Why CTE is silly

[JB Cases]

Here, let me use your defense: "...we messed around and no one took it seriously. At least I didn't." But when it suits you, John, you sure care, *a lot* lol.

Just for the record: the reason you won, and as you have acknowledged in the past, is that you splashed the rack a couple of times and completely got away with it in cold blood. Yes, you weren't using CTE, you were using Shee-T-EEE ;-)

Lou Figueroa

Yeah, but I got there, so as long as we are all using meaningless matches to determine whether or not these systems have any merit or not I am 2:2 against the four CTE skeptics I have played. I have beaten you and Deno and lost to Pat Johnson and Mike Page. Fred Agnir who knows more about Hal's systems than most beat me.

Anyway, you will get your chance to erase this blight on your record. I have already promised to bet you enough to make it worth while playing one hole even next time we see each other.

Now that I actually know how to play one hole a little bit I'd like to see how I do against you if we play for real.

Until then you're just the guy on the skeptic's team who lost to the clown in the tin foil hat.

The force was with me.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you seem to be making. Are you saying that it should only be used by pros? That pros are the only ones capable of deploying it? That if an amateur uses it they will shoot at pro level? Something else? Could you please clarify what "a professional aiming system" means?

Lou Figueroa

I wouldn't sweat it, Lou. Regardless of the answer, it wouldn't apply to you.

 

[lfigueroa]

Yeah, but I got there, so as long as we are all using meaningless matches to determine whether or not these systems have any merit or not I am 2:2 against the four CTE skeptics I have played. I have beaten you and Deno and lost to Pat Johnson and Mike Page. Fred Agnir who knows more about Hal's systems than most beat me.

Anyway, you will get your chance to erase this blight on your record. I have already promised to bet you enough to make it worth while playing one hole even next time we see each other.

Now that I actually know how to play one hole a little bit I'd like to see how I do against you if we play for real.

Until then you're just the guy on the skeptic's team who lost to the clown in the tin foil hat.

The force was with me.

What was that, John? Seven, eight years ago -- a friendly get-together -- and you still remember and post about everyone you played and beat, lol?!

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I wouldn't sweat it, Lou. Regardless of the answer, it wouldn't apply to you.

Not sweating it -- I don't have the emotional investment in all this that you do.

Lou Figueroa

 

[stan shuffett]

OK, so you've figured it out. But, do you accept the possibility that there could be a flaw in your approach or calculations? Or do have 100% confidence in them? I ask because as GMT pointed out in his first post, pocketing pool balls requires a very high level of precision. Do your systems achieve that level?

Lou Figueroa

CTE/PRO ONE is the most accurate aiming system that I have ever been exposed to. The system is center pocket with a margin of error for OB the ball on each side of center as it enters a pocket.

CTE is high precision........I will stand by that, always.

Good commments, Lou.

Stan

 

[stan shuffett]

I'm not sure I understand the distinction you seem to be making. Are you saying that it should only be used by pros? That pros are the only ones capable of deploying it? That if an amateur uses it they will shoot at pro level? Something else? Could you please clarify what "a professional aiming system" means?

Lou Figueroa

Lou, Pros are using this system. In 2 recents events at the pro level, PRO ONE users did extremely well. !st and 6th. Why did those pros go to CTE, because the system offered them more accuracy compared to what they were doing. Plus, the system is natural....Pro-like to begin with.

As for C and B players taking up with CTE. Absolutely. Why not start seeing the proper perception asap. And why not start moving into the shots in a pro-like manner asap.

Does this make one a pro in short order....nope, but it gets 'em on the path in a correct way. It's up to player at that point as to how long their journey is.

Spot light on Hal Houle one more time........

Stan

I am out of town for a few days....everyone take care and have a great day.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

No disrespect at all Stan, but is there a particular reason that you aren't dropping the names of those pros who finished 1st and 6th?

Considering that disclosure is at the heart of part of the anti CTE argument, i would think that you want to avoid this type of thing.

 

[JB Cases]

What was that, John? Seven, eight years ago -- a friendly get-together -- and you still remember and post about everyone you played and beat, lol?!

Lou Figueroa

Well, the thing that makes is so memorable is that in the months prior to that get together I had just learned Hal's system and had talked about it on RSB and you and Deno ragged on me incessantly over it. Pat probably got in some licks too but it was you and Deno who really went over the top.

So it was particularly sweet to beat both of you at that event. One of the joyous moments as a Houligan for sure.

I know it bugs you. Sorry. I have taken a beating that bugs me too and unlike you I will never get another chance to redeem myself on that loss. The other side nitted up and refuses to play. Oh well, I had my shot, got out the gate real strong and faded mid-course - no one to blame but me and a really bad blizzard in Denver.

But back to you. Yes that little victory, as meaningless as it is in real life, has great symbolic value for me. As Eddie said and I paraphrase, 'you shoulda wiped the floor with that guy'. I shouldn't have been able to beat you in a million years at a game I barely knew how to play which was your forte' and using Hal's aiming system on top of it.....

So anytime you want to jump in these threads and continue to rag on me and other Hal Houle students this is your cross to bear until such time as you erase it. You MIGHT not want to play me again though because think how insufferable I will become if I beat you for real and for money.

 

[sfleinen]

CTE/PRO ONE is the most accurate aiming system that I have ever been exposed to. The system is center pocket with a margin of error for OB the ball on each side of center as it enters a pocket.

CTE is high precision........I will stand by that, always.

Good commments, Lou.

Stan

Folks:

Apologies for my "hit and run" posts in this thread, but trying to keep up the best I can, with the 5 or so minutes I have on breaks.

What does Stan mean by the bolded part above? Re: "The system is center pocket with a margin of error for OB the ball on each side of center as it enters a pocket"? Is he saying there's a margin of error +/- a whole ball on each side of center as the object ball enters the pocket?

If so, then it's not a "center pocket" system. I keep seeing "center pocket" being thrown around in this thread to obviously tout the system, but a margin of error that wide clearly disqualifies the "center pocket" virtue from being applied.

In basketball, if my free-throws have a 50/50 chance of hitting the rim on the way into the basket (especially if they hit the rim so hard that the rim flutters, and the ball flops around in the basket before it finally fell through), I wouldn't label my free-throw technique as a "swish technique."

Thoughts?
-Sean

 

[Patrick Johnson]

John:
I guarantee you Pat that if we ever had a real session then you'd see some CTE magic.

John, I've seen your shotmaking and it's impressive when you bring it - but from what I can tell you had it before you ever heard of CTE. I assume you're still a very good shotmaker (our little late-night fooling around session didn't change my mind), but I haven't seen any evidence that it's because of CTE - that's what my impertinent post was trying to say.

You implied in your earlier post that players who don't use CTE can't be great players. Stan says in his latest posts that CTE is the "proper" way to see shots. I'm saying that there's no evidence for either of these hyperbolic claims, and in fact I think they're both overblown bullshit.

All we've seen so far is a lot of "defenders" who are incapable of describing CTE (or much of anything else) and apparently incapable of the simplest logic, but think we should take their word for CTE's universal greatness. Sorry, but these testimonials from the fringe are having the opposite effect on me - CTE seems like a worse idea with every post about it.

Oh yeah, let's not forget the fabled DVD that's supposed to instantly take CTE from being a fringe curiosity to the pinnacle of aiming achievement in modern pool. Please. If that was even a remote possibility we'd be hearing about it from all over the pool world, not just from Stan and his merry band of clueless AzB cheerleaders.

pj
chgo

 

[lfigueroa]

Well, the thing that makes is so memorable is that in the months prior to that get together I had just learned Hal's system and had talked about it on RSB and you and Deno ragged on me incessantly over it. Pat probably got in some licks too but it was you and Deno who really went over the top.

So it was particularly sweet to beat both of you at that event. One of the joyous moments as a Houligan for sure.

I know it bugs you. Sorry. I have taken a beating that bugs me too and unlike you I will never get another chance to redeem myself on that loss. The other side nitted up and refuses to play. Oh well, I had my shot, got out the gate real strong and faded mid-course - no one to blame but me and a really bad blizzard in Denver.

But back to you. Yes that little victory, as meaningless as it is in real life, has great symbolic value for me. As Eddie said and I paraphrase, 'you shoulda wiped the floor with that guy'. I shouldn't have been able to beat you in a million years at a game I barely knew how to play which was your forte' and using Hal's aiming system on top of it.....

So anytime you want to jump in these threads and continue to rag on me and other Hal Houle students this is your cross to bear until such time as you erase it. You MIGHT not want to play me again though because think how insufferable I will become if I beat you for real and for money.

John: this is not a cross for me to bear. Because each time you bring it up it just shows everyone what a weenie you are

Lou Figueroa

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Folks:

Apologies for my "hit and run" posts in this thread, but trying to keep up the best I can, with the 5 or so minutes I have on breaks.

What does Stan mean by the bolded part above? Re: "The system is center pocket with a margin of error for OB the ball on each side of center as it enters a pocket"? Is he saying there's a margin of error +/- a whole ball on each side of center as the object ball enters the pocket?

If so, then it's not a "center pocket" system. I keep seeing "center pocket" being thrown around in this thread to obviously tout the system, but a margin of error that wide clearly disqualifies the "center pocket" virtue from being applied.

In basketball, if my free-throws have a 50/50 chance of hitting the rim on the way into the basket (especially if they hit the rim so hard that the rim flutters, and the ball flops around in the basket before it finally fell through), I wouldn't label my free-throw technique as a "swish technique."

Thoughts?
-Sean

This is clear backpeddling from the earlier "center pocket" claims, and it was, of course, inevitable. Stan is apparently going to make the old "margin of error" argument on his DVD (I assume that's at the center of Spidey's "math" too) - that CTE is an "exact" system if you allow for "pocket slop". The problem is it doesn't work "exactly" even then.

Maybe these guys missed the fact that this is the original argument made years ago for the crazy claims that Hal's "3-angle" system could make any shot "without adjustment" - the argument was nonsense then and won't be any better just because there are fewer people around to remember how thoroughly it has already been trashed. If this is what they're going to claim, their "proof" has a rocky road ahead of it.

pj
chgo

 

[eezbank]

John, I've seen your shotmaking and it's impressive when you bring it - but from what I can tell you had it before you ever heard of CTE. I assume you're still a very good shotmaker (our little late-night fooling around session didn't change my mind), but I haven't seen any evidence that it's because of CTE - that's what my impertinent post was trying to say.

You implied in your earlier post that players who don't use CTE can't be great players. Stan says in his latest posts that CTE is the "proper" way to see shots. I'm saying that there's no evidence for either of these hyperbolic claims, and in fact I think they're both overblown bullshit.

All we've seen so far is a lot of "defenders" who are incapable of describing CTE (or much of anything else) and apparently incapable of the simplest logic, but think we should take their word for CTE's universal greatness. Sorry, but these testimonials from the fringe are having the opposite effect on me - CTE seems like a worse idea with every post about it.

Oh yeah, let's not forget the fabled DVD that's supposed to instantly take CTE from being a fringe curiosity to the pinnacle of aiming achievement in modern pool. Please. If that was even a remote possibility we'd be hearing about it from all over the pool world, not just from Stan and his merry band of clueless AzB cheerleaders.

pj
chgo

That last paragraph in red should be the first line in your fair and unbias review of the DVD

 

[Neil]

John, I've seen your shotmaking and it's impressive when you bring it - but from what I can tell you had it before you ever heard of CTE. I assume you're still a very good shotmaker (our little late-night fooling around session didn't change my mind), but I haven't seen any evidence that it's because of CTE - that's what my impertinent post was trying to say.

You implied in your earlier post that players who don't use CTE can't be great players. Stan says in his latest posts that CTE is the "proper" way to see shots. I'm saying that there's no evidence for either of these hyperbolic claims, and in fact I think they're both overblown bullshit.

All we've seen so far is a lot of "defenders" who are incapable of describing CTE (or much of anything else) and apparently incapable of the simplest logic, but think we should take their word for CTE's universal greatness. Sorry, but these testimonials from the fringe are having the opposite effect on me - CTE seems like a worse idea with every post about it.

Oh yeah, let's not forget the fabled DVD that's supposed to instantly take CTE from being a fringe curiosity to the pinnacle of aiming achievement in modern pool. Please. If that was even a remote possibility we'd be hearing about it from all over the pool world, not just from Stan and his merry band of clueless AzB cheerleaders.

pj
chgo

Well, let's see- on the one side we have Stan, Randy, Scott, Steve, David, Tom. (just to name a few) All well known instructors and for at least half of these, it is their main source of income. If what they are teaching truly is B.S., they would soon be out of business.

On the other hand, we have you and GMT. Two who admit they don't really know anything about it.

Folks, you decide who you want to listen to. For me, it surely won't be the latter two! It's very, very clear on just who is clueless around here.

 

[dr_dave]

I did send Dr. Dave some information about a related pivot system, 90/90, but he didn't seem very interested.

I might not be "excited" or "impressed" by align-and-pivot aiming systems like CTE and 90/90, but I am most certainly "interested." I have put in countless hours into reading thousands of forum posts, reading PMs and e-mails from enthusiastic proponents, talking on the phone with enthusiastic proponents, and trying out at the table everything that has been suggested to me (in addition to thinking about it a lot). I also wrote several articles for BD (see October-December '08 here) that illustrate and discuss some of the "challenges" and "issues" related to aiming systems like these. I have also spent countless hours creating and continually revising my aiming resource page. So I don't think it is fair to say I'm not interested.

Regards,
Dave

 

[GetMeThere]

On the other side of the coin we have the Cue-Tech School of Pool in Dallas with major industry heavyweight and national champion Randy Goetlicher. We have renowned traveling instructor and trick shot artist Scott Lee. We have well respected instructor Stan Shuffet who is betting his son's career on Pro1/CTE, his son who has multiple national championship trophies by the way. We have BCA Master instructor Tom Simpson. All of whom are people who's pool pedigrees are purebred and long.

On your side we have who?

Uh...EVERYBODY ELSE??

Geez, if I were a baseball player and was set up like that I'd be the home run king of ALL TIME!

 

[GetMeThere]

So ... CTE might just make you think you are playing well?

Hey GetMeThere. I don't want to hijack your thread, but what is your opinion on backhand english?

I've never used it. It never seemed to necessary to me to do that. I had never HEARD OF IT until recently. And I've never used an LD shaft, either.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

.on the one side we have Stan, Randy, Scott, Steve, David, Tom. (just to name a few) All well known instructors and for at least half of these, it is their main source of income.

So "on the one side" we have these six names you've dropped ("just to name a few" - lol) who you say sell CTE as "their main source of income" - but don't have anything to say about it (except Stan, of course, who's selling a DVD and says "it's great").

On the other hand, we have you and GMT.

Well, if we're going to include all these instructors who haven't said anything about CTE on "your side", then I'll have to invoke all the others who haven't said anything about it on "my side": i.e., the rest of the pool shooting world.

Folks, you decide who you want to listen to.

I don't think you need to remind people to do that, Neil.

pj
chgo

 

[GetMeThere]

Well, let's see- on the one side we have Stan, Randy, Scott, Steve, David, Tom. (just to name a few) All well known instructors and for at least half of these, it is their main source of income. If what they are teaching truly is B.S., they would soon be out of business.

On the other hand, we have you and GMT. Two who admit they don't really know anything about it.

Folks, you decide who you want to listen to. For me, it surely won't be the latter two! It's very, very clear on just who is clueless around here.

Hey! What happened to the bowing out? I was kind of enjoying it!

I like this one, though: "If what they are teaching truly is B.S., they would soon be out of business."

When I read it I think of how astrology is PERVASIVE, and followed by millions; and I think of how much money is made on homeopathy products, too.

THEN, I think again about "Stan, Randy, Scott, Steve, David, Tom. (just to name a few)" and I think: Yeah, there is timeless evidence that BS sells BETTER than the real thing--always has, and apparently always will.

It's a very very strange world.

 

[GetMeThere]

Here's a handy little post from the "Scott Lee in Dallas teaching CTE" thread:

Randy has gone above and beyond the call of duty to simplify the SAME Aim system to where it can be learned by anybody in very short amount of time. It is mindbogglingly simple - AND IT WORKS - EVERY TIME.

Looks like it's GREAT, and the DVD wouldn't even be necessary! And it looks like those here who describe "subtleties," and who say it takes a while to "get" and to fully comprehend are just WRONG!

Funny thing is....I'm wondering: Have people like Blackjack signed a NON-DISCLOSURE agreement? I doubt it VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY much.

Apparently these things that can be learned for $100 bucks, in a VERY SHORT TIME, somehow imbue in the buyers with the determination to keep this very easy and simple technique a PERFECT SECRET for the rest of their lives! And never post it, say, on a forum!**

Yes. It's a very very strange world--where BS just seems to....WORK BETTER than the real thing. Isn't that fascinating? I know it has always fascinated the crap out of me!


**Or never just tell their "close friends" who tell their "close friends," etc., until one of THEM posts it on a forum.