Why do they still have the stupid unfair break rule at World Cup?

SakuJack said:
Honestly, I don't mind the three balls potted or past the headstring rule.

Sometimes a player hits it good and gets some unlucky kisses... but it's pretty rarely the case from what I have seen.

Somebody made the point earlier that players almost never hit the balls at full speed, and are generally flirting with the chance of an illegal break based on how softly they hit the balls, and that's completely correct, IMO.

With India's final break of the match, Amar hit the balls hard but he caught the one-ball way too thin (as you can see by how far it went up the table), which was ultimately his undoing. He didn't get unlucky. He just hit the break bad and paid for it.

The illegal break rules aren't perfect, but they're a more practical solution than a radar gun or break speed app, and it seems nobody wants to see soft breaking... so there's not too many options left.

I don't mind soft breaks, but I don't mind illegal break rules like this one either. One thing I do know is that pool players/fans will complain about anything.
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Why wouldn't a radar gun solve the problem? The organizers want hard breaks and imposing a 20mph rule solves that without penalizing the players for all the kisses and caroms that can occur. 20mph is a decently hard break and should satisfy anyone that the player has complied with the effort to break hard.
 
I play all games in pool from straight pool, banks, 1 pocket & rotation games. Of all of them I love rotation pool more than any, it's been a life long love. I said this in another thread on breaks & I'll say it here. 9 ball has been around forever & it amazes me that people played it in tournaments & gambling up to about 15 years ago without the break being this issue of focus it has become. This focus has spawned 4572 new & varying rules about the break & oceans full of tears cried about it all along the way. It truly sickens me to see the game I love the most be reduced to this.
 
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Colonel said:
I play all games in pool from straight pool, banks, 1 pocket & rotation games. Of all of them I love rotation pool more than any, it's been a life long love. I said this in another thread on breaks & I'll say it here. 9 ball has been around forever & it amazes me that people played it in tournaments & gambling up to about 15 years ago without the break being this issue of focus it has become. This focus has spawned 4572 new & varying rules about the break & oceans full of tears cried about it all along the way. It truly sickens me to see the game I love the most be reduced to this.
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I think a couple things have contributed to the issues with breaking. One is racking tight and getting a good rack. I was shown by a road player several ways to slug rack someone with strategic gaps and almost imperceptible rack tilts. Then Joe Tucker came out with racking secrets exposing a lot of it and teaching people how to read racks.

Another thing has been the internet and people talking about it and comparing notes.

Then you have the mad genius Corey Deull figuring out how to break every rack as various speeds and get cosmo outs. One of the ESPN 7 Ball events he flat out killed the field with the amount of break and runs he achieved.

Lastly the advent of tapped racks and template racks. Those turned out to be a double edged sword. Because they give the player what the player wants which is a perfectly tight rack and then they turn the rack into a trick shot.

All these things combined have led to complaints from players and fans and promoters.

I was present when Predator was handing out break cues like candy at the World Championships in Manila AND paying $1000 (I think) to any player who used it on the tv table. All the players figured out that the soft break worked best and here they were getting paid $1000 a match to soft break with Predator's super break cue.

Hard breaks are more exciting from a viewer's perspective. They are also more unpredictable from the player's point of view.

I guess for me the bigger travesty is how malleable the rules are in pool. Pros in pool probably have to put up with more different rules tournament to tournament than any pro in any other sport. And the same thing applies to amateurs. It's straight up ridiculous that go from event to event and room to room and see that no matter the size of the tournament they just make up whatever they want as a rule and stick it to the players.
 
JB Cases said:
Why wouldn't a radar gun solve the problem? The organizers want hard breaks and imposing a 20mph rule solves that without penalizing the players for all the kisses and caroms that can occur. 20mph is a decently hard break and should satisfy anyone that the player has complied with the effort to break hard.
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It could work, but it's kind of impractical and could lead to a lot of debate. How accurate are those things? You could end up in a situation where a player breaks relatively hard at 6-6, the radar gun says 19.9 and the player disputes it.

Playing 3 balls potted or past the head string removes all debate over what's legal or what's not. You can hammer the balls and guarantee 3 are going to cross, or you play a bit softer, focus on making the one in the side, and flirt with making an illegal break if you don't hit it hard enough or catch the 1-ball slightly low.

I was out playing a few days ago, and the number of times 3 balls didn't end up in the pockets or up table was few and far between - and I'm not a particularly hard breaker, and focus on making the 1-ball in the side pocket. The times I did notice I would have made an illegal break (under these rules) I'd invariably hit it bad and caught the 1-ball too thin.

Like I said, I don't necessarily disagree with the idea of a radar gun, I just don't think it's necessary and could lead to a new set of problems.
 
I know that the rule would be bad in 8-ball league with a scoring per ball situation. If you only need a few balls on the last game to win the round and are breaking, the best thing to do is a safe break leaving clusters.
 
hang-the-9 said:
How many times are teams going to break hard (which is clearly what that 3 balls past the line rule is about), make a ball and then only one or no balls make it past the line and have to sit and watch the opponents run out on their GOOD EFFIN BREAK???

I'm pissed off at the rule and I'm not even playing!

Idiots!

India was on a roll, they break well, a ball goes in, one goes past the line, and a ball hangs in the jaws. They have to sit. Now instead of being on the hill it's 5-3. And they had a successful hard break where a ball went in. Argh!
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past which line? The headstring? I'd lose every time.

I like speed limit idea.

Freddie <~~~ stealing it and suggesting it to Barry
 
Inaction said:
I know that the rule would be bad in 8-ball league with a scoring per ball situation. If you only need a few balls on the last game to win the round and are breaking, the best thing to do is a safe break leaving clusters.
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We are talking about the World Cup rules, not leagues. Plus all the leagues rules I read specifically prohibit "safe breaking".
 
hang-the-9 said:
We are talking about the World Cup rules, not leagues. Plus all the leagues rules I read specifically prohibit "safe breaking".
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WOW!! Little sensitive?

I apologize for transferring a breaking rule to another game. At least it was still pool related.

The discussion is also about breaking rules. And it is possible to break safe enough to make a run out in 8 ball much more difficult. Just imagine if you needed a 10-2 or bigger win and your opponent hits the 3rd ball driving the required 4 balls to the rail, but leaving a clustered mess. It is much more unlikely that you will get that big win.
 
Inaction said:
WOW!! Little sensitive?

I apologize for transferring a breaking rule to another game. At least it was still pool related.

The discussion is also about breaking rules. And it is possible to break safe enough to make a run out in 8 ball much more difficult. Just imagine if you needed a 10-2 or bigger win and your opponent hits the 3rd ball driving the required 4 balls to the rail, but leaving a clustered mess. It is much more unlikely that you will get that big win.
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The rule used in the world cup has nothing to do with the breaking in league rules, so all of a sudden saying "well in 8 ball league... blah blah" is totally off the track. It would be like a car forum talking about V8 engines in American Muscle Cars and someone popping in and saying "V8 engine is not practical to use as it won't fit in a Mini Cooper."

Plus you can't hit the 3rd ball either:

From APA:
"To be a legal break, players must break from
behind the head string. The head ball or the second row of
balls must be struck first and at least four object balls must
be driven to the rails or a ball must be pocketed"

From TAP:
"The breaking player must first drive the cue ball
directly into the rack of balls, striking the first or second ball, and causing
at least five (5) balls, (the cue ball can be one of the five balls) to hit a
rail."
 
I was thinking if you made a small break box wouldn't that pretty much eliminate all of the other machinations having to do with racking the balls (9 on the spot) or balls past the head string, or radar guns. If you made guys break from center I think it would force them to hit them hard and add randomness if that is the goal.
 
I like the rule. I really think that if I played in tourney with this rule, I could have a 100% success rate. So, if I could do, the guys in this tourney certainly could. Hit the balls, ladies.
 
For what it's worth, Shane was interviewed while at Turning Stone about the Mosconi Cup, and he specifically singled out the break rules as a problem for the Americans. Apparently the Euros use this rule regularly, like on their tour?

The interview is at the end of this week's American Billiard Radio broadcast.
 
JB Cases said:
Paul,

Have you proposed your rules to the WPA, BCA and Matchroom? I think it might be worth it to lobby them. Obviously there is a problem because it seems like every other tournament has to make special rules about the break.
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I have not and never will. The rules are there on the Internet for everyone to read, analyze and implement, if they so desire. The rules are viewed thousands of times a month from all over the world. I use the rules exclusively for all my leagues and tournaments for players of all levels. I use them because they work so well. Nothing else does.

If everyone wants to continue to cheat, be cheated, fight, and argue, that is okay by me. It is just not going to happen in my events.
 
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BRussell said:
For what it's worth, Shane was interviewed while at Turning Stone about the Mosconi Cup, and he specifically singled out the break rules as a problem for the Americans. Apparently the Euros use this rule regularly, like on their tour?

The interview is at the end of this week's American Billiard Radio broadcast.
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Yeah I've heard that before. The Euros are more used to that break rule and 9 on the spot. That's why during last year's Mosconi Cup the break rules were set by Johnny Archer with the small break box and no cut break. Can't say it helped much.
 
Sometimes people who make rules and occupy governing positions are control freaks who find themselves unable to leave things alone. The result is nonsensical rules.

In this case however, I'll bet I could break 50 consecutive racks where 3 balls would either get above the head string or go in a pocket.
 
alstl said:
sometimes people who make rules and occupy governing positions are control freaks who find themselves unable to leave things alone. The result is nonsensical rules.

In this case however, i'll bet i could break 50 consecutive racks where 3 balls would either get above the head string or go in a pocket.
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Bet!!!!!!!! :D
 
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