Why CTE is silly

[Patrick Johnson]

John:
You and others speak of CTE derisively rather than scholarly.

LOL. Could that be because CTE is solely represented by the hopelessly clueless? There hasn't been a single post by any CTE advocate (ever) that showed the slightest comprehension of the most simple questions raised about it. After thousands of posts all we know for sure is that CTE users not only don't know the answers - they don't even understand the questions.

If CTE shouldn't be ridiculed, maybe it would help to get somebody behind it who isn't ridiculous.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

Standards..............

Isn't it odd how people have complained about my "attitude" in this thread--but it's everyone ELSE who is always calling ME names??

Joey, I didn't do anything but quote you (or honestly summarize your statements). If there's "pettiness" in what I posted--it comes directly from you.

You're right, I was the one being petty, calling you a petty little man.

If I can't refrain from expressing my contempt for your style of posting and have to resort to calling you names, then I can't very well hold the other posters to the standards that I appear to so want to hold them to.

I try to see the good and the value in each person and each thing I encounter in life and I have struggled to see what benefit the Main Forum derives from your posting. Maybe the Main Forum doesn't have to benefit from your posting........

Your style of posting and your interaction with others is why people complain about your attitude. This happens over and over with different posters so you must know that it can't always be everyone but you. Could it be so simple that the problem actually lies with you? I don't know if this happens in your own personal life or not but that should and will be of no further concern for me.

I'll leave you with the others who enjoy your company and style of posting.

Please say hello if you see me at a tournament in your part of the world. I think i will be able to remember this thread. lol Maybe, in person I will have a better opportunity to see you for who you truly are. Perhaps in person it will be different. This has been a very poor start for the both of us.

JoeyA

 

[JB Cases]

Are you trying to sell the RIDICULOUS notion that only a scientist could describe CTE?

Nope. Just that a scientist who claims to have learned it, and in more than one "flavor" ought to be able to.

You're off the hook because you haven't learned it.

Dr. Dave has more specific information on CTE than I can find ANYWHERE else. If it's inadequate it's because CTE is inadequate.

Or the people Dave is quoting are providing incomplete information because they either don't have the complete information or don't want to give it. Dave doesn't appear to know what's correct and what isn't and ignore all requests to remove what the authors feel is incorrect.

If you think there should be resource work on CTE out there, why don't you prod the CTE ADVOCATES to put it up?

A page of out of context copied paragraphs and drawings from random people is not a "resource" page unless the resources are verified.

Isn't it REALLY STRANGE...REALLY STRANGE that NO CTE advocate has put up a substantial website on CTE giving ALL details and COPIOUS examples, diagrams, videos**, etc.? Isn't it especially strange that, it seems, so many people claim to want to HONOR Hal Houle's contribution--yet they don't put anything up about Hal and his systems?

No. It's not strange at all. And in fact there is plenty out there about Hal and his systems. But one thing Hal asked those of us who have learned FROM him is not to try and put the systems online. His point which is valid is that it's easier to show them either in person or as Hal liked to do it by talking on the phone while the student was at the table.

Why don't you go and find me a website that has all the DETAILS and copious examples of the Ghost Ball method? Even Dave Alciatore's website does not have those details about the well known and easy-to-diagram GB method. As seen in my other thread about it there seems to be a lot of different ways to apply GB.

**And I won't even MENTION in the main text the TRULY BIZARRE sight of the numerous videos out there of people simply pocketing balls and saying "SEE??" Such videos are DEVOID of useful content about CTE.

You think that they are devoid of useful content. Those of us who are studying CTE find them very useful. But if your intent is not to learn CTE but instead just to knock it then those videos will be of no use to you. I have found them all incredibly useful and I thank everyone who took the time to post what they could.

It would be AWESOME if those who say that they learned CTE and have the resources to do professional quality video would create some. Especially any billiard scholars who happen to be engineers.

 

[JB Cases]

CTE Trancends Language - Young Chinese Girl gets CTE but Pat Johnson and Friends cannot.


Tonight I went to play for a while at one of my favorite pool halls. The house pros were gone to a tournament so I ended up playing some random guy and I beat him pretty easily. When he quit one of the rack girls wanted to play. I said ok and she went and got her cues, a Fury Break cue and another nicely inlaid one. We started to play and I was runnign out from everywhere, playing good. She played ok, good stroke, but was missing some long shots and some tricky shots. So we played about ten games and when she finally won one she was ecstatic. We played a few more and she missed another long shot and the way she tried to line up to the shot was EXACTLY what Dr. Dave Alciatore said he does when he uses Ghost Ball.

She put the cue tip down where she thought the Ghost Ball center would be and then pivoted it back over the cue ball and brought the cue back to the cue ball and shot and missed by a diamond.

So I thought, what the hell I will show her CTE as best I can with my limited Chinese.

I did and she immediately "got it" based on my showing her what to do by example and starts whacking balls in the heart of the pocket. Her eyes light up in wonder and she is excited to shoot using this new method. Wham, wham wham, that's the sound of balls hitting the back of the pocket cleanly.

So I deicided to show her some backhand English on top of it. That didn't go quite as well but she got it.

I was pleased though that I could teach someone CTE in person even though we didn't speak the same language.

I find it hilarious that CTE can be learned by a Chinese girl and yet supposedly smart and highly educated people can't figure it out based on what's already out there.

Wham, wham wham, the beautiful sound a ball makes when it hits the back of the pocket and the shot is so pure that the good feeling goes right up your arm into your brain releasing tons of dopamine and giving you that everything's right with the world vibe.

So this will be my last entry into this thread, really. Because another thing occured to me while playing tonight. Not one word written here arguing about semantics and the lack of some sort of spoon-feeding detailed instructions helps me to enjoy playing pool.

What helps me to enjoy playing pool is the time that CTE users have taken to send me private instruction which has helped me to "get it" to the point where I feel pretty confident in my game and enjoy playing.

So thank you CTE Users who have helped me, you know who you are!

And Xiao Xing, my straight stroking opponent tonight who just had her eyes opened to a new way to play thanks you also.

 

[sfleinen]

You're right, I was the one being petty, calling you a petty little man.

If I can't refrain from expressing my contempt for your style of posting and have to resort to calling you names, then I can't very well hold the other posters to the standards that I appear to so want to hold them to.

I try to see the good and the value in each person and each thing I encounter in life and I have struggled to see what benefit the Main Forum derives from your posting. Maybe the Main Forum doesn't have to benefit from your posting........

Your style of posting and your interaction with others is why people complain about your attitude. This happens over and over with different posters so you must know that it can't always be everyone but you. Could it be so simple that the problem actually lies with you? I don't know if this happens in your own personal life or not but that should and will be of no further concern for me.

I'll leave you with the others who enjoy your company and style of posting.

Please say hello if you see me at a tournament in your part of the world. I think i will be able to remember this thread. lol Maybe, in person I will have a better opportunity to see you for who you truly are. Perhaps in person it will be different. This has been a very poor start for the both of us.

JoeyA

Joey:

I don't have to tell you that I think you're a classy guy, and an absolute ASSET to not only these boards, but to the pool world in general. I think the world of what you represent. You know this.

Without getting into a point-by-point, I think the problems on these boards with this particular topic (pivot-aiming) are the following:

1. There are certain folks on this board (the CTE advocates mainly, but to a lesser degree also, the CTE critics) that don't know the difference between criticism of an idea, and criticism of them personally. Admittedly, the original poster / originator of this thread foisted a WITHERING attack on CTE. But inasmuch as I disagreed with his aggressive tactics, I do know the difference between an attack on an idea and an attack on a person. I don't know the OP. But I recognize the template of what he was doing, which was academic debate / request for clarity. Yes, he attempted to attract bees with vinegar rather than honey -- and those bees came a-stingin'.

2. Let's talk about those bees for a second (specifically the "major players"). We have one that continually displayed a lack of ability to distinguish the difference between an attack of an idea and an attack on him personally, calling people vicious names and ultimately getting banned for it. We have another whose only contribution to these discussions are "pile on" one-liner zings (I'd called him out on this previously). We have another whose a very well respected product maker, prodigious originator of creative ideas in his product line, extremely well-written and detail-oriented, but again, takes personally an attack on an idea, and quickly "goes down with his boat" by taking a thread death-spiraling into the ground. We have another who is an unofficially-established "AZB Fellow" with his situational "what if" game/shot scenarios that pique the readership's knowledge (I know that I personally look forward to his threads on this topic and other contributory stuff), but shows another side with taking personally an attack on an idea, and almost overstepped the same line that the first "bee" was banned for. There are others, of course, but the common denominator is that lack of "knowing the difference" between an attack on an idea, and on a person.

3. Again, I'll reiterate that the OP used the wrong technique to try to get the science behind CTE clarified. (I mean, look at the *title* of this thread!) Instead of coaxing the bees out, he kicked and knocked over the hive. And because he was a relative unknown (a new member of AZB), he was, in effect, dressed entirely in black -- a color that our CTE African Killer bees go after with ferocity.

Attacking an idea is done all the time in the academic community. It's the way ideas are tested to be sure they can stand up to scrutiny. It's the way those ideas that are flawed are weeded out, to pave the way for new ideas that are better. It's the way to weed-out "religion" from "feet on terra firma" science. But the sad thing is, those certain factions of our readership can't recognize it for what it is, and do not possess the "intestinal fortitude" to not let their emotions be their first (and only, in some cases) response.

On the flip-side of the coin, the academia possibly don't keep in mind AZB is read by folks from all walks of life. This is not an academic setting by any stretch of the imagination. So if one comes on here with bold attacks on *any* idea, especially one that's rife with controversy as pivot-aiming is, that one can expect some vitriol returned to his/her *person*, because that's the only way some of the readership know how to parry.

I wish things were different, but it is what it is.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful in its own little way,
-Sean

 

[Patrick Johnson]

John:
...the good feeling goes right up your arm into your brain releasing tons of dopamine

Why do you think they call it dopamine?

So this will be my last entry into this thread, really.

LOL, really.

pj
chgo

 

[JoeyA]

Joey:

I don't have to tell you that I think you're a classy guy, and an absolute ASSET to not only these boards, but to the pool world in general. I think the world of what you represent. You know this.

Without getting into a point-by-point, I think the problems on these boards with this particular topic (pivot-aiming) are the following:

1. There are certain folks on this board (the CTE advocates mainly, but to a lesser degree also, the CTE critics) that don't know the difference between criticism of an idea, and criticism of them personally. Admittedly, the original poster / originator of this thread foisted a WITHERING attack on CTE. But inasmuch as I disagreed with his aggressive tactics, I do know the difference between an attack on an idea and an attack on a person. I don't know the OP. But I recognize the template of what he was doing, which was academic debate / request for clarity. Yes, he attempted to attract bees with vinegar rather than honey -- and those bees came a-stingin'.

2. Let's talk about those bees for a second (specifically the "major players"). We have one that continually displayed a lack of ability to distinguish the difference between an attack of an idea and an attack on him personally, calling people vicious names and ultimately getting banned for it. We have another whose only contribution to these discussions are "pile on" one-liner zings (I'd called him out on this previously). We have another whose a very well respected product maker, prodigious originator of creative ideas in his product line, extremely well-written and detail-oriented, but again, takes personally an attack on an idea, and quickly "goes down with his boat" by taking a thread death-spiraling into the ground. We have another who is an unofficially-established "AZB Fellow" with his situational "what if" game/shot scenarios that pique the readership's knowledge (I know that I personally look forward to his threads on this topic and other contributory stuff), but shows another side with taking personally an attack on an idea, and almost overstepped the same line that the first "bee" was banned for. There are others, of course, but the common denominator is that lack of "knowing the difference" between an attack on an idea, and on a person.

3. Again, I'll reiterate that the OP used the wrong technique to try to get the science behind CTE clarified. (I mean, look at the *title* of this thread!) Instead of coaxing the bees out, he kicked and knocked over the hive. And because he was a relative unknown (a new member of AZB), he was, in effect, dressed entirely in black -- a color that our CTE African Killer bees go after with ferocity.

Attacking an idea is done all the time in the academic community. It's the way ideas are tested to be sure they can stand up to scrutiny. It's the way those ideas that are flawed are weeded out, to pave the way for new ideas that are better. It's the way to weed-out "religion" from "feet on terra firma" science. But the sad thing is, those certain factions of our readership can't recognize it for what it is, and do not possess the "intestinal fortitude" to not let their emotions be their first (and only, in some cases) response.

On the flip-side of the coin, the academia possibly don't keep in mind AZB is read by folks from all walks of life. This is not an academic setting by any stretch of the imagination. So if one comes on here with bold attacks on *any* idea, especially one that's rife with controversy as pivot-aiming is, that one can expect some vitriol returned to his/her *person*, because that's the only way some of the readership know how to parry.

I wish things were different, but it is what it is.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful in its own little way,
-Sean

Sure, sure Sean. Attack me with those veiled attacks. I can still see them for what they are. Attacks on me, CTE and all that is good in life.. Sure, sure sure....oh wait, you weren't talking about me, only?

Do you have the Men's Warehouse commercial where you are from? The guy with the gravelly voice says something to the effect, "And I know you're gonna like it". That's the way I feel about you. :smile:

Can't wait to meet you. Maybe Verona, NY for the Turning Stone one day.

Best Regards,
JoeyA

 

[Mikjary]

LOL. Could that be because CTE is solely represented by the hopelessly clueless? There hasn't been a single post by any CTE advocate (ever) that showed the slightest comprehension of the most simple questions raised about it. After thousands of posts all we know for sure is that CTE users not only don't know the answers - they don't even understand the questions.

If CTE shouldn't be ridiculed, maybe it would help to get somebody behind it who isn't ridiculous.

pj
chgo

A generalized post like this makes me feel like I've just been witness to a drive-by shooting. Definitely a hit n run typed out of frustration and prejudice. Well, I've witnessed other debates where the the status quo was challenged and the traditionalists scoffed at the emerging evidence as absolutely flawed and without reason.

I fought the battle years ago with the baseball swing. I argued in favor of the rotational swing versus the linear swing, but was dismissed by many as a heretic and told to peddle my crap elsewhere. I perservered and slowly the naysayers turned their focus to what was happening and accepted the method as an accurate, viable technique.

Some debaters to this day still teach the "step into the ball, "use your arms" in their instruction. These coaches are usually unknowing dads at the lower levels who were taught it as kids themselves and just not informed. The eye opener personally and up front for my detractors was when my son would hit balls over 400' only weighing in at 150 lbs. They would try to spin it that he was "stepping into the ball", etc. As a wise man once said, "Well, that ain't it!".

Another example of bucking the system was in the martial arts. For years the traditionalists only believed in using the rear leg for generating knock out and board breaking power. I was in the fringe camp that said the front lead leg could develop enough wattage to do nearly the same thing and could be employed faster. I was also told that it would never be possible without a headstart and would telegraph my intentions. It was just not possible.

Eventually sparring champions started popping up who were using this technique. The schools in our organization dominated the fighting circuit and put out nationally recognized fighters. To this day we rank amongst the top producers in all divisions of sparring. Despite all this the debaters pick apart our successes and liberal views as nonsense. We go to their tournaments, but they don't don fighting gear. They disqualify us for excessive contact and discredit our "dangerous techniques". lol They close their tourneys so we can't attend. If they would open their minds, poke their heads up and look around, they might see that the world changes everyday.

It's okay to change and add a little something to your same old, same old. That's the attraction with Cte. Just because nobody has emailed the step by step instructions to you doesn't mean it's not out there. I busted my rump and went to the mountain to see for myself. It's not magical or hallucinatory. It contains real physical landmarks that are used visually by the shooter. As I've said before, "everybody sees them, most dimiss them and few exploit them".

If I tell you to line up center to edge and ask you "what do you see?", most don't understand. They want an arrow to pop up and start blinking. Well, actually at this point it is. You are not exploiting it yet. I spent days pondering this point, but I wasn't a quitter. I knew that mass hallucinations weren't a factor, so I explored all the avenues open to me and got my answers.

Many users on this forum have struggled to get these answers and have come up with their own interpretations of pivot systems without validation. They are ridiculed and laughed at and told they are gullible. And that they are naiive, easy to fool and are not rational thinkers. I believe differently. I believe these forward thinking individuals are the backbone of the change in our sport/game that over time will increase our total knowledge of how it all fits together. These free thinkers should be commended for their willingness to improve their abilities despite the peer pressure. We take the old and mold it with the new and make it better. We improve on the solid foundations we started with and gain insight in new revelations.

Of course the inquisition will always be a factor. Rational minds will prevail and dismiss manned flight and horseless carriages. In 1920 how many people thought we would be on our Moon less than 50 years later? The negative peer pressure is simply only that...negative pressure.

They say it is on us to prove our standpoint, yet they are afraid to heed our response when we tell them the answer is out there. Get off your butt and then form your opinion. It's easier to sit behind the keyboard and reinforce your negativity by consoling your opinions with your peer group of "petty", fearful trollers.

Sadly, the worst part of this debate is the amount of brain power this group retains. These are some of the finest minds in pool. They are the teachers and logical thinkers who frequent an open forum that has admitted to protecting the step by step process of Cte and wonder why there is no evidence. What's wrong with this picture?

I, for one, have the step by step instructions. If I was or was not specifically asked to give it out publicly, I would not do so out of respect for the instructors and their familes relying on this income. I didn't post CJ Wileys aiming system on this forum or Jimmy Reid's diamond system either. Why is that? I own the dvd's and could secretly pass the info around. Think about it.

In the meantime get all the digs in you can as you sit on your sedentary a$$es behind the comfy keyboards. Don't bother to get up and scare the he!! out of your cozy business as usual lifestyles. It's easier to just say "Here's another post stating nothing. lol What a joke! Get out the tinfoil hats. lol". Too bad. That flickering light you see out of the corner of your eye is your credibility. I can honestly say whenever I post, anything you read I can say to your face exactly as I wrote it without reservation and stand behind it. Would you be able to do the same if I was standing in front of you, oh keyboard gladiators?

Best,
Mike

 

[GetMeThere]

I'll leave you with the others who enjoy your company and style of posting.

And of among almost ALL posters I most dislike YOUR style of posting: PURE smarmy personal recommendations, with ZERO factual content, and no attempt to present factual information, logical points, or explanations.

You've obviously been a "marketer/advertiser" of one sort or another all your life, and a sort of "BS/schmoozing/slap-on-the-back/sell-the-folks" style of non-information seems to be all you have to offer.

Thing is...that doesn't at all fit a DISCUSSION forum--where people might try to raise IDEAS and POINTS to discuss and work through.

NOTHING has been said about CTE, and here you are taking multiple instructions from CTE central--and you report to us with nothing at all factual or descriptive about CTE...except flowery praise and personal narrative about your sleeping and digestive experiences.

But I have to tell you this: In the end you must be a GOOD GUY--because you simply CAN'T restrain yourself from equivocating (saying CTE is the greatest thing in the history of pool--and then saying you're not sure whether you'll keep using it). To a careful reader (and perhaps even contrary to your conscious intentions) you reports come off as saying you think CTE is mostly BALONEY.

 

[JoeyA]

A generalized post like this makes me feel like I've just been witness to a drive-by shooting. Definitely a hit n run typed out of frustration and prejudice. Well, I've witnessed other debates where the the status quo was challenged and the traditionalists scoffed at the emerging evidence as absolutely flawed and without reason.

I fought the battle years ago with the baseball swing. I argued in favor of the rotational swing versus the linear swing, but was dismissed by many as a heretic and told to peddle my crap elsewhere. I perservered and slowly the naysayers turned their focus to what was happening and accepted the method as an accurate, viable technique.

Some debaters to this day still teach the "step into the ball, "use your arms" in their instruction. These coaches are usually unknowing dads at the lower levels who were taught it as kids themselves and just not informed. The eye opener personally and up front for my detractors was when my son would hit balls over 400' only weighing in at 150 lbs. They would try to spin it that he was "stepping into the ball", etc. As a wise man once said, "Well, that ain't it!".

Another example of bucking the system was in the martial arts. For years the traditionalists only believed in using the rear leg for generating knock out and board breaking power. I was in the fringe camp that said the front lead leg could develop enough wattage to do nearly the same thing and could be employed faster. I was also told that it would never be possible without a headstart and would telegraph my intentions. It was just not possible.

Eventually sparring champions started popping up who were using this technique. The schools in our organization dominated the fighting circuit and put out nationally recognized fighters. To this day we rank amongst the top producers in all divisions of sparring. Despite all this the debaters pick apart our successes and liberal views as nonsense. We go to their tournaments, but they don't don fighting gear. They disqualify us for excessive contact and discredit our "dangerous techniques". lol They close their tourneys so we can't attend. If they would open their minds, poke their heads up and look around, they might see that the world changes everyday.

It's okay to change and add a little something to your same old, same old. That's the attraction with Cte. Just because nobody has emailed the step by step instructions to you doesn't mean it's not out there. I busted my rump and went to the mountain to see for myself. It's not magical or hallucinatory. It contains real physical landmarks that are used visually by the shooter. As I've said before, "everybody sees them, most dimiss them and few exploit them".

If I tell you to line up center to edge and ask you "what do you see?", most don't understand. They want an arrow to pop up and start blinking. Well, actually at this point it is. You are not exploiting it yet. I spent days pondering this point, but I wasn't a quitter. I knew that mass hallucinations weren't a factor, so I explored all the avenues open to me and got my answers.

Many users on this forum have struggled to get these answers and have come up with their own interpretations of pivot systems without validation. They are ridiculed and laughed at and told they are gullible. And that they are naiive, easy to fool and are not rational thinkers. I believe differently. I believe these forward thinking individuals are the backbone of the change in our sport/game that over time will increase our total knowledge of how it all fits together. These free thinkers should be commended for their willingness to improve their abilities despite the peer pressure. We take the old and mold it with the new and make it better. We improve on the solid foundations we started with and gain insight in new revelations.

Of course the inquisition will always be a factor. Rational minds will prevail and dismiss manned flight and horseless carriages. In 1920 how many people thought we would be on our Moon less than 50 years later? The negative peer pressure is simply only that...negative pressure.

They say it is on us to prove our standpoint, yet they are afraid to heed our response when we tell them the answer is out there. Get off your butt and then form your opinion. It's easier to sit behind the keyboard and reinforce your negativity by consoling your opinions with your peer group of "petty", fearful trollers.

Sadly, the worst part of this debate is the amount of brain power this group retains. These are some of the finest minds in pool. They are the teachers and logical thinkers who frequent an open forum that has admitted to protecting the step by step process of Cte and wonder why there is no evidence. What's wrong with this picture?

I, for one, have the step by step instructions. If I was or was not specifically asked to give it out publically, I would not do so out of respect for the instructors and their familes relying on this income. I didn't post CJ Wileys aiming system on this forum or Jimmy Reid's diamond system either. Why is that? I own the dvd's and could secretly pass the info around. Think about it.

In the meantime get all the digs in you can as you sit on your sedentary a$$es behind the comfy keyboards. Don't bother to get up and scare the he!! out of your cozy business as usual lifestyles. It's easier to just say "Here's another post stating nothing. lol What a joke! Get out the tinfoil hats. lol". Too bad. That flickering light you see out of the corner of your eye is your credibility. I can honestly say whenever I post, anything you read I can say to your face exactly as I wrote it without reservation and stand behind it. Would you be able to do the same if I was standing in front of you, oh keyboard gladiators?

Best,
Mike

That's quite a post there Mike. I like it quite well.

Like you, I have studied many different aiming systems and there is value in all of them. I have not been able to move my game forward for some time now. When it does move forward, it is a millimeter at a time. I can't wait for a few weeks or a few months to see what takes place in my game by using CTE/Pro One. Right now, it is just a fun place to be. When I am thrust into the fire, I will either revert back to old tried and tested methods or I will hold tight and temper my steel. It will be fun to see which one happens and if I will stand the test of fire.

Thanks again for a well written post. I believe many people will be changing their minds about CTE/Pro One when the video comes out. Some may not want to admit their embarassment but many have simply not been to the mountain and are simply misinformed.

Still, when the video comes out, I hope that the ones who purchase it will allow the person who refined and defined CTE/Pro One to take credit and reap the benefits of his hard work.

I hope that this information will not be copied and pasted into blogs or other Internet sites. I still have to make the call to Hal Houle. I owe him a sincere apology for not adding CTE to my arsenal as I have come to know it sooner.

 

[ThePoliteSniper]

CTE Trancends Language - Young Chinese Girl gets CTE but Pat Johnson and Friends cannot.

Meaningless anecdote #314? You really are unique, writing so much yet saying almost nothing. No offense here. You are very passionate about this. But converting little girls doesn't show anything.

I find it hilarious that CTE can be learned by a Chinese girl and yet supposedly smart and highly educated people can't figure it out based on what's already out there.

Doesn't that make you question the issue a little bit? Smart and educated people also don't seem to buy into creationism but you can easily convince children. So what?


To all:
I actually didn't want to visit this forum any more because the more I read here the more disgusted I get. But I should have known better that the next visit is always inevitable.
Yesterday during a match I noticed something in my aiming process and immediately thought of CTE. So let me offer a truce (which I expect to fail). 2175487623 pages ago, GetMeThere said that CTE could be a "sighting method". And I think it is close. CTE definitely can't aim for you because the pocket is not part of the equation. This is not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. And to think that you can consciously judge the pivot length to pocket balls is ridiculous. Yet we all agree that players can benefit from using CTE. We are not deaf. And I am genuienly interested in how much progress CTE converts really make. Without putting anybody on the spot: Did you improve your high run in 14.1 or your runout records in 9ball and 8ball? Do the statistics back up your claims that CTE helped your game improve? If so, that's great.
This goes back to what mikepage suggested a long tme ago. Assuming you know where the cueball has to hit the objectball to send it into the pocket, a good way to "aim" is to line up cb and ob with your eyes first and then bring the cue in from the side. This way you can aim without letting the cue mess with your eyes which seems to cause problems for many players. I spent many hours practicing my stance and head alignment so this would usually not be a problem. But sometimes I can't get it quite right, like yesterday. And what did I do? On almost every shot I aimed with my eyes first and brought the cue in from the side including my bridge hand. It's not a pivot. My hand slides over the cloth until it sits right. I also don't have much room to move my hand around without adjusting my whole stance. I picked this method up a long time ago, but I would never call it an aiming system. Because the actual aiming process is already done without the cue and bridge hand. But it sounds similar to the CTE method, except for the first step where you aim center to edge. But look at Neil for example. He aims cueball-edge to objectball-center and claims that "IT WORKS!". Everybody seems to have his or her own version of CTE. And I bet most of them if not all of them include the cuefromtheside. We've heard this solution several times already, but now that I noticed this in my game and know how this might help, I'm conviced. IMO this is the only tangible benefit that CTE has to offer other than a boost in confidence. All the other stuff with the systematical parallel shift and pivot and the circles and the edges is either accidentally or purposefully added on and only distracts from the core issue.

But claims like "ghost ball fails yo" or "if you don't get CTE you can't play at a high level" ... LOL
Really. I don't know if this is funny or scary. Please stop saying stupid things!

 

[irock]

JB, great post. I play league here in Wi. and I have tried to show my teammates some things to help them play better, but they don't seem towant to change from the old feel method. I am reluctantly to show them everything I know because they could be on another team next year and could also show it to other people who I would never show anything to. Off season they never pick up a cue and wonder why they don't improve (duh). Anyone who won't put in some time and effort deserves to never get any better. Just my opinion.

 

[GetMeThere]

I would not do so out of respect for the instructors and their familes relying on this income. I didn't post CJ Wileys aiming system on this forum or Jimmy Reid's diamond system either. Why is that? I own the dvd's and could secretly pass the info around. Think about it.

I have thought about it. There are differences:

1) CTE was first brought on the scene by Hal Houle who specifically stated he wanted it to be FREE to the world--who gave it away to anyone who asked.

2) Some still arguing the point CONFERRED with Hal fifteen years ago, and came away saying it was the BALONEY then as it is now. Hal Houle's near MANIACAL sounding posts are still available for all to read. They're nonsense. Nothing has been said about them since to imply they don't REMAIN anything but nonsense.

3) Advocates are NOT silent on the issue. They DEMAND others believe the veracity of their claims. When asked, they DON'T SAY "Well, it's a secret." They say "The information is OUT THERE and AVAILABLE" but.....well, they're not just going to spoon feed it (lovely that John Barton's farewell post in this thread includes another spoon-feeding reference).

4) There still is NO SUBSTANTIAL INFORMATION from which one could get some hints of PRINCIPLES of CTE. The atomic bomb was one of the largest secret projects undertaken; yet even CHILDREN understand the basic principles upon which it is based. Substantial ideas about something can be put forth, and the DETAILS withheld, and in that way outsiders CAN come to reason that the idea has substance, without being able to use it themselves.

5) One principle of CTE IS out in the open: It claims to provide "exact" (Stan's promotional literature about Pro-One) aiming solutions for pocketing balls by referencing relative ball position ONLY, and not pocket position (this was again confirmed by Dave Segal in a post within the last day or two). Well such a system CANNOT work--and that can be determined by the SIMPLEST analysis--probably by an intelligent and thoughtful twelve-year-old.

 

[JoeyA]

Baptism by fire............

Meaningless anecdote #314? You really are unique, writing so much yet saying almost nothing. No offense here. You are very passionate about this. But converting little girls doesn't show anything.



Doesn't that make you question the issue a little bit? Smart and educated people also don't seem to buy into creationism but you can easily convince children. So what?


To all:
I actually didn't want to visit this forum any more because the more I read here the more disgusted I get. But I should have known better that the next visit is always inevitable.
Yesterday during a match I noticed something in my aiming process and immediately thought of CTE. So let me offer a truce (which I expect to fail). 2175487623 pages ago, GetMeThere said that CTE could be a "sighting method". And I think it is close. CTE definitely can't aim for you because the pocket is not part of the equation. This is not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. And to think that you can consciously judge the pivot length to pocket balls is ridiculous. Yet we all agree that players can benefit from using CTE. We are not deaf. And I am genuienly interested in how much progress CTE converts really make. Without putting anybody on the spot: Did you improve your high run in 14.1 or your runout records in 9ball and 8ball? Do the statistics back up your claims that CTE helped your game improve? If so, that's great.
This goes back to what mikepage suggested a long tme ago. Assuming you know where the cueball has to hit the objectball to send it into the pocket, a good way to "aim" is to line up cb and ob with your eyes first and then bring the cue in from the side. This way you can aim without letting the cue mess with your eyes which seems to cause problems for many players. I spent many hours practicing my stance and head alignment so this would usually not be a problem. But sometimes I can't get it quite right, like yesterday. And what did I do? On almost every shot I aimed with my eyes first and brought the cue in from the side including my bridge hand. It's not a pivot. My hand slides over the cloth until it sits right. I also don't have much room to move my hand around without adjusting my whole stance. I picked this method up a long time ago, but I would never call it an aiming system. Because the actual aiming process is already done without the cue and bridge hand. But it sounds similar to the CTE method, except for the first step where you aim center to edge. But look at Neil for example. He aims cueball-edge to objectball-center and claims that "IT WORKS!". Everybody seems to have his or her own version of CTE. And I bet most of them if not all of them include the cuefromtheside. We've heard this solution several times already, but now that I noticed this in my game and know how this might help, I'm conviced. IMO this is the only tangible benefit that CTE has to offer other than a boost in confidence. All the other stuff with the systematical parallel shift and pivot and the circles and the edges is either accidentally or purposefully added on and only distracts from the core issue.

But claims like "ghost ball fails yo" or "if you don't get CTE you can't play at a high level" ... LOL
Really. I don't know if this is funny or scary. Please stop saying stupid things!

I actually like your post. You say a lot of sound things but I had to defend my little statement which you quoted, just so everyone knows where I am coming from.

The premise for my statement is that once you are exposed to the knowledge of CTE/Pro One, if you don't see any value in it, you surely aren't capable of knowing what it takes to play pool at a high level. This doesn't mean that you have to know CTE/Pro One to play at a high level. I hope that makes it more clear. Sometimes the written word is tough to get across.

I'll still add this. I believe with absolute certainty that the VAST majority of pool players will improve their game using CTE/Pro One, especially those who do the work, watch the video, watch the video, go to the mountain, pay their dues yawn, yawn, yawn. :smile: Some may improve dramatically, other may only improve slightly and a few will not improve at all but at least after viewing the video by Stan, there will be one piece of documentation that you can trust.

If I hadn't had the lesson with Stan, or seen the first draft of the video, I might still be on the fence. It's really not rocket science but it is PRECISE and you do aim. CTE/Pro One is a visual aiming system. I think there are other benefits to be gained from learning CTE/Pro One but I'll hold up on those claims until I have been able to test them under fire.

One of the problems with CTE/Pro One is that the vocabulary that is used is alien to most people and once that vocabulary becomes second nature, the student can comprehend and execute CTE/Pro One in short order. At least that was the case with me.

Right now, I'm just having fun using CTE/Pro One. The real test will come later.

 

[dr_dave]

There hasn't been a single post by any CTE advocate (ever) that showed the slightest comprehension of the most simple questions raised about it. After thousands of posts all we know for sure is that CTE users not only don't know the answers - they don't even understand the questions.

I honestly hope Stan's DVD can change this situation.

Hopefully, after the DVD release, people will be able to agree on a meaningful, complete, and "official" description of what CTE actually is. Only then can we have a meaningful discussion about how and why it works and when and why it doesn't.

I agree that the versions described on my CTE resource page are incomplete and create more questions than answers (although, I've done my best to attempt to answer many of the important questions), but that's all we have to go on until Stan's DVD and/or Spidey's tome come out.

I think it is ridiculous that we have spent so much time discussing and debating something that hasn't even been defined. Obviously, it should be the responsibility of the CTE proponents to fully define their system, not me (despite the many requests for me to share my "personal experience" for "my version" of CTE).

Something like Stan's DVD is long overdue, and I hope it helps put an end to all of this foolishness.

Regards,
Dave

 

[GetMeThere]

The premise for my statement is that once you are exposed to the knowledge of CTE/Pro One, if you don't see any value in it, you surely aren't capable of knowing what it takes to play pool at a high level. This doesn't mean that you have to know CTE/Pro One to play at a high level. I hope that makes it more clear.

Yeah, that's clear as mud.

It COULD be logically true: CTE has APPARENT VALUE, but one doesn't necessarily need to use IT specifically--because other things have equal value, and one could use those. BUT, if you aren't able to see that you lack something that is necessary to play at a high level.

Yeah...that COULD be true.

But is sure SOUNDS like baloney, to me.

The only way out of this one, Joey, is to answer the question: If CTE has VALUE, but there are OTHER things one can use instead to be able to play at a "high level," then please tell us: WHAT ARE THOSE OTHER THINGS?

 

[Neil]

Joey:

I don't have to tell you that I think you're a classy guy, and an absolute ASSET to not only these boards, but to the pool world in general. I think the world of what you represent. You know this.

Without getting into a point-by-point, I think the problems on these boards with this particular topic (pivot-aiming) are the following:

1. There are certain folks on this board (the CTE advocates mainly, but to a lesser degree also, the CTE critics) that don't know the difference between criticism of an idea, and criticism of them personally. Admittedly, the original poster / originator of this thread foisted a WITHERING attack on CTE. But inasmuch as I disagreed with his aggressive tactics, I do know the difference between an attack on an idea and an attack on a person. I don't know the OP. But I recognize the template of what he was doing, which was academic debate / request for clarity. Yes, he attempted to attract bees with vinegar rather than honey -- and those bees came a-stingin'.

2. Let's talk about those bees for a second (specifically the "major players"). We have one that continually displayed a lack of ability to distinguish the difference between an attack of an idea and an attack on him personally, calling people vicious names and ultimately getting banned for it. We have another whose only contribution to these discussions are "pile on" one-liner zings (I'd called him out on this previously). We have another whose a very well respected product maker, prodigious originator of creative ideas in his product line, extremely well-written and detail-oriented, but again, takes personally an attack on an idea, and quickly "goes down with his boat" by taking a thread death-spiraling into the ground. We have another who is an unofficially-established "AZB Fellow" with his situational "what if" game/shot scenarios that pique the readership's knowledge (I know that I personally look forward to his threads on this topic and other contributory stuff), but shows another side with taking personally an attack on an idea, and almost overstepped the same line that the first "bee" was banned for. There are others, of course, but the common denominator is that lack of "knowing the difference" between an attack on an idea, and on a person.

3. Again, I'll reiterate that the OP used the wrong technique to try to get the science behind CTE clarified. (I mean, look at the *title* of this thread!) Instead of coaxing the bees out, he kicked and knocked over the hive. And because he was a relative unknown (a new member of AZB), he was, in effect, dressed entirely in black -- a color that our CTE African Killer bees go after with ferocity.

Attacking an idea is done all the time in the academic community. It's the way ideas are tested to be sure they can stand up to scrutiny. It's the way those ideas that are flawed are weeded out, to pave the way for new ideas that are better. It's the way to weed-out "religion" from "feet on terra firma" science. But the sad thing is, those certain factions of our readership can't recognize it for what it is, and do not possess the "intestinal fortitude" to not let their emotions be their first (and only, in some cases) response.

On the flip-side of the coin, the academia possibly don't keep in mind AZB is read by folks from all walks of life. This is not an academic setting by any stretch of the imagination. So if one comes on here with bold attacks on *any* idea, especially one that's rife with controversy as pivot-aiming is, that one can expect some vitriol returned to his/her *person*, because that's the only way some of the readership know how to parry.

I wish things were different, but it is what it is.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful in its own little way,
-Sean

Since #2 was obviously meant to me, I'll respond to it. I've always had to work very hard for anything worthwhile I have received, with very few exceptions. And, those exceptions meant the world to me. And, I take pride in what accomplishments I have attained from that hard work.

I am always open to new ideas about pool. I firmly believe that the best we have doesn't come even close to what is actually attainable in this sport. We are all held back by our own mental limitations. Venoms trickshots are an example of this. He broke through the "4 minute mile", and soon you will see others do the same. The same is true with how pool is even played. That is why I post the scenarios that I do. To make people think "outside the box". I'm always looking for something to improve my game.

CTE was supported by some people that I have respect for, so I gleaned what I could from their posts on the subject. Over a year ago, I tried it, and got nowhere real fast, and gave it up. But, I kept an ear open for more on it. Later, a piece here and a piece there, I tried something, and it opened a door for me. I worked with it, and the door wasn't only opened, the whole blame wall fell down!

I knew I wasn't doing it "right", but it sure worked wonders for me! I haven't posted what I do publicly because I know it won't meet scrutiny. On paper, it won't make sense. In the real world, it does. The real world is all I care about. Does it work or not? I'm not writing a book about it, so I don't care if it works on paper or not. I can show others what I am doing, and it works for them too. So, I'm happy about it, and really looking forward to learning the how's and why's from Stan on his DVD. It can only help me more.


When someone like GMT comes on here, and acts the way he does, it puts me in defensive mode. And, I got to where I don't want to be anymore, so I backed off. I wasn't going to give him power over me. Where I was getting pretty mad at him, I ended up laughing at his posts.

I believe that man is a fraud. I could be wrong. But, reading his posts, if he where to be who he claims he is, he would not be trapping himself in so many of his posts. He is not near as smart as he thinks he is. He has even argued against things HE has said because he couldn't keep track of all the B.S. Furthermore, he is an individual that I actually feel sorry for. His sole goal is attention and someone to argue with. Arguing seems to be the only recourse he has to try and keep someone in a conversation.

When he crossed the line, and starting calling CTE'ers names, yes, I lost it, and my old "fighting self" started coming out. I believe in calling a spade a spade. And, I believe he is a fraud. He admits that he doesn't even play pool anymore, hasn't tried CTE and won't try it, has a lifetime high run of just 4 racks, but wants to argue with those who make a living teaching this stuff. He has no credibility with me, and less and less with each post of his.

I am for whatever helps people. When I see someone that knows nothing try and do things that hurt people, yes, I will call them out on it. I'm quite sure he will soon be on here to discredit me some more. I don't really care, and actually am looking forward to it because I'm sure I will find some more amusement in his posts.

 

[cookie man]

Yeah, that's clear as mud.

It COULD be logically true: CTE has APPARENT VALUE, but one doesn't necessarily need to use IT specifically--because other things have equal value, and one could use those. BUT, if you aren't able to see that you lack something that is necessary to play at a high level.

Yeah...that COULD be true.

But is sure SOUNDS like baloney, to me.

The only way out of this one, Joey, is to answer the question: If CTE has VALUE, but there are OTHER things one can use instead to be able to play at a "high level," then please tell us: WHAT ARE THOSE OTHER THINGS?

Your answer is some people just have natural talent and most people don't. Just like you have the gift of internet typing.

 

[cookie man]

A generalized post like this makes me feel like I've just been witness to a drive-by shooting. Definitely a hit n run typed out of frustration and prejudice. Well, I've witnessed other debates where the the status quo was challenged and the traditionalists scoffed at the emerging evidence as absolutely flawed and without reason.

I fought the battle years ago with the baseball swing. I argued in favor of the rotational swing versus the linear swing, but was dismissed by many as a heretic and told to peddle my crap elsewhere. I perservered and slowly the naysayers turned their focus to what was happening and accepted the method as an accurate, viable technique.

Some debaters to this day still teach the "step into the ball, "use your arms" in their instruction. These coaches are usually unknowing dads at the lower levels who were taught it as kids themselves and just not informed. The eye opener personally and up front for my detractors was when my son would hit balls over 400' only weighing in at 150 lbs. They would try to spin it that he was "stepping into the ball", etc. As a wise man once said, "Well, that ain't it!".

Another example of bucking the system was in the martial arts. For years the traditionalists only believed in using the rear leg for generating knock out and board breaking power. I was in the fringe camp that said the front lead leg could develop enough wattage to do nearly the same thing and could be employed faster. I was also told that it would never be possible without a headstart and would telegraph my intentions. It was just not possible.

Eventually sparring champions started popping up who were using this technique. The schools in our organization dominated the fighting circuit and put out nationally recognized fighters. To this day we rank amongst the top producers in all divisions of sparring. Despite all this the debaters pick apart our successes and liberal views as nonsense. We go to their tournaments, but they don't don fighting gear. They disqualify us for excessive contact and discredit our "dangerous techniques". lol They close their tourneys so we can't attend. If they would open their minds, poke their heads up and look around, they might see that the world changes everyday.

It's okay to change and add a little something to your same old, same old. That's the attraction with Cte. Just because nobody has emailed the step by step instructions to you doesn't mean it's not out there. I busted my rump and went to the mountain to see for myself. It's not magical or hallucinatory. It contains real physical landmarks that are used visually by the shooter. As I've said before, "everybody sees them, most dimiss them and few exploit them".

If I tell you to line up center to edge and ask you "what do you see?", most don't understand. They want an arrow to pop up and start blinking. Well, actually at this point it is. You are not exploiting it yet. I spent days pondering this point, but I wasn't a quitter. I knew that mass hallucinations weren't a factor, so I explored all the avenues open to me and got my answers.

Many users on this forum have struggled to get these answers and have come up with their own interpretations of pivot systems without validation. They are ridiculed and laughed at and told they are gullible. And that they are naiive, easy to fool and are not rational thinkers. I believe differently. I believe these forward thinking individuals are the backbone of the change in our sport/game that over time will increase our total knowledge of how it all fits together. These free thinkers should be commended for their willingness to improve their abilities despite the peer pressure. We take the old and mold it with the new and make it better. We improve on the solid foundations we started with and gain insight in new revelations.

Of course the inquisition will always be a factor. Rational minds will prevail and dismiss manned flight and horseless carriages. In 1920 how many people thought we would be on our Moon less than 50 years later? The negative peer pressure is simply only that...negative pressure.

They say it is on us to prove our standpoint, yet they are afraid to heed our response when we tell them the answer is out there. Get off your butt and then form your opinion. It's easier to sit behind the keyboard and reinforce your negativity by consoling your opinions with your peer group of "petty", fearful trollers.

Sadly, the worst part of this debate is the amount of brain power this group retains. These are some of the finest minds in pool. They are the teachers and logical thinkers who frequent an open forum that has admitted to protecting the step by step process of Cte and wonder why there is no evidence. What's wrong with this picture?

I, for one, have the step by step instructions. If I was or was not specifically asked to give it out publicly, I would not do so out of respect for the instructors and their familes relying on this income. I didn't post CJ Wileys aiming system on this forum or Jimmy Reid's diamond system either. Why is that? I own the dvd's and could secretly pass the info around. Think about it.

In the meantime get all the digs in you can as you sit on your sedentary a$$es behind the comfy keyboards. Don't bother to get up and scare the he!! out of your cozy business as usual lifestyles. It's easier to just say "Here's another post stating nothing. lol What a joke! Get out the tinfoil hats. lol". Too bad. That flickering light you see out of the corner of your eye is your credibility. I can honestly say whenever I post, anything you read I can say to your face exactly as I wrote it without reservation and stand behind it. Would you be able to do the same if I was standing in front of you, oh keyboard gladiators?

Best,
Mike

Take note, this is good posting.

 

[cookie man]

Joey:

I don't have to tell you that I think you're a classy guy, and an absolute ASSET to not only these boards, but to the pool world in general. I think the world of what you represent. You know this.

Without getting into a point-by-point, I think the problems on these boards with this particular topic (pivot-aiming) are the following:

1. There are certain folks on this board (the CTE advocates mainly, but to a lesser degree also, the CTE critics) that don't know the difference between criticism of an idea, and criticism of them personally. Admittedly, the original poster / originator of this thread foisted a WITHERING attack on CTE. But inasmuch as I disagreed with his aggressive tactics, I do know the difference between an attack on an idea and an attack on a person. I don't know the OP. But I recognize the template of what he was doing, which was academic debate / request for clarity. Yes, he attempted to attract bees with vinegar rather than honey -- and those bees came a-stingin'.

2. Let's talk about those bees for a second (specifically the "major players"). We have one that continually displayed a lack of ability to distinguish the difference between an attack of an idea and an attack on him personally, calling people vicious names and ultimately getting banned for it. We have another whose only contribution to these discussions are "pile on" one-liner zings (I'd called him out on this previously). We have another whose a very well respected product maker, prodigious originator of creative ideas in his product line, extremely well-written and detail-oriented, but again, takes personally an attack on an idea, and quickly "goes down with his boat" by taking a thread death-spiraling into the ground. We have another who is an unofficially-established "AZB Fellow" with his situational "what if" game/shot scenarios that pique the readership's knowledge (I know that I personally look forward to his threads on this topic and other contributory stuff), but shows another side with taking personally an attack on an idea, and almost overstepped the same line that the first "bee" was banned for. There are others, of course, but the common denominator is that lack of "knowing the difference" between an attack on an idea, and on a person.

3. Again, I'll reiterate that the OP used the wrong technique to try to get the science behind CTE clarified. (I mean, look at the *title* of this thread!) Instead of coaxing the bees out, he kicked and knocked over the hive. And because he was a relative unknown (a new member of AZB), he was, in effect, dressed entirely in black -- a color that our CTE African Killer bees go after with ferocity.

Attacking an idea is done all the time in the academic community. It's the way ideas are tested to be sure they can stand up to scrutiny. It's the way those ideas that are flawed are weeded out, to pave the way for new ideas that are better. It's the way to weed-out "religion" from "feet on terra firma" science. But the sad thing is, those certain factions of our readership can't recognize it for what it is, and do not possess the "intestinal fortitude" to not let their emotions be their first (and only, in some cases) response.

On the flip-side of the coin, the academia possibly don't keep in mind AZB is read by folks from all walks of life. This is not an academic setting by any stretch of the imagination. So if one comes on here with bold attacks on *any* idea, especially one that's rife with controversy as pivot-aiming is, that one can expect some vitriol returned to his/her *person*, because that's the only way some of the readership know how to parry.

I wish things were different, but it is what it is.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful in its own little way,
-Sean

I always thought PJ was the forum police on here, but with GTM and SEAN's posting I'm not so sure. Good job guys, lol.