Why Do Some Cues Generate More Spin?

Pidge

Pidge

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I've got a small collection of 7 pool cues and around 12 different shafts and I have 32 snooker cues and all the snooker cues generate more spin on the CB. Why would this be? All the snooker cues have an Elkmaster tip, with the exception of 1 which has a Kamui Black SS. All the pool cues have a Kamui Black SS installed.

Its been bugging me for a while and I just can't figure it out. Perhaps its the way I apply english? In both instances I just get down with my tip already placed at the part of the CB I want to strike, but I took notice when doing this recently. With the pool cues its similar to a mix of BHE and FHE, whereas the snooker cues are closer to parallel english. Could this be why?

If anyone could shed some light on why certain cues have the capability to generate more spin I'd be grateful.

Cheers.
 
If the snooker cues have thinner shafts, that could have something to do with it. Have you tried controlled experiments/scenarios trying to use the same stroke on the same shot with different shafts? Is the stroke the same? I used to use an 11.50 mm shaft thinking I was getting lots more spin, but as I developed a better stroke, I found I could get whatever spin I wanted with a variety of shafts...so I don't really know if thinner shafts give more spin or not. Maybe.
 
I've tried controlled experiments...well as close to controlled as I can. I've set a shot out, perfectly straight, 5ft between CB and OB, and using the same tip contact point on the CB (draw) and tried to get the speed of stroke the same. What I found was the snooker cues (all 9.5mm) would draw back .5-2ft more than a pool cue with 11.75-13mm tip. Also the pool cues would make the CB spin back straight away (you know what I mean) and the snooker cues would make the CB stop in the ghost ball spot whilst spinning for like 1-2secs then the spin would take, and the CB would draw back. I found that quite weird.

You can physically see the spin with a measles ball when setting up a straight stop shot using Max english. Using a snooker cue the CB spins much longer on the spot.
 
rayjay said:
If the snooker cues have thinner shafts, that could have something to do with it. Have you tried controlled experiments/scenarios trying to use the same stroke on the same shot with different shafts? Is the stroke the same? I used to use an 11.50 mm shaft thinking I was getting lots more spin, but as I developed a better stroke, I found I could get whatever spin I wanted with a variety of shafts...so I don't really know if thinner shafts give more spin or not. Maybe.
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I use 13.25mm shafts and do everything I could do with a 12 or 12.5mm. It is all in your stroke. The thicker shafts also move around less in your bridge finger. Resale is also a factor, you can't add wood, but you can take it away.
 
I've done a bit of playing around with different shafts and tips to see how much spin you could get.

The lowest was a standard shaft with a regular tip, top was a Predator Z with a layered tip. A good stiff shaft with a layered tip was in between the Predator and regular shaft with a regular tip.

A friend and I shot the same shot several times each to see how far down the rail we could get with the cueball in the middle of the table and the object ball 2 diamonds up from the pocket about an inch away. We'd use low right spin and see how far down table we got. With max spin, we could get the cueball to almost scratch in the opposite corner. The distances varried about 1.5 diamonds from the different shafts and tips we tried.
 
Taper, Tips and Cueing

A true snooker cue should be a perfect conical taper with a fairly small diameter tip.

Assuming all other things being equal (your stroke); the combination of the "strongest" taper, your cueing improvement (smaller tip may allow you to strike further out from the center with more success/accuracy), and softer tips should add up to more active transferred spin on the cue ball ...

:thumbup:
 
Glad you mentioned the taper, because I forgot :) all my snooker cues are made from Ash and have a conical taper with very little "flex" and although some of my pool cues have a conical taper, they do have considerably more flex in the shaft. Is Maple more flexible than Ash? I don't know.

I can't shoot further from center CB with either cue(s). The miscue limit with a snooker cue is extremely unforgiving and I know if I shoot outside of this I will miscue, where as with a pool cue I can get away with it more often.

I'm in the process of getting a cue made that's 10.5mm solid Ash shaft with a very stiff conical taper. I think this may be the future of my game, and can't see my self using a cue with a larger tip ever again. I just hope it doesn't feel like its going to break when I have to slam a ball in.
 
Pidge said:
Glad you mentioned the taper, because I forgot :) all my snooker cues are made from Ash and have a conical taper with very little "flex" and although some of my pool cues have a conical taper, they do have considerably more flex in the shaft. Is Maple more flexible than Ash? I don't know.

I can't shoot further from center CB with either cue(s). The miscue limit with a snooker cue is extremely unforgiving and I know if I shoot outside of this I will miscue, where as with a pool cue I can get away with it more often.

I'm in the process of getting a cue made that's 10.5mm solid Ash shaft with a very stiff conical taper. I think this may be the future of my game, and can't see my self using a cue with a larger tip ever again. I just hope it doesn't feel like its going to break when I have to slam a ball in.
Click to expand...


Yes, typically Ash is a bit stiffer or less flexible than rock maple...
 
hang-the-9 said:
I've done a bit of playing around with different shafts and tips to see how much spin you could get.
The lowest was a standard shaft with a regular tip, top was a Predator Z with a layered tip. A good stiff shaft with a layered tip was in between the Predator and regular shaft with a regular tip.
A friend and I shot the same shot several times each to see how far down the rail we could get with the cueball in the middle of the table and the object ball 2 diamonds up from the pocket about an inch away. We'd use low right spin and see how far down table we got. With max spin, we could get the cueball to almost scratch in the opposite corner. The distances varried about 1.5 diamonds from the different shafts and tips we tried.
Click to expand...


Question, hang. A bit off topic, but not much. I've been considering the Z shaft, but would like to know if common shot making is effected by the smaller diameter? :)
 
DogLoop said:
Yes, typically Ash is a bit stiffer or less flexible than rock maple...
Click to expand...

Only in cues have I heard that. The wood literature usually ascribes a bit more stiffness to rock maple.

Hard maple has been the standard neck wood used by Fender guitar in all their guitars and basses for the last 60 years or so. These instruments can have over 170 pounds of tension on them 24/7, so resistance to bending is really a key factor in wood choice. Hard maple is always more expensive than ash, so I think Fender might have chosen ash for necks if it worked as well because they are cheap SOBs. :cool:
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Only in cues have I heard that. The wood literature usually ascribes a bit more stiffness to rock maple.

Hard maple has been the standard neck wood used by Fender guitar in all their guitars and basses for the last 60 years or so. These instruments can have over 170 pounds of tension on them 24/7, so resistance to bending is really a key factor in wood choice. Hard maple is always more expensive than ash, so I think Fender might have chosen ash for necks if it worked as well because they are cheap SOBs. :cool:
Click to expand...

Interesting. So old guitar necks that are still straight might be a good source of shaft wood.
 
The other popular wood for guitar necks is mahogany. Most acoustic guitars have a mahogany neck because they sound better (same string tension, etc).

I've often wondered why mahogany isn't used in pool cues. It's not as pretty as cocobolo, rosewood, etc., but it's a dream to work with and one of the most durable woods.
 
So I wanted to share a couple of thoughts.

First, tip diameter and spin and English. My personal experience is that with a smaller diameter tip...you end up with more spin on a ball...but less momentum or inertia...cause the ball to spin faster, but not be able to power through balls and such as well. Personally, I am not sold on the idea...I think if you have a good stroke, a conical taper, stiff shaft, and 13 mm tip will get you more English and spin with power and inertia you could ever want. Of course, most people use English and spin for shape...so inertial ight not be as important.

Secondly...woods. Early on I adopted a methodology to cues that tone woods are going to give you the best hits and feels. These woods (rosewood, maple, ebony, etc...) has great resonance and tone...contributing to the band line of vibrations and energy transfer. A couple of quality item ps to feel and sound of a cue. I think that the ability to provide stiffness yet flexibility, like maple, makes it a good choice for cues...as the give helps with mis hits, but also with feel...no one wants to shoot with a piece of rebar.
 
The most action generating cue ever built is the one Efren first used when he came to the States as Ceaser Morales. That cue could spin the ball better than any other pro's cue. If you can find that cue, and have it copied exactly, you will have a gold mine.

Food for thought...
 
I'm not so sure you get more spin with a smaller diameter shaft. I believe what happens is you actually hit lower or further outside with a smaller diameter shaft which is what generates the increased spin. The actual difference in the area that contacts the CB, when comparing a 9 mm and 13 mm shaft, is infinitesimal. If there is a difference, it seems it would have to be related to shaft stiffness or mass. I've played a lot with 13 mm "monster" shafts from custom cue makers weighing 4.2 to 4.5 ounces and now play with an OB2. I have a Z2 as well that fits the same cue. I can't see any significant difference in spin between any of those shafts.
 
I think snooker cues are fine for pool when there's not much distance between the balls, but become limiting on longer shots. You have to strike the ball very cleanly to get action over distance.
 
nobcitypool said:
I'm not so sure you get more spin with a smaller diameter shaft. I believe what happens is you actually hit lower or further outside with a smaller diameter shaft which is what generates the increased spin. The actual difference in the area that contacts the CB, when comparing a 9 mm and 13 mm shaft, is infinitesimal. If there is a difference, it seems it would have to be related to shaft stiffness or mass. I've played a lot with 13 mm "monster" shafts from custom cue makers weighing 4.2 to 4.5 ounces and now play with an OB2. I have a Z2 as well that fits the same cue. I can't see any significant difference in spin between any of those shafts.
Click to expand...

Dr Dave would be the one I would ask about that.
His site is loaded with facts and video demonstrations
Maybe he will chime in
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
Only in cues have I heard that. The wood literature usually ascribes a bit more stiffness to rock maple.

Hard maple has been the standard neck wood used by Fender guitar in all their guitars and basses for the last 60 years or so. These instruments can have over 170 pounds of tension on them 24/7, so resistance to bending is really a key factor in wood choice. Hard maple is always more expensive than ash, so I think Fender might have chosen ash for necks if it worked as well because they are cheap SOBs. :cool:
Click to expand...

Fender guitars have an adjustable truss rod inside the neck that keeps the neck straight. Without the truss rod the neck would bend under the tension of the strings.
 
bdorman said:
The other popular wood for guitar necks is mahogany. Most acoustic guitars have a mahogany neck because they sound better (same string tension, etc).

I've often wondered why mahogany isn't used in pool cues. It's not as pretty as cocobolo, rosewood, etc., but it's a dream to work with and one of the most durable woods.
Click to expand...

I play with an old house cue that has had a joint added. It is mahogany and maple... S2.jpg

Sorry, didnt mean to derail thread
 
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