Why Do Non-Users Care?

[ps611846]

Thats funny cause I use contact point and it NEVER changes EVER!!! No matter how hard or soft or medium I hit the ball.
I'm talking all pockets too, large or small - 10' table with 4 1/8 to 4 1/4 pockets - IT NEVER CHANGES
Jason

How do people come up with this crap?

LOL !!!!!

Man, your subconscious adjustments are very strong !!!!!!

Do you know anything about PHYSICS ??????????

Ever thought about how speed and duration of cb-ob contact can chage the angle of the cut dramatically ??????

You just don't know what you are doing. And I am the one who comes up with crap ???

 

[LAMas]

LOL !!!!!

Man, your subconscious adjustments are very strong !!!!!!

Do you know anything about PHYSICS ??????????

Ever thought about how speed and duration of cb-ob contact can chage the angle of the cut dramatically ??????

You just don't know what you are doing. And I am the one who comes up with crap ???

Yup, cut induced throw CIT will alter the geometrically correct angle (thinner) and must be compensated for with a different contact point a bit to the outside with a center CB hit.

 

[ps611846]

Yup, cut induced throw CIT will alter the geometrically correct angle (thinner) and must be compensated for with a different contact point a bit to the outside with a center CB hit.

Of cource !!!!!

People adjust subconsciously and they are not aware.

And then they come up with nonsense like: "the contact point is always the same" !!!!

Yeah, we got some new laws of physics !!!!!

God, it is so simple to understand. It's common sense.

 

[Straightpool_99]

Thats funny cause I use contact point and it NEVER changes EVER!!! No matter how hard or soft or medium I hit the ball.
I'm talking all pockets too, large or small - 10' table with 4 1/8 to 4 1/4 pockets - IT NEVER CHANGES
Jason

How do people come up with this crap?

Sorry, man but you are subconsciously adjusting (like everybody else). If you played the way you claim, you'd shoot most of the slow or hard medium to large angle cut shots (depending on your chosen contact point) into the rail. It's physics. For very small cut angles, you can do as you say, but as the cut angle increases, so does the difference between the contact points.

I really don't see why this point is so hard to understand.

I guess many people are swooping, applying english and of course subconsciously compensating, because even people who are completely unaware of the physics can pocket balls. The fact that someone can pocket balls does not make them knowledgeable about pool physics, or indeed aim, in all cases. That is why we get people like Mike Sigel claiming that throw does not exist! Even the simplest of experiments (freezing 3 balls together and aiming at the ghost ball on a fourth, shooting at different speeds) will show you why so many aiming system claims are completely bogus. But I guess everyone is just too busy for this? That's ok though, you can still claim you aim the same way for all speeds, because ignoring physics makes everything so much easier. That way you can claim whatever you want.

 

[lfigueroa]

Yup, cut induced throw CIT will alter the geometrically correct angle (thinner) and must be compensated for with a different contact point a bit to the outside with a center CB hit.

Yup.

There is also the issue of the particular balls in play. If you are playing with the Cyclop balls -- DCC anyone -- you will have to compensate, consciously or unconsciously, for different CIT on cut shots, caroms, and combination shots.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Straightpool_99]

I use mostly ghostball/c2cp aiming. I think the biggest thing I ever did was to completely let go of "the pocket" as anything more than a reference point. Unless I'm slamming things in with vertical center ball, I'm not aiming at the pocket at all, and if I am aiming inside the pocket, it's at a very specific part of it.

I think playing real runout pool, you must sometimes forget what is easy and convenient (for that particular shot)and shoot the shots the way they need to be shot (to get the angle you need to complete the runout, not just get a shot). That may mean with english or at an off speed. Which means I'm not shooting at the pocket at all, but at some part of the rail, usually, unless I'm englishing the ball in. I rarely do that. I have worked a lot on backhand english, but for all intents and purposes, I think paralell english works pretty well, and I can hit every shot the same (with straight cueing). I just can't use the cues with the absolute highest deflection. Normal deflection works fine.

When I hear people saying they use almost only vertical center and the same aim for every shot speed, I wonder if they are even playing the same game as I am. I couldn't make 3 balls in a row that way. Pool is tough enough as it is. I have no need of making the shots longer and tougher than they need to be. I want good angles and close shots as much as I'm able to get them. And I don't particularly like slamming balls in any harder than I need to. My stroke works best in the slower speed spectrum and I'm doing pretty well with that, all things considered. I reserve the TOI power game for the slow tables that don't play right, anyway. For good conditions I don't use it so much.

The fact that I'm consciously aware of where I need to aim, means that I'm ready to shoot, even if I'm cold, getting out of my chair. I usually start my games pretty strong, but wether I maintain that is a matter of how I'm feeling that day. Being able to hit the pocket cleanly when cold, to me is a great advantage. If I could play 12 hours every day, then I might be able to let my subconcious take over, but since I have to work etc. it takes me time to get into stroke every time I have the chance to play, at least the aim is taken care of.

 

[jasonlaus]

I will continue to disagree. Many times I've changed my mind after being down on the shot already and the only thing changing was the speed or english not the contact point.


Keep doing the math while I keep running out
Jason

 

[jasonlaus]

Maybe I am and don't know it. I will try to pay attention next time. I would say maybe on some of the thinner cut shots - I try ro avoid them, probably for that reason lol
Jason

 

[jasonlaus]

I use mostly ghostball/c2cp aiming. I think the biggest thing I ever did was to completely let go of "the pocket" as anything more than a reference point. Unless I'm slamming things in with vertical center ball, I'm not aiming at the pocket at all, and if I am aiming inside the pocket, it's at a very specific part of it.

I think playing real runout pool, you must sometimes forget what is easy and convenient (for that particular shot)and shoot the shots the way they need to be shot (to get the angle you need to complete the runout, not just get a shot). That may mean with english or at an off speed. Which means I'm not shooting at the pocket at all, but at some part of the rail, usually, unless I'm englishing the ball in. I rarely do that. I have worked a lot on backhand english, but for all intents and purposes, I think paralell english works pretty well, and I can hit every shot the same (with straight cueing). I just can't use the cues with the absolute highest deflection. Normal deflection works fine.

When I hear people saying they use almost only vertical center and the same aim for every shot speed, I wonder if they are even playing the same game as I am. I couldn't make 3 balls in a row that way. Pool is tough enough as it is. I have no need of making the shots longer and tougher than they need to be. I want good angles and close shots as much as I'm able to get them. And I don't particularly like slamming balls in any harder than I need to. My stroke works best in the slower speed spectrum and I'm doing pretty well with that, all things considered. I reserve the TOI power game for the slow tables that don't play right, anyway. For good conditions I don't use it so much.

The fact that I'm consciously aware of where I need to aim, means that I'm ready to shoot, even if I'm cold, getting out of my chair. I usually start my games pretty strong, but wether I maintain that is a matter of how I'm feeling that day. Being able to hit the pocket cleanly when cold, to me is a great advantage. If I could play 12 hours every day, then I might be able to let my subconcious take over, but since I have to work etc. it takes me time to get into stroke every time I have the chance to play, at least the aim is taken care of.

I use ALL the CB and I'm pretty sure I use the same contact point for almost all shots - I'm not a fan of thin cuts into the side but the corners don't bother me.

I have run 7 racks in a row 3 different times 2×9' 1×7' so I'm not helpless.

Still, all the shots look the same to me no matter the speed.
Jason

 

[Banks]

For much the same reason some folks care what Kevin Trudeau published.

 

[Pathetic Shark]

Can you give us the Reader's Digest version? Just a quick recap?

Lou Figueroa

Yeah, who's winning?

 

[ps611846]

I use ALL the CB and I'm pretty sure I use the same contact point for almost all shots - I'm not a fan of thin cuts into the side but the corners don't bother me.

I have run 7 racks in a row 3 different times 2×9' 1×7' so I'm not helpless.

Still, all the shots look the same to me no matter the speed.
Jason

Doesn't prove anything.

I never said you can't run 7 racks or play with me and beat me.

But I am 100% sure that what you say about the contact point is 100% wrong.

If you become aware of your stance, bridge, head position, movement of your stroking arm, you will notice the adjustments you make. It could only be a very small shift of your bridge hand. Or a very small swoop in your stroke. Or a small shift of your head - eyes. Very small movements.

I still think you are not aware of your adjustments. But it doesn't matter if you are able to run 7 racks in a row.

 

[jasonlaus]

Doesn't prove anything.

I never said you can't run 7 racks or play with me and beat me.

But I am 100% sure that what you say about the contact point is 100% wrong.

If you become aware of your stance, bridge, head position, movement of your stroking arm, you will notice the adjustments you make. It could only be a very small shift of your bridge hand. Or a very small swoop in your stroke. Or a small shift of your head - eyes. Very small movements.

I still think you are not aware of your adjustments. But it doesn't matter if you are able to run 7 racks in a row.

I played yesterday with fairly dirty POOL balls and a slower cueball pushed the OB quite a bit in some cases.
Not sure I could even adjust for that. 3, 4, 5 inches in some cases - it was bad. Having a ball polisher at home you don't see it that much and I always aim center pocket, so when it does "push" the OB I probably dont notice cause it still goes in the hole
Jason

 

[JB Cases]

I have been moving forward with my work on CTE since about 2005. What I leave behind will be my life's work and contribution to pool all possible because of Hal Houle. I apologize to you and everyone for not perfectly wrapping my mind around Houle's work from day 1.
There have been hundreds if not thousands that have ventured into Houle's material only to come away scratching their heads.
I am okay with being called a scammer, a huskster, CULT leader, and so much more and if you want to question my integrity as a man then so be it....I hope it makes you and others feel better.

Stan Shuffett

You have nothing to apologize for. Hal gave all of us who were fortunate to spend time with him something that improved our games.

I have come to understand that aiming is far deeper than most understand it to be. What Hal discovered in this regard and the many ways he figured out how to "hack" perception is genius. It's truly a many roads to Rome type of thing.

That you have taken this and run with it so passionately is an amazing gift to the pool world. One that has been knocked and mocked but is nonetheless truly valuable. In time you will leave us as Hal did and as we all must go. But what remains will be your work and by extension Hal's foundation. The current critics who spend so much time trolling will be gone and forgotten and their collective body of criticism long vanished in the face of future generations of players who build a solid game based on your work and the work of others who also pursue objective aiming methods based on Hal's instruction and subsequent exploration of the topic.

 

[mohrt]

You have nothing to apologize for. Hal gave all of us who were fortunate to spend time with him something that improved our games.

I have come to understand that aiming is far deeper than most understand it to be. What Hal discovered in this regard and the many ways he figured out how to "hack" perception is genius. It's truly a many roads to Rome type of thing.

That you have taken this and run with it so passionately is an amazing gift to the pool world. One that has been knocked and mocked but is nonetheless truly valuable. In time you will leave us as Hal did and as we all must go. But what remains will be your work and by extension Hal's foundation. The current critics who spend so much time trolling will be gone and forgotten and their collective body of criticism long vanished in the face of future generations of players who build a solid game based on your work and the work of others who also pursue objective aiming methods based on Hal's instruction and subsequent exploration of the topic.

The biggest hangup with CTE is has always been the language. Those that have taken the time (or have the ability, however you want to put it) to figure out how to make CTE work know that it truly does work. That said, there has never been a complete set of language that works for everyone that basically gives you step 1,2,3 and pocket a ball. However, I am confident those days are numbered. Stan figured it out and put it all into words. This will be exposed in his new book. The book will have the language, along with a huge treasure of history, information and training for CTE and pool playing in general. I know that sounds like an infomercial for his book, but it is true. CTE has been a journey for Stan. As he put out DVD1, DVD2, he has grown and strengthened his understanding in CTE, and he has put out the knowledge he has accumulated all along the way. As you may tell, I'm pretty excited about the book

[edit] and for those skeptical that this is some ploy to buy his book, Stan is also exposing the steps to the system online in conjunction with the book release. So anyone will be able to make the system work for themselves before deciding on a book purchase, if they so choose. The book will be a roadmap for taking CTE to its highest levels, all the gritty details and shot situations, and the training to make it happen.

[edit2] I'm reposting this comment as a new thread so it doesn't go unnoticed buried in here.

 

[lakeman77]

It's so weird, I can think of a dozen systems off the top of my head. Nobody goes nuts. Mention CTE, BINGO!. We all have different brains, eyesight etc. If it's doesn't work for you, why get worked up?, just move on to something that you feel good about.
We aren't shooting rifles with scopes here, pool is more like making baskets, hitting a golf ball. It's subjective, involves perception. Stan has done a wonderful thing for the pool community, thank you Stan.

 

[duckie]

The reason I care is three fold.....

1. It is of limited use, so why learn it. Whenever CTE shots are discussed, they are all about pocketing a object ball that contacted directly by the cue ball. Never anything about going rail first or kicking at a ball.

Pool games are about ball placement......putting the OB and CB where you want. This includes safeties where the goal of the shot is to hide balls in order not to leave your opponent a shot. CTE can not handle safety play.......based on the discussion......i.e. It's a center pocket system, or there's is only three perception need to pocket balls.

2. Way to complicated, requiring a 38 chapter book, DVD, and personal instruction. I mean really.......there are cheaper and better training aids that are more useful.

I don't want to new players or anyone wasting their time on it. The best thing anyone can do is have a practice ethic and plan. It's waste of time to read about aiming in a new dimension......pool is not played in the Twlight Zone or the Outer Limits.

Pool is played in the real world where spheres do not have edges. In the real world, playing conditions are seldom the same, no two table play the same.

3. Provides no means for understanding how to make adjustment to shots therefore you cannot know how you missed. If you missed, it has been stated it was because of mis perception of the shot. But it does not help it knowing how you missed it.

As I stated elsewhere, there are a lot shot instructors here, but very few, if any real instructors on pool playing. Curtain shots have nothing to do with playing pool. They are nothing more than practiced trick shots. Try doing a safety shot using curtains.

A real instructor of pool playing understands the variety of playing conditions, type of shots, and shooting positions that will be encountered during real game play over a long period of time.......years.

Example........bridge placement........most state it needs to be xxx distance from CB ...........one of my favorite 14.1 safety play is to bury the CB in the middle of a full rack that is just slightly opened up. Kinda hard to have a bridge hand on the table where there is no place to put your bridge hand down.

I practice a three rail into a side pocket shot. Surprises people when they see it.

Care to discuss the in terms of CTE how to aim this shot? Sure seems the pocket matters now. Which of only three needed perceptions needed for a shot is used to send the OB three rails?

 

[mohrt]

I practice a three rail into a side pocket shot. Surprises people when they see it.

Care to discuss the in terms of CTE how to aim this shot? Sure seems the pocket matters now. Which of only three needed perceptions needed for a shot is used to send the OB three rails?

Draw up the shot situation, I'll bet there is a CTE solution to the 3-rail bank to the side pocket. I practice them quite often.

 

[Neil]

The reason I care is three fold.....

1. It is of limited use, so why learn it. Whenever CTE shots are discussed, they are all about pocketing a object ball that contacted directly by the cue ball. Never anything about going rail first or kicking at a ball.

Pool games are about ball placement......putting the OB and CB where you want. This includes safeties where the goal of the shot is to hide balls in order not to leave your opponent a shot. CTE can not handle safety play.......based on the discussion......i.e. It's a center pocket system, or there's is only three perception need to pocket balls.

So you don't like others talking about aiming systems because....wait for it.......they only talk about aiming!

2. Way to complicated, requiring a 38 chapter book, DVD, and personal instruction. I mean really.......there are cheaper and better training aids that are more useful.

I don't want to new players or anyone wasting their time on it. The best thing anyone can do is have a practice ethic and plan. It's waste of time to read about aiming in a new dimension......pool is not played in the Twlight Zone or the Outer Limits.

Pool is played in the real world where spheres do not have edges. In the real world, playing conditions are seldom the same, no two table play the same.

This is what is today called fake news. Make up a bunch of crap and state it as fact. All it really does is show that you don't have a clue what you are even talking about. If you bothered to actually read posts, instead of just skimming them to find something to mock, you would know that not all 38 chapters of the book are about how to use CTE. You would also know that one does not need all three to learn the system, but that there are three options available to learn it.

The fact that you constantly state that pool balls have no edges only showcases the fact that you are only looking to mock. If someone was to ask you to line up your cue with the edge of a ball for a million dollar prize, you would have no problem doing so. Yet you insist on saying it is impossible to do so.

3. Provides no means for understanding how to make adjustment to shots therefore you cannot know how you missed. If you missed, it has been stated it was because of mis perception of the shot. But it does not help it knowing how you missed it.

Way to show you know enough about CTE to even be talking about it.
As I stated elsewhere, there are a lot shot instructors here, but very few, if any real instructors on pool playing. Curtain shots have nothing to do with playing pool. They are nothing more than practiced trick shots. Try doing a safety shot using curtains.
First off, how would you even know that is true or not? You make an assumption because the instructors only talk about aiming when talking about aiming. Again, nothing more than an ignorant statement on your part that only makes you look bad.
A real instructor of pool playing understands the variety of playing conditions, type of shots, and shooting positions that will be encountered during real game play over a long period of time.......years.
No kidding. What does any of that have to do with teaching one aspect of playing? If you ask someone about kicking, do you really want them talking about stroke issues, or banking, or anything else but kicking? In case you haven't noticed it yet, this is called the aiming forum. This is where people talk about aiming.
Example........bridge placement........most state it needs to be xxx distance from CB ...........one of my favorite 14.1 safety play is to bury the CB in the middle of a full rack that is just slightly opened up. Kinda hard to have a bridge hand on the table where there is no place to put your bridge hand down.
Again, what has safety play got to do with aiming a ball to pocket it? Oh that's right, it doesn't. You are just running out of things to mock CTE for, so you threw that nonsense in there.
I practice a three rail into a side pocket shot. Surprises people when they see it.
Yeah, so??
Care to discuss the in terms of CTE how to aim this shot? Sure seems the pocket matters now. Which of only three needed perceptions needed for a shot is used to send the OB three rails?

Again, you are showing you know nothing of CTE. CTE also has one, two, and three rail banks included in it. But, yet, you still found the need to mock that which you know so little about.