why did jose hit the 9 this way?

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Would the two different methods result in the same cue ball path?
If the tip hits the same CB spot traveling in the same direction at the same speed, everything about the shot will be the same, regardless of the path the tip takes to get there (straight or curved).

It's easy to test.

pj
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
The cue ball will move nearly in the direction the tip is moving at the moment of contact. For a normal stroke, that is nearly straight forward except for a little cue ball deflection.

One thing the swoop believers have failed to do is precisely describe the path of the cue tip. It would be nice to see a scale drawing of what they imagine the tip's path to be and compare that to the reality of the video of what actually happens on their best swooping stroke.

Good point.

I tried to hit center cb using an outward flick of the wrist motion at the moment of tip contact, thinking it would apply left english by sweeping the tip across the cb. It felt and looked like a center cb hit and the cb would rebound off the cushion with left spin. But the chalk mark on each shot where the cb took left spin was slightly left of center, not dead center as it looked or felt in real time. So I began aiming to strike the cb slightly right of center, still swiping/flicking the tip to the left at impact, and the cb comes straight off the cushion, no spin. Looking at the chalk marks I found each of these shots had a dead center hit on the cb.

Sometimes it's better to do your own experiments as proof than to simply take someone else's word for it. I now know that the flick of the wrist shot I learned is really just a slight massé, only the cue isn't elevated through the cb until my wrist flicks it. But I can achieve the same results with a straight yet elevated stroke, striking the cb with bottom left english.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Easy to Test

To know for sure whether a swoop stroke and a straight stroke produce different CB action, here's a simple test you can do on any pool table with any marked cue ball (or object ball used as a cue ball).

Using the simple controls described below to be sure you get meaningful results, hit half the shots with a straight stroke and half with a swoop stroke to see if the measured results (step 3) are different.

1. Use a marked ball as your "CB" with the marking (stripe, number, etc.) centered, facing you and oriented the same way each time. [For instance, to test shots with maximum sidespin, use a striped ball with the stripe vertical and facing you, and use the edge of the stripe on the horizontal "equator" as your "tip target".]

2. Hit the ball on your chosen "tip target" (a part of the ball's markings), to propel it straight across the table (diamond to diamond) - put a target on the far rail, like a piece of chalk or two blocking balls, to easily confirm you're hitting exactly straight across table perpendicularly into the rail.

3. Hit the "cue ball" just hard enough to rebound to the near rail. Mark the spot it hits on the near rail. <- This is how the CB action (spin effect) is measured for each shot.

4. Check the chalk mark after each shot to be sure you hit right on the "tip target".

5. Don't count any shot if (1) you didn't hit the far rail target, (2) the chalk mark isn't exactly on the "tip target", or (3) the speed is different.


pj
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
If you can test it, give it a try. I'd be curious to see what you find. I believe you'll be objective about it.
I will, but I never swoop, so my results might not be the most compelling. And it'll probably have to wait until I return from a trip I'm on.

I'd be more interested to see the results of those who think swoop strokes are effective.

pj
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
I strongly encourage everyone interested in this thread to read through the entire stroke swoop/swipe resource page. It answers most of the questions in this thread. It also clears up many of the common misconceptions. Things that might be of particular interest on the page include:

- alternatives to using a stroke swoop

- list of potential benefits of a swoop/swipe stroke

- a carefully designed experiment anybody can use to effectively compare swoop and non-swoop strokes.

FYI, I am not an effective stroke swooper, but that is immaterial to the discussion, and it has nothing to do with the conclusions and facts on the resource page. Regardless, Tom Ross, who is mentioned on the page and featured in one of the videos, was a very effective swooper.

I don't want to get involved in the discussion or point out all of the inaccuracies and misconceptions in this thread because I have already participated in countless threads like this in the past. Also, the stroke swoop/swipe resource page already addresses everything in great detail with explanations, illustrations, videos, and articles.

Enjoy,
Dave
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Things that might be of particular interest on the page include:
...
- list of potential benefits of a swoop/swipe stroke
This thread made me think of a potential benefit too:

By increasing the squirt correction angle, swooping can "automatically adjust" BHE to work better with a higher-squirt stick.

pj
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I strongly encourage everyone interested in this thread to read through the entire stroke swoop/swipe resource page. It answers most of the questions in this thread. It also clears up many of the common misconceptions. Things that might be of particular interest on the page include:

- alternatives to using a stroke swoop

- list of potential benefits of a swoop/swipe stroke

- a carefully designed experiment anybody can use to effectively compare swoop and non-swoop strokes.

FYI, I am not an effective stroke swooper, but that is immaterial to the discussion, and it has nothing to do with the conclusions and facts on the resource page. Regardless, Tom Ross, who is mentioned on the page and featured in one of the videos, was a very effective swooper.

I don't want to get involved in the discussion or point out all of the inaccuracies and misconceptions in this thread because I have already participated in countless threads like this in the past. Also, the stroke swoop/swipe resource page already addresses everything in great detail with explanations, illustrations, videos, and articles.

Enjoy,
Dave

Well if you're going to mention inaccurate information in this thread, then let's mention yours. The reason for the creation of swoop stroke was not to accomplish getting more side spin than with other methods but to accomplish less cue ball squirt, thus enabling the player to aim truer to the shot without having to adjust for significant squirt as with the parallel method of applying side spin, which was the only other method used at that time.

Instead you address the question that nobody asks which is whether or not you get more side spin.

It is not a swoop stroke if the pool cue is aligned at an angle at address and at impact. Yet, you show examples of it being aligned at an angle.

Dave, there's plenty of room in our sport for both scientists and feel players. Just make sure you know what you're talking about before you post something as if you were an authority on the subject.

Here's a question you should be asking yourself: How does a player accomplish the same amount of side spin (or close to it) with the pool cue is aligned perpendicular to the center axis at impact? Does the tip stay on the cb longer due to the change of direction as the cue follows through, since the cb isn't out of the way yet? Or could the swoop stroke actually be a double hit? If you can answer those questions then you would really be making a contribution to the subject of swoop-stroking.
 
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dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
This thread made me think of a potential benefit too:

By increasing the squirt correction angle, swooping can "automatically adjust" BHE to work better with a higher-squirt stick.

pj
chgo
I agree. In fact, that is already included on the resource page as the 2nd advantage.

Regards,
Dave
 

dr_dave

Instructional Author
Gold Member
Silver Member
Well if you're going to mention inaccurate information in this thread, then let's mention yours. The reason for the creation of swoop stroke was not to accomplish getting more side spin than with other methods but to accomplish less cue ball squirt, thus enabling the player to aim truer to the shot without having to adjust for significant squirt as with the parallel method of applying side spin, which was the only other method used at that time.
Fran,

Check out the swoop stroke advantages listed on the resource page. What you describe is clearly listed. In past threads, many people have claimed they can get more spin with a swoop stroke. This might be true for them as individuals, but it is not true in general. I do focus on this aspect on the resource page because it was very difficult to convince these people in the past.


How does a player accomplish the same amount of side spin (or close to it) with the pool cue is aligned perpendicular to the center axis at impact?
You can get a small amount of spin with perpendicular contact per the info on the resource page, but not as much as you might think.

Does the tip stay on the cb longer due to the change of direction as the cue follows through, since the cb isn't out of the way yet?
A swoop stroke does not affect the incredibly brief ip contact time. The CB is long gone before the follow-through takes place.

Or could the swoop stroke actually be a double hit?
It is not. If it were, the CB reaction would be very different (and probably undesirable).

Regards,
Dabe
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...you address the question that nobody asks which is whether or not you get more side spin.
The info on Dave's website has been created and collected over many years - it isn't just his immediate response to this thread. Over those years I've heard many swoopers claim they can get more spin that way - maybe most of them.

How does a player accomplish the same amount of side spin (or close to it) with the pool cue is aligned perpendicular to the center axis at impact?
To understand the dynamics of swooping we need to focus on the tip's direction of movement at impact, not the stick's angle. With the same contact point, direction of tip movement and speed, both techniques produce identical results: same amount of spin, same amount of squirt, etc. One reason we know this is because they must produce the same CB speed and direction or the shot won't work.

pj
chgo
 
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
This thread made me think of a potential benefit too:

By increasing the squirt correction angle, swooping can "automatically adjust" BHE to work better with a higher-squirt stick.

I agree. In fact, that is already included on the resource page as the 2nd advantage.
Darn, I read that and thought it was similar but not the same - now that I've reread it I see it is the same. Well, it bears repeating... :)

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AtLarge

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
... The reason for the creation of swoop stroke was not to accomplish getting more side spin than with other methods but to accomplish less cue ball squirt, thus enabling the player to aim truer to the shot without having to adjust for significant squirt as with the parallel method of applying side spin, which was the only other method used at that time. ...

The use of back-hand english (with no swoop) for applying side spin has been around a long time. Mike Eufemia wrote about it in his unpublished book 40+ years ago. He called it the "swivel system" -- line up on the cue ball with center-axis aim, swivel the stick (move the back hand) to the side-spin position, take several warm-up strokes on that new line, and shoot straight through.
 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
The reason for the creation of swoop stroke was not to accomplish getting more side spin than with other methods but to accomplish less cue ball squirt, thus enabling the player to aim truer to the shot without having to adjust for significant squirt as with the parallel method of applying side spin, which was the only other method used at that time.
A swoop stroke doesn't produce less cue ball squirt; it simply employs a different (non-straight) stroke to produce the same cue tip direction of movement at impact, correcting for squirt in the same way (by angling the tip's movement across the shot line) while allowing the initial cue alignment to be on the shot line (not angled across it).

The technique sacrifices (at least some, depending on how good you are with it) stroke consistency/accuracy for the comfort of lining up "straight".

pj
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BC21

Poolology
Gold Member
Silver Member
.....

To understand the dynamics of swooping we need to focus on the tip's direction of movement at impact, not the stick's angle. With the same contact point, direction of tip movement and speed, both techniques produce identical results: same amount of spin, same amount of squirt, etc. One reason we know this is because they must produce the same CB speed and direction or the shot won't work.

pj
chgo

I believe what makes it confusing is that the tip's direction of movement is not the same, nor is the speed of the tip at impact the same. The difference is shown here, where on the left the cue tip comes straight to the point of contact with a stroke speed of X. The shot on the right shows a sweeping/swooping tip with an exact same stroke speed, but some of the directional force at impact is lost due to what appears to be a glancing/sideways blow.

This image is what swoopers imagine or feel is happening, or at least how I felt or imagined it happening whenever I'd shoot a similar style shot. But looking at chalk marks on the cb afterwards, I'm inclined to believe that nothing special is happening, and I can produce the same desired cb action that I was getting with this little wrist flick by using bhe or parallel english with a slightly more elevated stroke. But feeling the shot is important, so if a player feels like certain little flicks work better, and results confirm it, why do it any differently? To each their own, based on their experience.

 

Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
...the tip's direction of movement is not the same, nor is the speed of the tip at impact the same.
I don't know what you mean by this. Any tip direction and speed produced with one kind of stroke can be duplicated with the other.

pj
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Patrick Johnson

Fish of the Day
Silver Member
Swooping isn't the only stroke technique that gets credited with special abilities. For instance, some have claimed they can "time" their stroke or "accelerate through" the CB to increase tip/ball contact time and get "extra" spin. These are understandable visualizations, but mostly inaccurate.

I think the important thing that's most often misunderstood by stroke enthusiasts is that tip/ball impacts are practically instantaneous - the only "information" the tip transmits to the ball is its instantaneous mass, speed and direction. Stroke nuances like timing or the tip's route are only means to this simple end.

pj
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FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A swoop stroke doesn't produce less cue ball squirt; it simply employs a different (non-straight) stroke to produce the same cue tip direction of movement at impact, correcting for squirt in the same way (by angling the tip's movement across the shot line) while allowing the initial cue alignment to be on the shot line (not angled across it).

The technique sacrifices (at least some, depending on how good you are with it) stroke consistency/accuracy for the comfort of lining up "straight".

pj
chgo

With all due respect, Patrick, you've already admitted that you aren't familiar with the stroke, at least to the extent that you haven't done it enough to draw conclusions. Just remember that when you're thinking of posting things like this. Do you really know enough to say what you said here?
 

FranCrimi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The use of back-hand english (with no swoop) for applying side spin has been around a long time. Mike Eufemia wrote about it in his unpublished book 40+ years ago. He called it the "swivel system" -- line up on the cue ball with center-axis aim, swivel the stick (move the back hand) to the side-spin position, take several warm-up strokes on that new line, and shoot straight through.

Interesting. First I've heard of it and I knew several people who knew Euphemia well and never mentioned it. In fact, one of them gave me an unpublished document by him on 14.1 strategy which I still have. Anyway, it must have been a very well kept secret among a select few.
 
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