Why do cues made by the same Cue Maker have such different hits !!!

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
For a long time I have wondered why cues identical in appearance and in construction sometimes have totally different hits and over all balance. I have tried to figure out why this happens and I think it comes down to many factors, such as, the individual piece of wood used for the shaft, the forearm and the handle / butt. I also think that the forearm splice itself has something to do with it along with the cues assembly.When it comes to the wood used in construction, many factors will apply, type of wood, the density of the wood used, and certainly the age of the wood used. I think most cue builders know that tightness of grain in most cases will also increase density and weight. So to say that Maple is Maple and Ebony is just Ebony, is very inaccurate without understanding how slow growth over many years will create denser wood than wood that grown at a faster rate. I also think this is where age, growing conditions, and climate play a major role in the density, weight, strength, and harmonic resonance of woods used in cue building.

In the addition to the above, I have come to the conclusion that when all the parts are assembled sometimes there may be internal differences in how they go together. When I first started trying to learn how to build cues, my main source of information was gained from broken cues, and not all of these cues had broken do to abuse, some broke because internal structural defects which I still associate with the designs certain cue makers use. I learned early that it is of the utmost importance that screws used internally must be bottomed out with no gaps on either end. That the joint pin also must be fully seated, and that the bored and threaded portion of the shaft must not exceed the length of the pin by more than a few thousands. I also learned that shaft inserts must also be snug to the bottom of the bored section for them. I think that tightness of fit in these areas will have a great effect on how a cue feels once assembled.

Since hit is measured by the harmonic vibrations felt in the players hand after cue ball contact, I also think that a cues finish and sealer may have some effect on the way a cue feels, but I am uncertain if these applies.

Over all I would appreciate the opinions of others on this subject, I think these factors are all important and I am certain that I have missed other factor's

Thanks in advance!!!!!!!
 
Shoot Craig I've had shafts, brought at the same time, same tip, same ferrule, same type of joint, same taper have very different hits.

Its wood, wood is never the same even if cut from the same board.
 
Wood is wood.
Biggest part of the difference a lot of times is the handle wood.
It is the biggest portion of the butt.
 
different hits

In real estate it is location,location,location. In cue building I would think it is wood,wood, wood.No two pieces are ever totally the same. Also I think the human error has a bearing also. If a cuemaker builds 100 cues over a period of time you could assume 90 to turn out perfect with a beautifull hit. Maybe 10 per cent just didnt get there. Still good but not as good as other 90. Did refrigeration work for over 30 years. Every thing does not always yurn out perfect. If I got 90 per cent perfect, thats good. The other 10 per cent worked good but not always as I would have hoped for. Just my 2 cents worth. Player not builder.
 
In the gun world the same problem exists.
Identical rifles made by the same machines but some will give consistently tight grouping and others wont shoot worth a hoot no matter what you do.
 
WilleeCue said:
In the gun world the same problem exists.
Identical rifles made by the same machines but some will give consistently tight grouping and others wont shoot worth a hoot no matter what you do.
Not from Sig Sauer.:) They come with target sheets from Germany.

In cues, it's bad tone woods if not for bad construction.
That is one advantage of coring with straight grain maple. You can tone them and get to closest tones as possible from cue to cue.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Not from Sig Sauer.:) They come with target sheets from Germany.

Those are the guns they approve and ship. How many were discarded because they were not up to their standards?
 
i think the forearm wood makes the cues hit differently most and the handle comes second.i kind of like being able to make different hitting cues.you can make soft,hard,med,crisp,etc basically whatever you want by wood selection.sometimes you will misss what you are trying to acheive b.c like Manwon said some woods in the same species are going to be different density and grain and actually feel different,but usually you know what you are going to get before assembly.
 
Why do cues made by the same Cue Maker

lenoxmjs said:
I've found tip choice can make or break weather I like a cue or not.

Can't agree more. Basic physics should tell us that something 1/2 inch thick(shaft) should vibrate more than some thing 1.2 inches thick. I do disagree with Manwon's feelings that screws must bottom out. Screws or bolts are there to hold faces together. Not to control compression. The weight of the screw may affect vibration, just do to it's mass. A great scientific test would be for someone to make a handle that you could vibrate at different frequencies, and then see how much difference it would take before the average player would notice it. Steve still thinks sound is more important than vibration. Try playing with really good ear plugs once.
 
I've found tip choice can make or break weather I like a cue or not.


very true.i think tip and ferrule has by far the most affect on hit,but assuming that the cuemaker is using the same tip and ferrule then i would go with the forearm.
 
cutter said:
I do disagree with Manwon's feelings that screws must bottom out. Screws or bolts are there to hold faces together.

I agree with you. But I also agree with Craig - Manwon, comments.

It also depend on who is building the cue. Poorly constructed cue with screws and bolt do sound dull.
 
icem3n said:
I agree with you. But I also agree with Craig - Manwon, comments.

It also depend on who is building the cue. Poorly constructed cue with screws and bolt do sound dull.
To tap the hole for screws, they have to be deeper than the length of the screw. Heck, UniLoc radial's instruction recommends going half an inch past the bottom of the screw.:eek:
That hole can easily be refilled with wood after tapping though. Just turn .300 ( need some glue room to the sides ) by close .500 long maple and drop it there ( epoxied ).
 
I personally think that a cue can not sound good if it doesn't also have a great feel to it. No single part of a cue is solely responsible for a cues sound or a cues hit, in my opinion.

When the cue ball is struck by the cues tip vibration ( Cues Hit) begins moving down the entire length of the cue. At the same time the cues harmonics (Cues Sound) registers as the audio portion of the experience of the hit that we hear. The harmonics is direct result of the vibration we feel when the cue ball is struck by the tip. To prove my point, take any cue you like the hit of and loosen the weight bolt and hit a cue ball with the cue. Not only will this change the Hit of the cue, but it will also change the harmonics that you will hear. Both a cues hit and harmonics are directly tied to the vibration that occurs throughout the entire cue when the tip hits a cue ball.

Now what most people do not realize is that this effect created by the vibration is not limited to only a single direction. When contact is made with the cue ball the vibration moves from the cues tip to the cues butt, and then reverses and travels back to the cues tip. Now this happens almost instantaneously so people do not actually feel it happen in the manner outlined above. However, this action is what we feel when we shoot a shot on a pool table. When all components are tightly assembled the vibration and harmonics of contact during a shot will be crisp and solid both in sound and feel. Again, I refer you to the above test where I said to loosen a cues weight bolt and check out the changes in your opinion of the cue.

When I say components must be tightly assembled, this includes not having slop at any of the cues points of connection, such as, the Joint, A-joint, Handle, and the cues butt. In my opinion empty pockets within a cue that are not completely filled with epoxy or where Pins or Screws have not been bottomed out will effect all of the above. In addition pins and screws will also be effected by vibration during shots, and if they are not bottomed out this vibration could cause a failure or Buzz at that location in time.

As, I have stated above this is just my opinion, however, everything stated can be tested and is certainly a fact that has been proves.

Thanks for everyones opinion!!

Take Care!!
 
cue hit

One factor that many do not consider are "shakes" in the wood. They are stress cracks, and in some cases voids, that are unseen from the outside. Occasionally, cue makers may cut through one when tapering or trimming wood. Many cue makers will get out the CA glue and try to fill the surface crack and continue building the cue without ever knowing the extent of the defect. Shakes can be caused by extreme physical stress to the tree during it's lifetime. Intense storm wind damage can crack wood grains without snapping the tree in two. The tree may not repair the damage but grow a callous around the affected area and go on living.

One way to determine if they are present within a piece of wood is with acoustic testing. One measures the vibration frequencies along the length of the wood with an electrical acoustic pickup and an oscilloscope after causing a vibration to occur. Vibrational discontinuities along the length of the wood map out the air voids present. I have been using this technique and discard upwards of 15% of the woods I purchase. Only the sections of wood providing uniform vibration patterns will be retained. The internal voids/ cracks cannot be seen but they interrupt the efficient transmission of vibrational frequencies (feedback) at the discontinuities. This affects both compression frequencies and lateral vibration also. Sometime these discontinuities produce the infamous "Buzz" many cue makers experience. Many cues have become firewood because the source of the Buzz could not be determined.

Just another way two cues built the same way by the same maker may hit differently.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:
 
So what materials or techniques do you guys use, if you want the cue to hit hard or crisp?

ATTN: Masonh
 
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TripXQ said:
One way to determine if they are present within a piece of wood is with acoustic testing. One measures the vibration frequencies along the length of the wood with an electrical acoustic pickup and an oscilloscope after causing a vibration to occur. Vibrational discontinuities along the length of the wood map out the air voids present.

Cool. Can you do this on a cue to check for air pocket?
 
ace911 said:
So what materials or techniques do you guys use, if you want the cue to hit hard or crisp?

ATTN: Masonh

I think they used splicing, coring, taper,wood selection and material used.(Im not MAson)
 
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