you make post such as the one
I quoted, You are posting bold face lies. Talk about something you actually know about. You just want to show off and brag about yourself and use some big words.
. But you are still a pool IDIOT.

I suppose you're referring to the top numerical list:

1) CTE is NOT an aiming system
2) CTE does NOT give the "exact" point to aim.
3) People who believe CTE TELLS them where to aim are indeed deluded.
It's quite a bit more than an opinion. On real-world pool tables, if one claims an aiming method that does not include the position of the pocket (or some other stationary reference, like a dot, for example) relative to the OB in the "system process" of coming up with the "aim," then the system will not pocket most balls without added information (like player "feel" for the correct aiming line)--and could hardly be called exact. CTE users have unanimously and continuously at least AVOIDED the topic of the pocket in the calculation (allowing a strong inference that it isn't included in the process), or have explicitly stated that the pocket position doesn't need to be noted (or needs to be noted only for an initial approximation).

If a user thinks otherwise, then that user is deluded about the source of their aiming.

1-2-3.

NOTE: I wonder. By calling me "an idiot," I wonder if you will be given a "one more time" warning by the moderators. Probably not. Consistency doesn't seem to be highly regarded here. In any case: I don't report posts.
 
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The contact area between two spheres is always the same size. In the abstract, it's a single "point." If they're on the same plane, it's a "point" at the "equator."

Guys:

Not to be too technical (or engage in schoolboy pedantic minutiae), but I don't think a "graze hit" between two spheres (i.e. a cut shot) is a single point, when you consider:

  • ball skid (the cue/object balls' tendency to "cling" together on certain cut angles)
  • cloth (nap cloth tends to offer more resistance to an object ball accelerating from a quiescent state to a moving state)
  • plastic balls we use today, vs clay or ivory balls of yesteryear (plastic balls tend to compress and flatten very slightly at the point of contact, then spring back out when the balls leave each other)
There are probably a host of other aspects as well, but I think you get the idea. I would think the contact area on a cut shot (i.e. a "graze" hit) would tend to be "smeared" rather than a single point.

Perhaps Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, or Mike Page might offer some more details of these phenomena (or correct me where I'm wrong)?

-Sean
 
  • ball skid (the cue/object balls' tendency to "cling" together on certain cut angles)--which would tend to rotate the OB through friction, but not widen the area of contact by "sliding." Skid is caused by ADDITIONAL friction.

  • cloth (nap cloth tends to offer more resistance to an object ball accelerating from a quiescent state to a moving state)--the greater the "inertia" of the OB, the greater the impetus for the CB to deflect away from it.

  • plastic balls we use today, vs clay or ivory balls of yesteryear (plastic balls tend to compress and flatten very slightly at the point of contact, then spring back out when the balls leave each other)--I did say that the contact is at a point "in the abstract." In fact, if anything, a hard, straight-on hit would produce MORE contact area than a thin cut (by deformation of the plastic), because of the much larger force involved in a straight-on hit.
 
Dr. Dave's instructions are his personal interpretations of how CTE works.
Actually, the lists of instructions for the two versions I have posted are not "my interpretions" at all ... they are direct quotes from CTE proponents. Everything else on the CTE resource page is my attempt to explain and illustrate some of the information that I perceive is missing. So the remaining stuff is my interpretation.

It is his website, and therefore it is his right to post whatever he wants to post on it. No one else has to approve it first.
I agree 100%. Thank you for the support.

Besides, I don't know how anybody can say Dr. Dave's instructions are "bad" without telling us what good instructions would be. To date, no one has actually proven anything about CTE either way. (Yeah, I know; that's only because I'm too stupid to get it.)
Again, I am happy to post a better version if one exists. However, I think my "interpretations" would still apply, based on everything I have heard and seen so far. But maybe your article and Stan's DVD will shed new light on everything.

Regards,
Dave
 
Guys:

Not to be too technical (or engage in schoolboy pedantic minutiae), but I don't think a "graze hit" between two spheres (i.e. a cut shot) is a single point, when you consider:

  • ball skid (the cue/object balls' tendency to "cling" together on certain cut angles)
  • cloth (nap cloth tends to offer more resistance to an object ball accelerating from a quiescent state to a moving state)
  • plastic balls we use today, vs clay or ivory balls of yesteryear (plastic balls tend to compress and flatten very slightly at the point of contact, then spring back out when the balls leave each other)
There are probably a host of other aspects as well, but I think you get the idea. I would think the contact area on a cut shot (i.e. a "graze" hit) would tend to be "smeared" rather than a single point.

Perhaps Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, or Mike Page might offer some more details of these phenomena (or correct me where I'm wrong)?

-Sean

I'm confident I know the least about it of this small crowd, so I'll start. Everybody knows a ball like a tennis ball deforms when it bounces off something hard. So do pool balls. They're just harder to deform. Most things that deform elastically follow something close to Hooke's Law--push twice as hard and the thing crunches in twice as far. Spheres are different because the more scrunched together they are the bigger the area of contact that needs to be scrunched further. So they follow something called Hertz's law instead of Hooke's law.

An interesting consequence of Hertz's law is the prediction the contact time gets SHORTER for a harder hit rather than staying the same as it would if they followed Hooke's law.

So the contact area is smeared whether it's a full hit or a grazing hit.

I would imagine the contact area is a circle for a full hit and is an oval for a grazing hit, and I can imagine time is a little longer for a grazing hit.

I don't think the cloth plays a role, and I don't imagine the surfaces ever cling together even briefly except as sean mentioned on those rare "THAT FREAKIN BALL SKID ON ME!!!" shots
 
dr_dave said:
I list the sources on my CTE resource page.

The first version was presented in a video demonstration posted (and later removed) by eezbank. He claimed in the video that this was the version of CTE taught to him directly by Hal Houle. The second version is a direct quote from Spidey's blog, which is considered by many to be the best current resource on CTE. Spidey also claims this version of CTE was taught to him directly by Hal Houle.
I want to go on the record and state that on the video I posted on youtube I clearly stated that it was an attempt by me to show how the system works. I took the instructions given to me by Hal and tried to explain them as I understood them. After I post the video it was linked onto Dr_Dave's site. At the time I thought it was accurate. There were many things that I left out. Also, I presented it in a way that I felt it would be easily translated to the masses. The way Hal teaches the system you pivot on every shot. So, the halfball info is wrong. Also, where I use the one tip reference Hal says it doesn't matter how many tips you use. You can start all the way to one side of the CB if that's what works with your pivot length. I was wrong there also.
Thank you for providing the clarifications and improved information. FYI, I've added the following to the resource page:
Here's a more-recent clarification from eezbank:

The way Hal teaches the system you pivot on every shot. So, the halfball info is wrong. Also, where I use the one tip reference Hal says it doesn't matter how many tips you use. You can start all the way to one side of the CB if that's what works with your pivot length.​

I appreciate your efforts to help improve the information that is out there.

Regards,
Dave
 
I've thought about this some more.

Some points are so obviously true they don't NEED more thought, such as:

1) CTE is NOT an aiming system
2) CTE does NOT give the "exact" point to aim.
3) People who believe CTE TELLS them where to aim are indeed deluded.

It's laughable to see proponents continue to WHOLLY FAIL to even give a HINT of how CTE works, or COULD work, without directly referencing the pocket as the final part of it's method or calculation. CTE proponents definitely have a cognitive failing (which they, of course, can't perceive within themselves).

I could see that nicely with Spidey's "block the pocket" video. Funny to see fully half the table blocked off, yet when seeing him set up the shots seeing HOW EASY it would be to make them--and that, after you've gained enough experience at playing, you can feel from the immediate contexts (distance from the rail and side pockets) how the OB has to be hit to put it in the corner--without actually needing to look directly at the pocket anymore. I haven't played in THIRTY FIVE YEARS and I think I could probably make the 10/15 shots that Spidey makes! (No, not making any videos :D )

But that has helped me understand better HOW CTE PROBABLY DOES WORK FOR SOME PEOPLE!

CTE users learn by "feel" just like the rest of us. Then they ASSOCIATE that feel with a certain degree of pivot, yada, yada, yada. By doing that they create a sort of cognitive ROADMAP for themselves of how to make the shot. Dr. Dave and others have said that what helps them is a consistent PSR, etc. I don't think it is. It's their internal "roadmap" for remembering/"aiming" the shots.

Any feel player will know what I mean: some days you can just be "off." (and you can notice that especially if you don't feel so great, have a cold, etc.). You just can't "see the shots" as well as you did a few days ago. Sometimes you just "come up dry" on exactly how to make the shot. But CTE users don't continue to feel and re-feel each shot. Once they "learn it," they associate it with a DEFINED RECIPE of how much to pivot (or whatever).

The better defined, discerned, delineated a mental process is, the better one can recall/implement it--because it involves more areas of the brain; there are more internal pathways by which your brain remembers the same thing.

CTE is like a little dance for each shot. They learn the shot, then they associate a dance with what they've learned, and then whenever they need to repeat the shot they repeat the dance--and the shot gets made. Believe it or not, I could actually find a way to defend that sort of process, from a cognitive perspective.

It's still not something I would recommend: all that "pivot stuff" is contrary to the concept/habit of stroking straight. And it's NOT GOOD to believe untrue things in order to accomplish a task--progress requires being RIGHT, not wrong.

But I could imagine something similar to CTE. Some "dance" that moved your aiming line in tiny increments from a more easily defined aimpoint--like 1/4, 1/2, 3/4--which, if remembered and acted upon properly, could help you settle in on a shot you had already learned by "feel" (a process which, with 5-10 repetitions takes all of 5 minutes to learn in the first place).

Instead of CTE players "subconsciously" adjusting for feel, they are in fact VERY CONSCIOUSLY adjusting for already learned feel--by performing their recipe/dance they have associated with the shot. I can actually find plausible a scenario (a clear and honest one, not a delusional one like CTE) where a similar practice could be used to one's benefit.

GMT,

Good post. You've brought up some good points. Take out the descriptive words like "delusional" from your posts and the discussion will move forward. ;)


You are correct about some of these things, but not all. Possibly you finally get "it" that this system is about something other than trig functions and guessing angles. It is creative and visually driven. It relies heavily on the perspective of the player. New users either take to it or give up right away because it's intuitive. It's not easy to explain it without a personal demonstration.

Your description and logical explanation about adjustments is plausible and I agree. Memory and the "dance" are factors, but the setup and the visual intelligence beforehand on the pre-shot routine limit these factors.

Stan's dvd will show how these small adjustments are made visually (Spidey's shot circle) and how it relates to what SUPERSTAR and Eezbank couldn't get together on previously. It's a visually engaging system, but it can be easily learned.

Thanks for adding some insightful and logical discussion points. :thumbup:

Best,
Mike
 
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cookie man said:
I thought you were writing an article describing how to do it?
Wrong; I'm writing an article describing what it is.
When is your final article due out? The suspense is killing me.

I'm not sure which I'm looking forward to more, your article or Stan's DVD; although, I am genuinely interested to see both.

Regards,
Dave
 
1-2-3.

NOTE: I wonder. By calling me "an idiot," I wonder if you will be given a "one more time" warning by the moderators. Probably not. Consistency doesn't seem to be highly regarded here. In any case: I don't report posts.

Be careful of what you wish for. You said the same thing in different words. If he gets a warning, you get banned. ;) And, he didn't say that you are an idiot, he said that you are a pool idiot. Not really any different than you saying that all CTE users have a cognitive failing and are deluded.
 
Wow, 92 pages and going strong.

CTE causes more arguments than evolution/creation.

I am very open-minded, but I just don't understand the CTE how-to descriptions.
 
GMT,

It's a visually demanding system and you must work at it to get it.

:Best,
Mike


Fair enough!

Yes, it's visual and a little bit demanding but not to the point that one can't get the VISUALS down within a few days up to a few weeks.

Many very good players spend a lifetime playing the game and never see the balls correctly.

In just a short time one can learn the proper perceptions for ball pocketing.
So, if it is a little demanding with some work involved.....then I would think the trade-off to see in an exact way beats the heck out of the 10,000 hour or million ball approach.

Stan Shuffett
 
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sfleinen said:
Not to be too technical (or engage in schoolboy pedantic minutiae), but I don't think a "graze hit" between two spheres (i.e. a cut shot) is a single point, when you consider:

* ball skid (the cue/object balls' tendency to "cling" together on certain cut angles)
* cloth (nap cloth tends to offer more resistance to an object ball accelerating from a quiescent state to a moving state)
* plastic balls we use today, vs clay or ivory balls of yesteryear (plastic balls tend to compress and flatten very slightly at the point of contact, then spring back out when the balls leave each other)

There are probably a host of other aspects as well, but I think you get the idea. I would think the contact area on a cut shot (i.e. a "graze" hit) would tend to be "smeared" rather than a single point.

Perhaps Bob Jewett, Dr. Dave, or Mike Page might offer some more details of these phenomena (or correct me where I'm wrong)?
I'm confident I know the least about it of this small crowd, so I'll start. Everybody knows a ball like a tennis ball deforms when it bounces off something hard. So do pool balls. They're just harder to deform. Most things that deform elastically follow something close to Hooke's Law--push twice as hard and the thing crunches in twice as far. Spheres are different because the more scrunched together they are the bigger the area of contact that needs to be scrunched further. So they follow something called Hertz's law instead of Hooke's law.

An interesting consequence of Hertz's law is the prediction the contact time gets SHORTER for a harder hit rather than staying the same as it would if they followed Hooke's law.

So the contact area is smeared whether it's a full hit or a grazing hit.

I would imagine the contact area is a circle for a full hit and is an oval for a grazing hit, and I can imagine time is a little longer for a grazing hit.

I don't think the cloth plays a role, and I don't imagine the surfaces ever cling together even briefly except as sean mentioned on those rare "THAT FREAKIN BALL SKID ON ME!!!" shots
Everything sounds good to me.

One thing I'm not sure about is: "I can imagine time is a little longer for a grazing hit." I can also imagine this, but I would need to see experimental results to be sure.

Another thing I would expect with a grazing hit is a less collision efficiency (i.e., a lower COR). This, along with friction changes due to speed changes, can affect throw, per TP A.5 and TP A.14.

As GMT pointed out, "cling" is a condition of increased friction (e.g., because a chalk smudge or rough spot at the contact point). The balls aren't "clinging" together over a longer time. Instead, the amount of friction during contact is much greater than normal, creating excess throw. Although, when it happens, it does seem like the balls are sticking together ... but they are not. BTW, more info on the topic, including a high-speed-video demo can be found here:

Regards,
Dave
 
GMT,

Good post. You've brought up some good points. Take out the descriptive words like "delusional" from your posts and the discussion will move forward. ;)


You are correct about some of these things, but not all. Possibl you finally get "it" that this system is about something other than trig functions and guessing angles. It is creative and visually driven. It relies heavily on the perspective of the player. New users either take to it or give up right away because it's intuitive. It's not easy to explain it without a personal demonstration.

Your description and logical explanation about adjustments is plausible and I agree. Memory and the "dance" are factors, but the setup and the visual intelligence beforehand on the pre-shot routine limit these factors.

Stan's dvd will show how these small adjustments are made visually (Spidey's shot circle) and how it relates to what SUPERSTAR and Eezbank couldn't get together on previously. It's a visually demanding system and you must work at it to get it.

Thanks for adding some insightful and logical discussion points. :thumbup:

Best,
Mike

Thanks for the encouragement...but I'm not willing to "bite" and meet you in the middle. First I'll say:

MAYBE THE ENTIRE DISCUSSION IS A MATTER OF SEMANTICS!

I don't think anyone has the "rights" to the precise definition of what an aiming system IS in pool.

As I would choose to define it, it's something that shows you precisely where the CB and OB should "meet" to exactly make the shot (and descriptions of that can/will vary with the parts of the balls described). And the precision must be geometrically based, since we KNOW that the actual point can vary by throw, etc. From that perspective I KNOW that CTE cannot be an "aiming system"--if, as I've concluded, it doesn't take fundamental account of the pocket, or the exact direction the OB must travel. I've not heard ANYTHING from ANYONE that is contrary to that. So my conclusion stands for now.

But OTHERS may define it as an "aiming memory" system, or some sort of "sighting system." With those people I suppose I have no argument (partly because I don't know precisely enough what they're doing to consider how it might be of value).

My PRIMARY position on CTE is that it cannot SYSTEMATICALLY produce an "aiming solution" for a shot, because it does not systematically and exactly INCORPORATE the position of the pocket in its systematic process. I stand by that--unless I've been purposely mislead by the many proponents of CTE who have posted, who have done nothing to contradict the idea that the position of the pocket is not a fundamental part of the aiming process.

Spidey is the most passionate supporter, and he tries to get great traction with the idea that the pockets can be visually BLOCKED and balls still made. How can that mean anything other than that the pockets are not included in the aiming calculation process? If they're not, then CTE does not qualify as an aiming system under MY terminology.

I'd be interested to hear what the terminology of OTHERS is in defining CTE as an "aiming system."


OR ANOTHER APPROACH IS:

I'd be interested hearing from anyone who would like to claim that it is even POSSIBLE to come up with ANY geometric aiming system (CTE doesn't even need to be mentioned) that does not depend on pocket location.

I would say that it's NOT possible. It IS possible to "prove a negative" in a finite system--like pool and pool geometry and aiming. I can't claim an exhaustive proof, but I'm sure willing to stand up and say I've been a TOTAL FOOL if someone can demonstrate a POSSIBLE aiming system that involves only CB and OB.

So far, I've heard the implication about the visual size of the OB varying with distance. That's suggestive, perhaps. But I don't see how it can make it...unless there happens to be something EXTREMELY interesting about the relative sizes of the balls and the table, etc. I'm pretty sure it would involve more "numerology" than even Hal might come up with.


BUT, FINALLY:

I will concede that it's a least POSSIBLE that something like CTE COULD BE a benefit (but not "is" a benefit, since I DON'T have the data to determine that). I could imagine it to be beneficial, as I stated in my earlier post, if it enhanced the normal "feel" method, by ADDING to it a further "process" by which to mentally re-establish a feel "memory" each time a similar shot is made. It IS true that, geometrically (and ignoring throw considerations), there are probably only 70-80 or so different "shots" in pool that are reasonable (leaving out some very fine cut shots over long distances--that most pros would choose to play safe on). If one learned all those "by feel," and then had a method to help him reliably RETRIEVE the mental "feel" necessary to make the shot again, then any help would be useful. Most good players probably remember them all by feel (or re-generate them for each shot, by reliably imagining a ghost ball). But if there's a way to ENHANCE that memory, I'm all for it. But I would label as an "aiming system" only a method that could geometrically GENERATE the precision necessary for those shots.
 
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Unfortunately, I don't think there is any progress to be made in this thread. All logical points made are simply dismissed as nonsense, and people are obviously not on the same page. I think I will follow my own original advice and wait until Stan's DVD comes out, and a concise explanation can be seen, which I am sure will spark a lot more debate by the detractors.
 
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