Why do some top players blatantly pattern rack (cheat) when on a live streamed table?

Skippy27 said:
What the heck are you talking about?

There are 2 balls that are set where they need to go, which is almost 25% of the balls in a game of 9 ball. Beyond that, pick up the balls and place them in the rack without looking at them or maneuvering them where you want them.

It is very easy to detect. You just have to watch if a player picks up a specific ball and puts it in a specific place.
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I think he's trying to say that you can't really prove that someone didn't put them where they are "randomly". Can't the same couple of balls randomly end up in the same spots? If your opponent wants you to change the order they are in, then they aren't random either. I also think it's a stupid rule that needs to go away.
 
BRussell said:
It's a bad rule IMO. If it's too vague to be enforced, it shouldn't be a rule. Specify where some some balls need to go and let the players put the rest wherever they please. Telling people they have to randomly puttee balls in the rack is unenforceable.
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Here are the rules as currently written:
For 9 Ball:
"2.2 Nine Ball Rack

The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the
apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The
other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern."

For 10 Ball:
"9.2 Ten Ball Rack

The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a triangular shape, with the one ball at the
apex of the triangle and on the foot spot and the ten ball in the middle of the triangle. The
other balls will be placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern."

I think the important part is; "without purposeful or intentional pattern"
The players that do it are INTENTIONALLY putting them in a pattern to suit their PURPOSE.

Should not be that difficult to enforce.

Also IMO all 9ball & 10ball WPA sanctioned events should have independent rackers....problem solved.
 
What's the difference if you pattern rack or not. If you don't have a good repetitive consistent break the pattern of the rack means nothing. Only 5% of all players, in my opinion, have that sort of consistency with their break. You are basically talking about "pro" and "open" players that can consistently pattern rack and have the balls and the cue ball go where they want them to go.
 
BmoreMoney said:
I remember when I was like 11 or 12 and Mike Segal cam out with his tape " Perfect 9 Ball ". On there he said to put the 3 behind the 1 in one of the two spots and the 2 in the bottom of the rack, supposedly when opponent breaks the 3 goes up table and the 2 down table making it harder to get from one to the other and therefore making it harder for them to run out. That's about the extent of my " pattern racking " lol.
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same rack suggested to me by older gambler in the late 50's. Guess it has been around even longer that that.
 
Skippy27 said:
What the heck are you talking about?

There are 2 balls that are set where they need to go, which is almost 25% of the balls in a game of 9 ball. Beyond that, pick up the balls and place them in the rack without looking at them or maneuvering them where you want them.

It is very easy to detect. You just have to watch if a player picks up a specific ball and puts it in a specific place.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see a ref call a foul on someone because they pick up a ball and put it in the rack. Practice just a little and it's easy to look like you're placing them randomly when you're not. Have a couple of patterns that you like and rotate between them. Throw in mirror-image patterns.

If it looks obvious now it's just because they know it can't be enforced, and so they don't even try to hide it. If it was enforced they would just become a little sneakier and it would still be unenforceable.
 
BRussell said:
I'd like to see a ref call a foul on someone because they pick up a ball and put it in the rack. Practice just a little and it's easy to look like you're placing them randomly when you're not. Have a couple of patterns that you like and rotate between them. Throw in mirror-image patterns.

If it looks obvious now it's just because they know it can't be enforced, and so they don't even try to hide it. If it was enforced they would just become a little sneakier and it would still be unenforceable.
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That's a MUCH clearer way of saying what I tried to. Thanks.
 
Ad if you give a moments more thoight to the matter...players might have many patterns they believe to be beneficial.

Imo, it is as useful as any other superstition.
 
GB Basher said:
Here are the rules as currently written:
For 9 Ball:
"2.2 Nine Ball Rack

The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a diamond shape, with the one ball at the
apex of the diamond and on the foot spot and the nine ball in the middle of the diamond. The
other balls will be placed in the diamond without purposeful or intentional pattern."

For 10 Ball:
"9.2 Ten Ball Rack

The object balls are racked as tightly as possible in a triangular shape, with the one ball at the
apex of the triangle and on the foot spot and the ten ball in the middle of the triangle. The
other balls will be placed in the triangle without purposeful or intentional pattern."

I think the important part is; "without purposeful or intentional pattern"
The players that do it are INTENTIONALLY putting them in a pattern to suit their PURPOSE.

Should not be that difficult to enforce.

Also IMO all 9ball & 10ball WPA sanctioned events should have independent rackers....problem solved.
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Thanks.

Courts of law have to prove intent by presenting evidence to a jury about the defendant's state of mind. I can imagine refs calling witnesses and obtaining search warrants for emails and texts with the player saying "I'm going to pattern rack the hell out of this tournament."

Just be done with the whole thing:
1. Use independent rackers like you suggest, or
2. Let people pattern rack beyond 2 or 3 balls that have required placement. If they get an advantage from studying the break, good for them! or
3. Require a specific all-ball pattern that everyone has to use.

But it's unworkable to tell people to behave randomly and if they don't it's illegal.

I have a genuine question: Has any ref in a major tournament ever called a foul on a player for pattern racking? I know the issue has come up and there have been complaints and warnings, but has there ever been a foul called?
 
BRussell said:
Thanks.

Courts of law have to prove intent by presenting evidence to a jury about the defendant's state of mind. I can imagine refs calling witnesses and obtaining search warrants for emails and texts with the player saying "I'm going to pattern rack the hell out of this tournament."

Just be done with the whole thing:
1. Use independent rackers like you suggest, or
2. Let people pattern rack beyond 2 or 3 balls that have required placement. If they get an advantage from studying the break, good for them! or
3. Require a specific all-ball pattern that everyone has to use.

But it's unworkable to tell people to behave randomly and if they don't it's illegal.

I have a genuine question: Has any ref in a major tournament ever called a foul on a player for pattern racking? I know the issue has come up and there have been complaints and warnings, but has there ever been a foul called?
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I agree with what you're saying.
As the rule is there, it should be enforced at the time. Or retrospectively by deduction from prize money or something.
It is very easy to prove with video evidence that every rack was racked the same.

If the rule is not going to be enforced, get rid of it.

.....I don't of any time a foul has ever been called on anyone doing it.
Would it come under unsportsmanlike conduct? I don't know.
 
GB Basher said:
Quite a few of the better players pattern rack (cheat) whilst on live streamed tables.
It is so easy for people to notice it.
And why is nothing done about it.
.....that's my rant for the day over
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pt109 said:
I pattern rack every time I give up weight...
...and the guy getting weight pattern racks too.
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I've played in tournaments where you had to rack the two-ball at the bottom of the diamond.
However, I think the WPA rule is poorly worded...
...and your use of the word 'cheat' is also.

How about a positive solution?
ALL balls are racked in a certain order.

...................1
..................78
.................395
..................46
...................2
 
pt109 said:
I've played in tournaments where you had to rack the two-ball at the bottom of the diamond.
However, I think the WPA rule is poorly worded...
...and your use of the word 'cheat' is also.

How about a positive solution?
ALL balls are racked in a certain order.

...................1
..................78
.................395
..................46
...................2
Click to expand...


Exactly the way I rack 'em.
 
pt109 said:
I've played in tournaments where you had to rack the two-ball at the bottom of the diamond.
However, I think the WPA rule is poorly worded...
...and your use of the word 'cheat' is also.

How about a positive solution?
ALL balls are racked in a certain order.

...................1
..................78
.................395
..................46
...................2
Click to expand...

Yes, I like your positive solution. It's one of many that would work.

Re me using the word 'cheat', I respect your opinion. Obviously my opinion is different.

I still believe independent rackers is good, as this might make the sport look slightly more professional.
 
GB Basher said:
Yes, I like your positive solution. It's one of many that would work.

Re me using the word 'cheat', I respect your opinion. Obviously my opinion is different.

I still believe independent rackers is good, as this might make the sport look slightly more professional.
Click to expand...

I've been advocating third party rackers forever....well, almost forever.:)
...but that racking pattern is only for open tournaments...
...if I'm giving up the 5-6-7-8....I refuse to use that order.....
...and my opponent shouldn't either.
 
mchnhed said:
Didn't Pool Rooms used to have Rack Boys?

I'll take that job!
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Last time I played with a houseman that racked was late 70s in Hopkinsville KY.
...well, other than a few refereed tournaments.
 
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