Why does snooker thrive and pool die?

[subdude1974]

Climate. Let's say in England, people are indoors lots more as the temperature there is much cooler than in the states. More people indoors, the more people watching and playing. More people equates to more people caring about it. That in turn translates into more money. When you have lots of interest in a product, the easier it is to sell it.

 

[bender_lu]

@longbomber: like woods who ****ed about every 2nd prostitute in the USA? like armstrong who is, probably, the greatest doper of all time? like olympic swimming teams where some women look like a race horse on steorits? like soccer players who are better known for kung fu kicks into the public than anything else? i could make a list of 20+ pages.

still these sports are more popular.

pool has to profite from the new technologies such as live streaming on the internet. i read here somewhere that the commentators are boring. i agree. i fall asleep when think about some commentators.

we need:

- ONE tournament discipline that can get players and average joes hooked. i would, personally, vote for straight pool (because of its complexity, difficulty level, yet its looks more classy than bangers games like 9ball) or 8 ball (everyone knows 8 ball and plays it, whenever, where ever)

- good livestreaming; and yes it exists. kazoom with eurotour and EPC. please dont kill me when i say this but the 14.1 world tournament has some awesome video quality and coul eaily attract more people IF

- good commentators; i remember one match when the maincommentator had max eberle on his side for a match (2011 dont remember which one).
Max E. could have surely given much more input but the major problem of the commentator was the color of the 4 ball... for more than 20 minutes!!
Snooker got a huge fanbase in germany because of Rolf Kalb who, basically, explains "Snooker for dummies". this gets the average person into the game. Then you need a 2nd commentator who is very aknowledged about the game, who can read patterns, explain the spins etc.
Noone wants someone to commentate a match who speaks like an old bishop.

- a base that helps pool to emerge; go to your local poolroom. tell them; "There is a huge livestream, great tournament etc". every poolrom (or at least the ones i know) has some sort of beamer. a poolroom lives from pool and shouldnt show nascar or another redneck shit, it should show POOL!!!
the hardware and the software are not that expensive so show poolplayers and bangers what good pool looks like.

The base has to do its job. The TD have to do their job. Streamers have to do their job. and finally: The pros have to do their job!!! but thats another thread....

wish you all a nice friday and a good weekend start.

 

[SakuJack]

Two words: Earl Strickland.

Do you really think mom/dad want their boy/girl playing pool professionally when one of the top ranked players is a dick? And where exactly would a company's brand fit in when a guy like Earl wins the tourney and takes home the grand prize? Earl doesn't represent the sport well and is the worst ambassador you can have for the sport. It's part of the reason the sport hasn't attracted more sponsors and money in the past.

Snooker is a game of professional sportsmen and women. Fouls are often called by the offender, and players always shake hands at the end. Just go to the BBC and watch all the little kids lining up to play snooker in UK and China - in part thanks to Barry and the professional attitude snooker has worked hard to keep (mostly). OK, wait, I know you are going to mention Alex Higgins and say he made the sport worth watching. Yes he did, but for himself. Just imagine if that talent was funneled into growing snooker further with youth and in schools and people looked at Alex the same way they now look at Steve Davis and Shaun Murphy? How much better would snooker be as an international sport? Probably even further ahead.

The game needs an ambassador that parents and companies will respond to. Earl isn't one of them.

Well... yeah:

The last thing that cue sports need is more Shaun Murphys.

 

[pooler]

Well... yeah:

The last thing that cue sports need is more Shaun Murphys.

Well... yeah: ???

AND MORE ALEX HIGGINS'es (??????)

 

[skogstokig]

Two words: Earl Strickland.

Do you really think mom/dad want their boy/girl playing pool professionally when one of the top ranked players is a dick? And where exactly would a company's brand fit in when a guy like Earl wins the tourney and takes home the grand prize? Earl doesn't represent the sport well and is the worst ambassador you can have for the sport. It's part of the reason the sport hasn't attracted more sponsors and money in the past.

Snooker is a game of professional sportsmen and women. Fouls are often called by the offender, and players always shake hands at the end. Just go to the BBC and watch all the little kids lining up to play snooker in UK and China - in part thanks to Barry and the professional attitude snooker has worked hard to keep (mostly). OK, wait, I know you are going to mention Alex Higgins and say he made the sport worth watching. Yes he did, but for himself. Just imagine if that talent was funneled into growing snooker further with youth and in schools and people looked at Alex the same way they now look at Steve Davis and Shaun Murphy? How much better would snooker be as an international sport? Probably even further ahead.

The game needs an ambassador that parents and companies will respond to. Earl isn't one of them.

i've been a long time fan of earls play but recently i watched TAR earl vs shane and also earl vs landon shuffet on 10-foot challenge. and i'm disgusted. the thing is, earl can't behave without a referee. he is like a dog without a leash (which is probably even an unfair comment to most dogs).

now, snooker have, and has had, bad boys too. the difference is they are under strict rules. one curse-word and you have to pay a fine. it's easy to understand that most sponsors won't touch a competition where there's a loose dog barking and behaving badly.

i think there's a difference in european and american mentality here also. americans are very much against authoritarianism, which is definitely sound. but in some sports..heck, i think that's what's needed. strict clothes and behavior rules and an authoritarian organization.

 

[smooth stroker]

In the US its all about the MEDIA

In the US its all about the media and the $ paying them off.

Please read the entire post and not only the topic question

I am an avid american pool fan, it's a big part of my heart and life. The best game in the world. It's with great sadness i see pool halls closing and world elite pool getting almost no media attention. But why is this?

I'd like to make a comparison. In Europa and in Asia the game of snooker is very popular. It's one of the fastest growing sports in the arab world and in eastern asia. Even people who doesn't play or even feel remotely interested in snooker know who Ronnie O'Sullivan is, just like average joe knows who Shaq O'neil is in the USA, no matter whether they have an interest in basketball or not. I myself like to watch snooker even though i don't play it and there are lots of broadcasts here in europe to see it, most people have eurosport, SKY or BBC in their TV:s, even in poor countries like Romania.

I have been thinking a lot about this, in order to try to identify the differences. In my eyes pool can be just as entertaining as snooker. Why then does snooker have money and media attention and pool does not? These are a few differences between the games, i will list a few and hope some join in and add to the list:

1. Availability and media attention. Snooker is not a PPV sport. PPV doesn't even exist in many countries in Europe and Asia. Instead, snooker is broadcasted widely on big TV channels mentioned above, and even public service TV in China, reaching millions and millions of viewers. This creates interest, money and new aspiring players.

2. Advertising and sponsorship. Pool tourneys tend to have cue tip or cue manufacturers as sponsors. Snooker have betting companies, poker sites, beer, i.e. BIG MONEY. These businesses - as opposed to for example kamui tips - attract viewers widely. They watch snooker and then go to unibet, bettson, etc and SPEND money. This leads to 3 and 4.

3. Prize money is big. Winners of a snooker tournament can win £625,000. Thats a million dollars in prize fund. And that's UK champs, not even the biggest tournament - the world championship has DOUBLE that in prize fund. And it doesn't end there, if any player makes a perfect rack (147) they can win £60,000, thats almost a 100 000$. In ten minutes flat. Aside from this the players make great money in company gigs, advertising and sponsorship. Some players have earned more than world elite golfers, tennis players, etc. And big money is not only good for the sport, it also leads to admiration and to people wanting to start playing snooker.

4. Betting on the games is big and is growing, and it's not something that happens in obscure places/internet forums. Go to one of the betting sites mentioned above, or any other, pick a winner and you can win loads of money. I won some 1000$ last year, and as a said i'm not even primarily a snooker fan.

5. Rules of the game are stable and not changing much. That means, once the people have learned the game they can follow it on the TV and get the hang of it. Also, there is only one governing body world wide and it has great authority.

There are probably more differences and discussion points, please fill in.

I don't have a simple solution or answer but i think that looking at the snooker scene and the snooker business - because it is a business - can help pool a lot. The first thing i would go for is advertising. Kamui tips are great, i'm not dissing them - i use it myself, but advertising needs to attract the wide audience. Where are the big gambling sites in pool sponsorship? Is it not legal to have that kind of ads? As i have tried to show it's an upward spiral: big attention -> big money -> financially successful players -> admiration -> new players

 

[Pidge]

Earl may be the 'bad boy' of pool, but other sports have all had this.
John McEnroe- tennis
Mike Tyson - boxing
Wayne Rooney, cristiano ronaldo (the list is endless) - football
Freddie Flintoff - cricket...YES CRICKET!

There are many more, in a variety of sports. All the above sports get far more TV time than snooker in the UK. Snooker probably makes up around 5% of the televised sport here and yet it gets big sponsorship deals and such.

The problem for pool is it is damn boring watching a guy, dressed like he just got out of bed, pot 9 balls, then another 9, miss, then the other guy pots 9 and so on.

Firstly there is no real professionalism in pool, they don't dress smart, some don't act smart and pros taking a dive is all too common.

Darts and pool are very similar IMO. But darts has grown hugely over the last 10 years in Europe. If they played pool in a darts environment it wouldn't do the game any harm. Let the crowd be loud and show their support instead of sitting and clapping after a guy pots 9 in a row.

 

[weakfingers]

Pool is too slow.

I hate to say it, but I really think the key to getting pool on TV is:

1) Getting pool in the mainstream... this means through a reality show, a blockbuster Hollywood film, etc...

2) Fast shot clocks in pool. It needs to be seen more as a fast moving "sport" rather than a game, precision with speed, maybe a 20 second shot clock on all shots.

 

[Scaramouche]

Pool is too slow.

Fast shot clocks in pool. It needs to be seen more as a fast moving "sport" rather than a game, precision with speed, maybe a 20 second shot clock on all shots.

Snooker has a Shootout - a single frame match - maximum 10 minutes
15 seconds for the first 5 minutes
10 seconds for the second 5 minutes

Premier League has a 25 second shot clock.
If you want to see how this works, the final is this weekend
Saturday November 24 - 2:30 p.m. - 8:30 a.m. EST - scheduled for 3.5 hrs.
Sunday November 25 - 7:30 p.m - 2:30 p.m. EST - scheduled for 2.5 hrs.
Winner gets £50,000, that's $80,000
During the competition they have been playing for
£1,000 per frame
and
£1,000 for a century.
It runs on a points system - 6 frames played per match, a will gets 2 points, a tie gets 1 point.
Skysports
http://www.skysports.com/video/tv_guide/0,23973,,00.html

Streams
http://www.sportlemon.tv/c-11.html
http://www.stopstream.tv/
http://www.hahasport.com/

Possibly here
http://mypremium.tv/

In normal play, there is no time limit contemplating shots.
However, matches start at the appointed time, and any match that is not close to finishing will be suspended and the players have to come back whenever they can be fitted in.

 

[Ghosst]

I've said it before: figure out what makes other sports successful first.

Not, "well they have sponsorship so it doesn't count". Figure out how they became popular. If golf is slow and boring, why is it successful? Bowling is on TV more; why?

Bemoan whatever circumstance, but other "boring" sports are still more accessible on television.

As far as pool dying, it's still pretty popular in the winter here. If you're not at the hall by 7:00 you probably won't get a table. It would take less energy and money to stay home and play video games yet people are out.

 

[SugarMaple]

Grapevine

Don Cherry asked Cliff Thorburn, what's the difference between pool and snooker?..........Cliff rubbed the lapels of Don's loud paisley jacket and said , :this is pool:.......rubbed the lapels on his tux, and said: this is snooker:

 

[david(tx)]

Please read the entire post and not only the topic question

I am an avid american pool fan, it's a big part of my heart and life. The best game in the world. It's with great sadness i see pool halls closing and world elite pool getting almost no media attention. But why is this?

I'd like to make a comparison. In Europa and in Asia the game of snooker is very popular. It's one of the fastest growing sports in the arab world and in eastern asia. Even people who doesn't play or even feel remotely interested in snooker know who Ronnie O'Sullivan is, just like average joe knows who Shaq O'neil is in the USA, no matter whether they have an interest in basketball or not. I myself like to watch snooker even though i don't play it and there are lots of broadcasts here in europe to see it, most people have eurosport, SKY or BBC in their TV:s, even in poor countries like Romania.

I have been thinking a lot about this, in order to try to identify the differences. In my eyes pool can be just as entertaining as snooker. Why then does snooker have money and media attention and pool does not? These are a few differences between the games, i will list a few and hope some join in and add to the list:

1. Availability and media attention. Snooker is not a PPV sport. PPV doesn't even exist in many countries in Europe and Asia. Instead, snooker is broadcasted widely on big TV channels mentioned above, and even public service TV in China, reaching millions and millions of viewers. This creates interest, money and new aspiring players.

2. Advertising and sponsorship. Pool tourneys tend to have cue tip or cue manufacturers as sponsors. Snooker have betting companies, poker sites, beer, i.e. BIG MONEY. These businesses - as opposed to for example kamui tips - attract viewers widely. They watch snooker and then go to unibet, bettson, etc and SPEND money. This leads to 3 and 4.

3. Prize money is big. Winners of a snooker tournament can win £625,000. Thats a million dollars in prize fund. And that's UK champs, not even the biggest tournament - the world championship has DOUBLE that in prize fund. And it doesn't end there, if any player makes a perfect rack (147) they can win £60,000, thats almost a 100 000$. In ten minutes flat. Aside from this the players make great money in company gigs, advertising and sponsorship. Some players have earned more than world elite golfers, tennis players, etc. And big money is not only good for the sport, it also leads to admiration and to people wanting to start playing snooker.

4. Betting on the games is big and is growing, and it's not something that happens in obscure places/internet forums. Go to one of the betting sites mentioned above, or any other, pick a winner and you can win loads of money. I won some 1000$ last year, and as a said i'm not even primarily a snooker fan.

5. Rules of the game are stable and not changing much. That means, once the people have learned the game they can follow it on the TV and get the hang of it. Also, there is only one governing body world wide and it has great authority.

There are probably more differences and discussion points, please fill in.

I don't have a simple solution or answer but i think that looking at the snooker scene and the snooker business - because it is a business - can help pool a lot. The first thing i would go for is advertising. Kamui tips are great, i'm not dissing them - i use it myself, but advertising needs to attract the wide audience. Where are the big gambling sites in pool sponsorship? Is it not legal to have that kind of ads? As i have tried to show it's an upward spiral: big attention -> big money -> financially successful players -> admiration -> new players

Network TV is losing viewership , NetFlix , Amazon and recording devices are taking off , the future of pool is on the Internet through streaming but people aren't willing to pay , they want it free.Bowling changed their approach by moving into arenas for some events , and i consider bowling more fast paced than pool , but they still lost viewership.


Pool is healthy , Pro pool isn't.

 

[skogstokig]

Network TV is losing viewership , NetFlix , Amazon and recording devices are taking off , the future of pool is on the Internet

then why are millions of viewers watching china open snooker today, and tomorrow? even more will be watching the WSC next month, on eurosport, BBC, etc. we have HBO and netflix here in europe too. i wouldn't dream of watching pre-recorded sport, i want to see it live, or atleast within hours.

as for the internet pool "broadcasters", i admire and respect what they (try to) do for the sport but it's hardly the future. especially since the best (BCN) was like ten years ago... to be honest, the only recipe i believe in now is more tourneys in asia and europe on live TV. i'd rather watch chris melling vs. lee van corteza with lots of camera angles, good production and good commentary, than paying PPV for an american match lacking all of the above.

 

[trob]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TCQz40-mxI

The above video is a great watch and is your answer. Bbc turned Snooker players into rock stars. They had the combo of a ton of money by a network... Players that were flamboyant and fun and were great players and it blew up. They had there name and face on everything and like I said became absolute rock stars!!

 

[Scott Lee]

Chris...Actually artistic pool has seen the most growth...even more than the amateur leagues (which are basically stagnant as far as real growth goes). Due to the efforts of people like Tom Rossman, artistic pool is reaching new and better heights every year...at least as far as participants and exposure! I do have to say that I was disappointed at all the misses in this years championship on tv. :grin:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Pools decline isn't due to artistic pool imo, I thinks it's just a cycle that pool has gone through before. It will survive.

 

[GADawg]

That is EXACTLY my point, sir. What is considered "rubbish" overseas is the Holy Grail in America, thus not allowing a lesser sport like pool (or snooker) to come to the forefront. There just isn't room for it in the average Americans sports-following life. Because Asians (possibly Arabs too) are probably NEVER going to have pro football, or NASCAR-type tracks in their countries anytime soon, there has to be some type of sport that caters more towards their natural abilities and/or interests. Snooker/pool fills the bill nicely in these enviroments.

Maniac

I have lived in Asia for many years and can tll you that soccer (football here) is as popular and followed as well or more than any sport in the US. followed closely by F1, cricket,basketball(China) and rugby. Snooker follows somewhere after those.

Pool is also followed very closely in China, Taiwan and the Philippines and is televised regularly. Everybody in China knows who Pan Xiao Ting is, even if they don't play pool.

 

[Celtic]

Which has happened in baseball, football, basketball (especially college) etc. To me this only serves to prove that there are undesirables in every sport, it doesn't imo single out pool.

Yes but in other sports when the players get caught doinv it they get banned for life from that sport (see the Black Sox), in pool they get put into the hall of fame.

 

[Celtic]

Yeah, and besides, how many of the general public would even know that the "fixing" ever took place in that infamous pool tournament? Hell, how many serious poolplayers even know about it? I knew nothing of it until I read about it here on AZB about 2 years ago, and I've been playing pool for over 40 years.

Maniac

That is not the point, at all...

The point is that the betting that can now not be done on pool matches at the Vegas sports books hurt one very important way this sport could have gained some added popularity. The guys in charge of the books knew about it, the casino that hosted the event knew about it, that was enough as it changed the direction the sport might have gone from then on.

 

[Sonny1918]

And in the mean time we get to watch hours of some snot nosed twenty yr old win millions in Poker for outlasting other snot nosed kids.
Could ESPN at least televise some edited matches/tourney's, if not in prime time at least in the wee hours.
And while their at it bring back the Sumo wrestling, that's better than poker too.

 

[trob]

There was a time maybe 10+ years a go that I remember espn saying that pool was there number one rated game that had no certain time slot lol I guess that means of the filler shows that they throw in just blow time. It seems like when the mens tour blew up the womens tour was rolling good so all they were showing was womens pro tournaments or that that terrible artistic pool which really does nothing more lol Now they show nothing..