Why do alot of tables go unlevel in just a few months...

[greyghost]

I've seen many many tables go from perfectly level and months later they roll off??? What's the cause of this? To me a table should get more and more level over time not more and more unlevel. And I'm talking about Gold Crown type tables, not cheap light tables that shift.


G.G.

 

[OTLB]

Bet your talking about tables on cement slabs?

 

[greyghost]

Bet your talking about tables on cement slabs?

You know I wasn't thinking about that but predominately most of the pool halls with this situation occurring was cement slabs...but with just thin rug under the table...why whats the significance of this??? You've piqued my curosity.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Yes, I'd like to know too since I'm going to be putting a table in my garage.

 

[greyghost]

Yes, I'd like to know too since I'm going to be putting a table in my garage.

Isn't it great to know your going to have your own table? The Fast Eddies here is loud and really hot at times and will drive you crazy...now all I have to do is wake up and go in my living room! I got a nice Brunswick "Classic" I just wish I knew what the things valued at I feel like I stole it for $900 with the top just waiting on the velocity pro from our friend dartman:thumbup:


G.G.

P.S. dont worry its all pool stuff on top the table except the guitar, lol was nice that all my things extra things I was going to put in storage ended up fitting under the table. The grew up playing at my uncles house on an original GC2 and sadly all he uses it for these days is to keep his fishing tackle in order

 

[OTLB]

Well cement floors move. I have seen it over and over. FYI

 

[greyghost]

Well cement floors move. I have seen it over and over. FYI

And wood floored structures don't??? Everything moves to a certain degree but a table thats been sitting there in an old structure the slates should not keep moving every six months....too much footprint on and not enough psi to cause the drifting I'm talking about.

I do have much background in construction and base building in concrete and asphalt and that theory does not hold to what I know about concrete, hell I was in school for that. Now if the base was built wrong then that is a definate possibility, for the concrete would move alot....and it would crack too.

So by your statement no matter what I put a table on its going to always constantly need re-adjustment? This just seems incorrect to me, but please explain better if I'm just over analyzing the situation. Other key things are the fact that seams can raise up and I've seen it happen...I think its a table mechanic problem...so whats the mechanics problem? Those same tables end up having bowed and cupped slates too after all the adjustment and adjustment. so what gives????


This is a really stumping question for me and really do appreciate everyones input.

G.G.

 

[xianmacx]

I have a table in my basement on cement floors. Its an older house so I know some moisture gets in. My table goes out of level in spring and then again in fall. Happens every year. Major temp changes and rain cause the concrete to move.

 

[OTLB]

Yeap. Especially during seasonal climates in cold north areas. Also the foundations are down below frost lines but not the floors are not; for example in a poolroom at ground level.

There is water pressure under the floor in the spring, then in the fall-winter it changes. I use to go around before a tournament and check the tables for level at Bristol Billiards for those of you who know that room. They were never the same and cement floors do move throughout the year. I know one table that I play on that the ball drift is so bad in the winter that you can get a whole ball width across the short end and play some wild shots actually going around balls and letting them die in the pocket at slow speed. Its actually sort of fun and a huge advantage for a player who knows. Personally I Love it. Then it goes back to level like right now and guys who think they know it will drift can't make balls anymore and don't know why.

Tables are like golf greens sometimes and you should always get a line on them before playing on them IMO. Knowing the table helps especially if it does roll off. Using your knowledge is part of the game and although a table should be level it isn't always.

Plus many cement floors are not compacted well and have uneven fill. Really I have seen so many cracked cement floors I can't remember that many that were not. Good cement floors have expansion joints for this reason. Does that help?

Tweeking a table to address a drift might actually just be creating en even larger problem later when it goes back to its original state. So my end of the day thought is this. If the table was set up in the summer, check it for bad rolls in the summer and not for example in the winter. I think you know what I mean. Also the table wood expands and contracts. Even Steel expands and contracts.

 

[OTLB]

Yes, I'd like to know too since I'm going to be putting a table in my garage.

Don't know about your area but sdbilliards should be able to answer that. My guess is that it may not be as bad as in the northeast or other northern states where the temp changes are more drastic but he can verify.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Don't know about your area but sdbilliards should be able to answer that.

Thanks for the info. I'm not too worried about climate change related level problems, as I live in Southern California.

And I will ask Donny about it. He's doing my set-up. :thumbup:

 

[63Kcode]

The ground here in N. Tx. can rise and fall as much as 5" depending on the time of year and rain fall. I can see where it would be hard to keep a table level when the ground moves.

Larry

 

[OTLB]

And wood floored structures don't??? Everything moves to a certain degree but a table thats been sitting there in an old structure the slates should not keep moving every six months....too much footprint on and not enough psi to cause the drifting I'm talking about.

I do have much background in construction and base building in concrete and asphalt and that theory does not hold to what I know about concrete, hell I was in school for that. Now if the base was built wrong then that is a definate possibility, for the concrete would move alot....and it would crack too.

So by your statement no matter what I put a table on its going to always constantly need re-adjustment? This just seems incorrect to me, but please explain better if I'm just over analyzing the situation. Other key things are the fact that seams can raise up and I've seen it happen...I think its a table mechanic problem...so whats the mechanics problem? Those same tables end up having bowed and cupped slates too after all the adjustment and adjustment. so what gives????


This is a really stumping question for me and really do appreciate everyones input.

G.G.

sorry on my ph didn't catch the whole thing but many times a table may be setup and level but the mech doesn't put any flat stock or shim stock between the slate and the frame boards. SO, its fine to begin with but then time does its magic and things start to sag. The thicker the slate is the more it will hold its dimension trueness and thats another reason why billiard tables have such thick slate. Its not easy to correct problems with 2 inch or more slate as compared to bending one inch slate

BUt none the less now that I think about it a bit further I did a 6 x 12 snooker table one time that had 1.5 inch slate that was comepletely bowed with a valley on all 5 slates. Most snooker tables are not attached to the frame but simple rest on top of it as they weigh so much. I had to drill both sides so that I could lift and bend back the valley on the whole table. So even thicvker slate will fail if it doesn't have support, of course the length of the slate on a snooker table is much longer and adds to the equation.

 

[Bigjohn]

You have a background in concrete and constuction and you didn't know that foundations or slabs move:frown:... That's what keeps people like Olshan and Ram Jack in business.

 

[OTLB]

Plus tables that are set up the same day and not allowed to sit and acclamate to their new environment will change also. About 85% of the tables I do, I set up to the frame and go back about a week later to complete. Especially when placed on carpet and even more so in the winter as I usuallly load up from a cold storage area and the slate takes a long time to warm up as well as the wood. Its a good practice IMO and since I am in the area all the time I can easily gang the jobs together. I don't know too many guys who do this, actually I don't personally know any. In fact I am going to do 2 tomorrow that I left since last weekend. It also makes good use of a helper as you don't need them on the return trip or your moving vehicle.. I use a service vehicle for work that are not move related. Customers also love my service XB"S.

When your customers hear that you do this they appreciate it. This way I know its the best it can be.

 

[greyghost]

You have a background in concrete and constuction and you didn't know that foundations or slabs move:frown:... That's what keeps people like Olshan and Ram Jack in business.

Like someone said above most foundations are not compacted correctly, it just not thinking that obvious fact...the company i worked for was pretty specific how they laid foundations...base compaction, soil cements they would meter compaction etc...just was in that fram of mind and not thinking of error. That and we dont have nearly the extremes in climate like other regions, 50 in the winter and 100 in the summer, its not bad.

G.G.

 

[greyghost]

sorry on my ph didn't catch the whole thing but many times a table may be setup and level but the mech doesn't put any flat stock or shim stock between the slate and the frame boards. SO, its fine to begin with but then time does its magic and things start to sag. The thicker the slate is the more it will hold its dimension trueness and thats another reason why billiard tables have such thick slate. Its not easy to correct problems with 2 inch or more slate as compared to bending one inch slate

BUt none the less now that I think about it a bit further I did a 6 x 12 snooker table one time that had 1.5 inch slate that was comepletely bowed with a valley on all 5 slates. Most snooker tables are not attached to the frame but simple rest on top of it as they weigh so much. I had to drill both sides so that I could lift and bend back the valley on the whole table. So even thicvker slate will fail if it doesn't have support, of course the length of the slate on a snooker table is much longer and adds to the equation.

that is what i was talking about...now that i think about it alot of the tables that I've looked under had no visible shims...so your saying it was the slate actually conformed to the unlevel frame....the thick slate holding for a while makes sense too:thumbup: that makes perfect sense

 

[Donny Wessels]

Thanks for the info. I'm not too worried about climate change related level problems, as I live in Southern California.

And I will ask Donny about it. He's doing my set-up. :thumbup:

Mitchel, I never get called back for relevels. It won't be a problem especially since your table has been in this climate for several weeks. I also guarantee the level for one year even if there's an earthquake. I don't know about other parts of the country, but in So CA this isn't a problem.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Mitchel, I never get called back for relevels. It won't be a problem especially since your table has been in this climate for several weeks. I also guarantee the level for one year even if there's an earthquake. I don't know about other parts of the country, but in So CA this isn't a problem.

Yeah, it didn't sound like it would be an issue. I grew up in Chicago and I know what temperature change and rainfall is all about.

In regards to an earthquake, the table may stay level but the problem is that it is now in my neighbor's house.

What I am curious about is living by the beach. It's not as humid here, as say Miami, but what exactly is the affect of humidity on a table? Is it more in just how fast or slow it plays?

 

[greyghost]

Yeah, it didn't sound like it would be an issue. I grew up in Chicago and I know what temperature change and rainfall is all about.

In regards to an earthquake, the table may stay level but the problem is that it is now in my neighbor's house.

What I am curious about is living by the beach. It's not as humid here, as say Miami, but what exactly is the affect of humidity on a table? Is it more in just how fast or slow it plays?

The table will play a little slower for sure, it also plays a little longer but at the same time you can do a little more with whitey since you got increased friction. That drag draw shot works wonderfully when its humid and stun shots fall into place nice too.