Why do I naturally pocket balls better with outside spin?

[Renderu]

When I pocket balls, I tend to use outside spin. It just feels easier to make the ball this way. I’ve read about the “touch of outside/inside” idea, but I don’t think that’s what’s happening in my case.

My take is that I’m always aiming at the ghost ball position, and instead of overcutting to compensate for cut-induced throw, my natural instinct is to apply spin.

Could it be that I’m unconsciously using spin as my way of managing CIT rather than adjusting my aim point? And could this be part of the reason so many players use spin on shots that don’t really require it for position?

 

[gregcantrall]

In general outside spin gives the most natural contact between balls. The friction factor can be huge in tavern barbox play. So good on ya.
You should in practice experiment with speed and spin. In competition go with what you know.

 

[straightline]

It's such a good fix for CIT, it's been standard practice for a century at least. You still need to be able to do the whole range of ball without sacrificing accuracy. Lots of technical and self discovery there.

 

[7stud]

My take is that I’m always aiming at the ghost ball position, and instead of overcutting to compensate for cut-induced throw, my natural instinct is to apply spin.

If you are aiming at the ghost ball position, then you are not hitting the ghost ball position when using english because the cue ball will deflect away from the line of aim.

Could it be that I’m unconsciously using spin as my way of managing CIT rather than adjusting my aim point?

Do you know what percentage of maximum side spin (= 1/2 the radius) you need for each cut angle to get the gearing english needed to fully offset CIT? How do you compensate for the different deflections caused by hitting off center with different cue ball speeds and different distances to the object ball?

 

[Jimmorrison]

Conditions, balls are not cleaned and polished, have to or they don’t go.

 

[David in FL]

There's a reason that we often refer to it as "helping" English...

 

[straightline]

My take is if you centralize on CPG all the various OB deviations can be cancelled with an offset cut angle.

Warning carpenter analogy follows:
Carpenter needs an angle, he sets the table for it. If he needs another angle, he doesn't fudge manually. He sets the new angle.

 

[skor]

Because it eliminates throw

 

[Poolplaya9]

When I pocket balls, I tend to use outside spin. It just feels easier to make the ball this way. I’ve read about the “touch of outside/inside” idea, but I don’t think that’s what’s happening in my case.

My take is that I’m always aiming at the ghost ball position, and instead of overcutting to compensate for cut-induced throw, my natural instinct is to apply spin.

Could it be that I’m unconsciously using spin as my way of managing CIT rather than adjusting my aim point?

Yes, that is exactly what you are doing, and all good players utilize this effect at least some of the time when positional needs allow for it and circumstances make it the right choice. The right amount of outside english on the cue ball (not too much or too little) will have a "gearing" effect that exactly cancels out CIT so that you do not have to adjust your aim from the ghost ball. The greater the cut angle, the more outside spin that will be required to cancel out the CIT.

And could this be part of the reason so many players use spin on shots that don’t really require it for position?

Yes. Some of them may not consciously fully understand why they do it though, but their subconscious noticed the benefits in various circumstances and incorporated it into their game for them. Having a conscious awareness and understanding of effects like these usually allow for your subconscious to better be able to utilize them though, and even more so as you are developing experience.

Be aware that with outside english you are also having to deal with squirt and swerve (but maybe or maybe not CIT or even SIT depending on if you put the proper amount of english to get perfect gearing or not), and that when using no english you don't have the squirt and swerve to worry about.

When position requirements allow for the use of english or no english, there is some nuance to and debate on when, and for whom, and under what specific situations and circumstances it is better to use english to try to eliminate the CIT on a shot and judge for the squirt/throw, or use no english and just judge for the CIT, with the answer being that both are better at different times depending on the exact circumstance and person which Dr. Dave goes into on his site somewhere.

 

[jay helfert]

When I pocket balls, I tend to use outside spin. It just feels easier to make the ball this way. I’ve read about the “touch of outside/inside” idea, but I don’t think that’s what’s happening in my case.

My take is that I’m always aiming at the ghost ball position, and instead of overcutting to compensate for cut-induced throw, my natural instinct is to apply spin.

Could it be that I’m unconsciously using spin as my way of managing CIT rather than adjusting my aim point? And could this be part of the reason so many players use spin on shots that don’t really require it for position?

You're throwing the ball toward the hole by applying english on the object ball that makes it turn over toward the pocket. Outside english is commonly used on long extreme cut shots. Better cue ball control as well.

 

[7stud]

The exact amount of english required to get the gearing effect that cancels CIT varies for every shot based on a number of factors. Basically the more CIT the shot will have, the more english will be required to get to that full gearing effect. On very, very thin cuts, or on almost full ball hits, where there is little CIT, it takes just the very tiniest amount of english to get the gearing effect.

Dr. Dave has a simple equation for determining the gearing english as a percentage of the maximum possible side spin (= 1/2 the radius):

80% of 1 - the fractional hit

For a 1/2 ball hit that gives gearing english of:

0.80 x (1 - 0.5) = 0.8 x 0.5 = 0.4 => 40 % of maximum side spin

For a 1/8 ball hit that gives gearing english of:

0.80 x (1 - 1/8) = 0.80 x 7/8 = 0.80 x .875 = 0.7 => 70% of maximum side spin

You can see that gearing english for a 1/8 ball hit is much higher than for a 1/2 ball hit. Dr. Dave wrote an article about a "40% Rule" for determining the amount of gearing english required for any cut angle. In his article explaining the 40% Rule, he says:

Fortunately, the 40% rule works for every cut angle. For a small cut angle (a fairly full
hit), the required amount of english will be small; and for a large cut angle (a fairly thin cut), the required amount
of english will be large.

In other words, the gearing english increases as the cut angle increases. Here is a graph of gearing english as a percentage of maximum side spin (y-axis) v. cut angle (x-axis):

All of the above is from: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/

 

[maha]

must use it for dirty balls and possible throw. as many pool rooms have dirty balls or chalk on the balls. and if you hit a chalk spot you get the max throw from that spot.
plus you get to hit the object ball more full so its easier to aim. on cut shots of all kinds.

also more often than not when cutting near rails you tend to use outside for position, so you dont go straight across.
and most are lousy at inside for some reason.

 

[Zerksies]

Start pocketing balls with low inside

 

[Poolplaya9]

Dr. Dave has a simple equation for determining the gearing english as a percentage of the maximum possible side spin (= 1/2 the radius):



For a 1/2 ball hit that gives gearing english of:

0.80 x (1 - 0.5) = 0.8 x 0.5 = 0.4 => 40 % of maximum side spin

For a 1/8 ball hit that gives gearing english of:

0.80 x (1 - 1/8) = 0.80 x 7/8 = 0.80 x .875 = 0.7 => 70% of maximum side spin

You can see that gearing english for a 1/8 ball hit is much higher than for a 1/2 ball hit. Dr. Dave wrote an article about a "40% Rule" for determining the amount of gearing english required for any cut angle. In his article explaining the 40% Rule, he says:



In other words, the gearing english increases as the cut angle increases. Here is a graph of gearing english as a percentage of maximum side spin (y-axis) v. cut angle (x-axis):

View attachment 854528
View attachment 854527

All of the above is from: https://drdavepoolinfo.com/faq/sidespin/outside-gearing/

In my tiredness/haste without properly thinking it out I correlated it to the amount of CIT rather than to the fairly obvious relative surface speeds between the balls. Thanks for the correction, I edited my post.

 

[Renderu]

Start pocketing balls with low inside

Why?

 

[VarmintKong]

Why?

Cuz a one-trick pony is a pretty sad horse.

 

[dr_dave]

Yes, that is exactly what you are doing, and all good players utilize this effect at least some of the time when positional needs allow for it and circumstances make it the right choice. The right amount of outside english on the cue ball (not too much or too little) will have a "gearing" effect that exactly cancels out CIT so that you do not have to adjust your aim from the ghost ball. The greater the cut angle, the more outside spin that will be required to cancel out the CIT.

Yes. Some of them may not consciously fully understand why they do it though, but their subconscious noticed the benefits in various circumstances and incorporated it into their game for them. Having a conscious awareness and understanding of effects like these usually allow for your subconscious to better be able to utilize them though, and even more so as you are developing experience.

Be aware that with outside english you are also having to deal with squirt and swerve (but maybe or maybe not CIT or even SIT depending on if you put the proper amount of english to get perfect gearing or not), and that when using no english you don't have the squirt and swerve to worry about.

When position requirements allow for the use of english or no english, there is some nuance to and debate on when, and for whom, and under what specific situations and circumstances it is better to use english to try to eliminate the CIT on a shot and judge for the squirt/throw, or use no english and just judge for the CIT, with the answer being that both are better at different times depending on the exact circumstance and person which Dr. Dave goes into on his site somewhere.

For those interested, this topic is covered in detail here:

how and when to use outside spin (and how much)
​

For some people, an argument also can be made to instead use inside spin on every shot. For the reasons, see:

advantages of using inside spin​

Enjoy!

 

[Texas Carom Club]

i sort of discovered this by accident some years back
make alot more balls is all i can say, dont care about the why either

 

[Monti]

You're throwing the ball toward the hole by applying english on the object ball that makes it turn over toward the pocket. Outside english is commonly used on long extreme cut shots. Better cue ball control as well.

I find thatlLong extreme cut shots I should be straight ball as it’s so hard to judge the amount the ball will deflect over that long distance and if it needs to be a really extreme cut then you risk missing it altogether?

 

[Renderu]

If you are aiming at the ghost ball position, then you are not hitting the ghost ball position when using english because the cue ball will deflect away from the line of aim.

Do you know what percentage of maximum side spin (= 1/2 the radius) you need for each cut angle to get the gearing english needed to fully offset CIT? How do you compensate for the different deflections caused by hitting off center with different cue ball speeds and different distances to the object ball?

I compensate automatically for deflection on my way down on the shot. I don't use any method like BHE, for me it's easier to do it naturally. So with or without spin, I am concentrating on the same spot/line on the object ball.