why do we need a ferrule?

[Ernie eyocues]

I've seen some shafts without ferrules. First they looked strange, second after
thinking about it, I think it makes sense. I thought the ferrule was to protect the
shaft from splitting. But installing a ferrule with a tendon seems more likely to
cause a crack because if the glue separates then you only have a small tendon
to bend and break. With just a leather tip you have the whole shaft to support
the bending. IMO. I finally decided to do some experimenting and
seeing whether the tip will pop off the wood surface and I also install a phenolic
sheet between the tip and the wood. They seem to be quite solid. The hit feels
solid too.
Anyone one have any experience with this new configuration?

 

[ideologist]

Chuck Starkey, Black Boar. ..

 

[JoeyInCali]

I've never seen tenons split from normal use.
I wish everyone knows how to properly chalk.
But, that's not the case. The area below the tip will likely get hit with chalk often. And the ferrule will have to be replaced eventually.
Carbon fiber liner makes more sense than phenolic to me.

 

[Kim Bye]

The Mezz break shafts uses a very thin G10 ferrule or pad, depending on how you view it.
They work very well indeed.

 

[RBC]

We've experimented with it before.

It does remove the weight of the ferrule, but it also loses some of the advantages of having a ferrule.

The hit was always solid, but lacked the feel that we were after.

We did use a carbon fiber pad, and it works great. The risk is that if the back side of the tip wants spread or mushroom, it will take the shaft with it, causing it to split.

Also, Joey is right that some will cut a groove in the side of the shaft by careless chalking with a hollowed out cube of chalk. The ferrule holds up against that much better than wood does.


Royce

 

[carguy]

..... We did use a carbon fiber pad, and it works great. The risk is that if the back side of the tip wants spread or mushroom, it will take the shaft with it, causing it to split.
Royce

Hi Royce-

But that's what the carbon fiber disc is for. The carbon fiber will not spread and keeps the back side of the tip from doing so, so there's no tendency for the shaft to split.

I have not used ferrules in years. Works great

Robin Snyder

 

[RBC]

Hi Royce-

But that's what the carbon fiber disc is for. The carbon fiber will not spread and keeps the back side of the tip from doing so, so there's no tendency for the shaft to split.

I have not used ferrules in years. Works great

Robin Snyder

Robin,

I agree completely.

I guess I was trying to that the risk without a carbon pad is that the shaft may split.


Royce

 

[carguy]

Royce-
Thanks for the reply. Upon re-reading, I figured that's what you meant.

Robin Snyder

 

[iusedtoberich]

I saw with my own eyes a BB ferruleless shaft that was split. The owner was super careful with his stuff and never used it for breaking. I believe Tony made him a new shaft. The point is, the ferrule adds strength to the shaft. There may be a lot of ferruleless shafts that are holding up great, but I'd make an educated guess they are more likely to split than a regular shaft.

 

[carguy]

I saw with my own eyes a BB ferruleless shaft that was split. The owner was super careful with his stuff and never used it for breaking. I believe Tony made him a new shaft. The point is, the ferrule adds strength to the shaft. There may be a lot of ferruleless shafts that are holding up great, but I'd make an educated guess they are more likely to split than a regular shaft.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your observation demonstrates that some shafts with no ferrule CAN split, not that they are more likely to.

In fact, it may well be the reverse.

Most cracks in shafts (caused by play) I've seen emanate from the base of the tennon where it meets the shaft. Since that highly loaded junction is not present on a ferrule-less shaft, and since the load on the shaft tip is very well distributed, I don't really expect to see much failure in this area.

I don't know the anatomy of the front of a BB shaft. Perhaps they are made differently than mine.
I'm pretty sure there's more going on besides leaving off the ferrule.

Robin Snyder

 

[RBC]

I saw with my own eyes a BB ferruleless shaft that was split. The owner was super careful with his stuff and never used it for breaking. I believe Tony made him a new shaft. The point is, the ferrule adds strength to the shaft. There may be a lot of ferruleless shafts that are holding up great, but I'd make an educated guess they are more likely to split than a regular shaft.

iusedtoberich

I would tend to believe, based on my own personal experience, that if the shaft split that it most likely didn't have a carbon fiber pad between the tip and the shaft.


Royce

 

[iusedtoberich]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but your observation demonstrates that some shafts with no ferrule CAN split, not that they are more likely to.

In fact, it may well be the reverse.

Most cracks in shafts (caused by play) I've seen emanate from the base of the tennon where it meets the shaft. Since that highly loaded junction is not present on a ferrule-less shaft, and since the load on the shaft tip is very well distributed, I don't really expect to see much failure in this area.

I don't know the anatomy of the front of a BB shaft. Perhaps they are made differently than mine.
I'm pretty sure there's more going on besides leaving off the ferrule.

Robin Snyder

Good points. And now that I think about it more, I am almost positive that BB shaft was a low squirt shaft and hollowed out in some fashion. I guess the question would be:

In normal use, would a ferruless shaft split/break more or less often than the ferrule breaking on a standard shaft. The reason I worded it this way, is that is the minimum level of "splitting" damage that can happen to each respective shaft type. However, in one case its a new ferrule, in the other case its a new shaft.

I guess in the end it doesn't matter too much. All construction techniques have some amount of failures. As long as those failure percentages do not become too high, then all is good

 

[Ernie eyocues]

great feedback

Thanks for the replies. I've up most of the night thinking of the replies. Great input
I totally over look the splitting problem, I did think of different methods of failure.
Limiting a radial or hoop load is important and I should have accounted for it
because of my experiments with LD shafts. I've split a few that are in my barrel
of knowledge, filled with countless mistakes, I'm annoyed that I didn't account for it.
I've tried using different ferrules like brass jam nuts which can be cut down quite thin.
Using a metal washer might work, I'm going to try it, like a brass washer with a large
hole. Basicly a very thin ferrule. Running an experiment is having a large enough
sample size to guess at a solution. One example is small to make a guess but it
does show a problem that my arise. This cracked shaft is a problem but knowing
why it failed is more important. One result should not stop an experiment.

I've only made a few ferruleless shafts but I have a couple of LD with a phenolic pad,
this phenolic sheet is fibre reinforced maybe not as strong as carbon but reasonable.
I will test them with some high forces but so far they seem to work fine. I'm also
getting use to the look. I'm a so so minimalist, so less is more. I'm also a
hypocrite, I like veneers and some ring work.

thanks again for keeping me up at night.

 

[iusedtoberich]

To the cue makers and experimenters out there.... you could design a machine that cycle tests the impact resistance (or anything else you want to test) of new designs. You could make one with a low rpm DC gear motor, a power supply, a heavy plate that is hinged, and a straight arm attached to the motor that will lift up the hinged heavy plate, and then allow it to drop under its own weight onto the tip of the cue. Add a mechanical counter to it, and let it run.

It would not be exactly a real world situation, it would be for comparative purposes. You would do the same test on a tried and proven design (conventional shaft) and then see how much better or worse the experimental design is.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Thanks for the replies. I've up most of the night thinking of the replies. Great input
I totally over look the splitting problem, I did think of different methods of failure.
Limiting a radial or hoop load is important and I should have accounted for it
because of my experiments with LD shafts. I've split a few that are in my barrel
of knowledge, filled with countless mistakes, I'm annoyed that I didn't account for it.
I've tried using different ferrules like brass jam nuts which can be cut down quite thin.
Using a metal washer might work, I'm going to try it, like a brass washer with a large
hole. Basicly a very thin ferrule. Running an experiment is having a large enough
sample size to guess at a solution. One example is small to make a guess but it
does show a problem that my arise. This cracked shaft is a problem but knowing
why it failed is more important. One result should not stop an experiment.

I've only made a few ferruleless shafts but I have a couple of LD with a phenolic pad,
this phenolic sheet is fibre reinforced maybe not as strong as carbon but reasonable.
I will test them with some high forces but so far they seem to work fine. I'm also
getting use to the look. I'm a so so minimalist, so less is more. I'm also a
hypocrite, I like veneers and some ring work.

thanks again for keeping me up at night.

I'd ditch brass.
Mason's micarta is the strongest available ferrule that is also light .

 

[carguy]

In my experience, an ultralight ferrule is much more liable to crack than a properly built shaft without one.

As Joey mentioned, Mason's micarta seems to be the strongest light weight ferrule material out there but....why use one?


Robin Snyder

 

[Redneck Jim]

Protecting the Ferruleless Shaft

I've been using a shaft without a ferrule for over a year with no problems. The tip is 11.75 mm and I don't baby it ( in other words, I also break with it).

As a low tech method of protection, I cut out a piece from an old cd/dvd, and used it as a pad between the shaft and tip. - It's not carbon fiber, but has been plenty tough enough.

 

[Ernie eyocues]

the hammer test

I did a short test using my framing hammer. I hit the samples like I was
driving a 16d common nail. I didn't think they would survive but they did.
Yes the test is not prefect but I did hit them pretty hard. Hard enough that
I missed once.

 

[iusedtoberich]

As long as you did not hit your thumb!!! :grin-square::grin-square::grin-square:

 

[iusedtoberich]

It would be interesting to do your test with a tip glued onto the shaft directly, without a fiber pad. Since we know in practice a mushrooming tip will split a ferruleless shaft without a fiber pad of some sort, because of the lack of hoop strength, doing that test with your hammer apparatus will help you to know if that test is good enough. For example, if you can't cause this scenario to split the shaft, the test is not stringent enough.

Nice to see the experiments