I think I my have missed your point. It is much more clear now and I would agree with you on that.
Why get so caught up on fundamentals?
- Thread starter Flip_dat_Quarta
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I think I my have missed your point. It is much more clear now and I would agree with you on that.
Someone else that doesn't understand what it means to have perfect fundamentals.
Sorry John
I agree. But who do you listen to ?
If I ask 5 different high level players with different playing styles, each will naturally recommend playing more like they do.
Should I listen to the players whose style is more similar to mine ?
I think (for what that's worth) going over fundamentals is important to keep things in check. As an example if I don't go over them from time to time I notice I line up off center which kills my game when I have to hit harder to get shape. That boils down to the chicken wing I have which is from not lining up properly which comes from not concentrating.
If the cue ball goes where you aim it, and has the spin and power you intend and require, and you do that consistently, your fundamentals are sound. Every time you take a shot with the correct fundamentals, you reinforce them. Every time you do it wrong, you reinforce the wrong way of doing it.
So I have to laugh a little when someone says "stop worrying about your fundamentals" because you're exercising and reinforcing them every time you pick up a cue, for better or worse.
"Proper" form, whatever that is, is just a shortcut that gets you to good fundamentals without a lot of trial and error. It usually has to do with limiting the number of things moving, or getting those things lined up properly so that minor variations in timing and position only make minor errors in the outcome, and you're using your body efficiently so you can get more power and accuracy with less effort. That goes for practically every sport. If you arrive there some other way, it doesn't matter.
But every single shot you take you're working on your fundamentals whether you want to or not.
My interpretation of what others are saying is: some spend too much time trying to perfect their fundamentals instead of improving their biggest weaknesses.
Perfect fundamentals is a good goal to have, but if your fundamentals are sound, should we practice fundamentals occasionally for maintenance and spend more time on the weakest part of our game ?
That leads to my question: who best to listen to to identify your biggest weaknesses ?
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that's the big question...
that's the million dollar question...I wouldn't say to necessarily mimic someone who has a similar playing style to you. Your playing style could be a limiting factor in improving.
The key is figuring out what works best for you and that can be a lifelong endeavor.
Jaden
that's the million dollar question...I wouldn't say to necessarily mimic someone who has a similar playing style to you. Your playing style could be a limiting factor in improving.
The key is figuring out what works best for you and that can be a lifelong endeavor.
Jaden
That's how every athlete does it. I don't know why pool would be any different. I don't know any sport where the athlete says, "Well, my fundamentals are perfect, so I'll just do other things." You're always practicing them. Even when you're not practicing them, you're either reinforcing good ones or encouraging bad ones. When you find bad habits creeping in, or when you're off your game, you go back and do some simple drills to get grooved again. Who doesn't do that?
I have no idea who best to listen to. No offense intended, but I'm a very practical sort of guy and that question sort of borders on philosophy. I don't generally listen to anyone, at least as far as basic fundamentals go. That said, I did take my first lesson a few weeks ago since I stopped playing for a long time, and some funniness crept into my stroke. My stroke is generally pretty good, but he changed how I had my body aimed (I was very sideways...he faced me more into the aim line). It took a couple of weeks of practicing fundamentals (here we go again) to get comfortable, but I'm no longer randomly missing some easy shots I should never miss because it simplified my stroke a little and there's less that can go wrong. It's far more comfortable now too. If you're serious enough about the game to even be considering any of this, you're probably serious enough that you can tell when you're stroking the ball like crap and could use a bit of help from a qualified pro. I wouldn't let some random guy mess with my pool stroke anymore than I'd let some random guy try and adjust my golf swing.
If you're been playing for 30 years and you feel like your fundamentals could improve, why not improve them? Seems like it's something people should decide for themselves based on where their game is and what their goals are. Having a good coach evaluate you is a good thing. I was expecting my guy to shake his head and start over with me. Instead, I was doing it 95% right and I just needed a minor tweak to shake the cobwebs off. I'd still be randomly experimenting on my own if it wasn't for him.
It's funny. I saw SVB talk about his aiming system on a TAR broadcast. He spent a few minutes describing it, setup the shot, and promptly missed. I have no way of knowing but I'll bet that when the cameras went off, he spent a few minutes shooting that shot over and over again until he was drilling them into the center of the pocket, because that's what pros do. They know when you do something wrong, you'd better do it right a few dozen times to reinforce the right way of doing it. That's practicing fundamentals and we do it in every sport.
100% on board with this here. Good post.
I emboldened the last part, because I think some are under the impression that once good fundamentals are established, the balls will magically start falling into the pockets when they weren't previously. (ok, gross overstatment there, but indulge me for a moment).
When the pro's are continually practicing shots, (actual practice, not shooting the shot 5 or 6 times after a miss), the are not just learning to make the ball for that given shot. They are, every time they get down to shoot, checking to ensure that they are aligned properly, routine is the same, cueing the CB the same, and shooting in rhythm is the same. In short, they are re-enforcing the fundamentals that allow them to have the consistency of a professional player. For them, pocketing the ball is:
1) confirmation that the above were correct.
2) positive re-inforcement that doing those things will result in the desired result
3) helping with the visualization of the shot; both at address and seeing the ball fall in the hole.
Out of all of the three items listed above, 2 and 3 are most important to them, 3 more than 2. If they come to a situation in a match where they are faced with that shot, the fall back into the routine that was set during practice. They've pocketed that ball so many times, that the visualization comes very easy to them. There is no thinking about the alignment, thinking about the address, cueing, or stroke itself. They did all the thinking before, during practice.
Developing that "muscle memory", and I include the brain in this, to good, effective habits is what I consider good fundamentals for the more advanced players.
Of course, if you have habits ingrained which are negatively impacting your play, re-enforcing them in practice is only going to exacerbate them during match play. Build the solid base of fundamentals, re-enforce them through practice, and maintain them outside of practice during warm ups...should only take a few minutes to check them.
This is getting more into the "effective practice" side of the house, vice fundamentals. But I think one hand washes the other when discussing either of those subjects. Great fundamentals without re-enforcement through at least a modicum of practice won't really help as there won't be enough muscle memory for them to matter. Horrible fundamentals, (meaning poor habits), and much practice will lead to those habits becoming a full on hinderance to your ability to grow and improve as a player
Only in pool would people undermine the importance of technique...Sure, for some shots in pool you don't need perfect fundamentals, but to keep pocketing every shot you fundamentals must be repeatable, solid and sound.
There is some debate about what the perfect fundamentals look like, etc..I don't think everything that is tought as perfect, necessarily is...I have my own idea of what perfection is, as I suspect do most other people. I do know what shabby fundamentals look like. I see it almost every time I play, usually in the guys I beat, but every now and then you will get beaten by someone like that as well.
Here is a short anecdote: I've been playing with a guy who started playing the same time as me, or even slightly before. We were at a similar age when we started, and about equally (un)talented. I was maybe a hair better in the beginning, but after I really started focusing on my fundamentals I've shot way past him in development. Since we keep statistics I know that I win about 75% percent of all games in 9/10 ball (even with his break being much better than mine) and I generally win by 50 balls in a game to 125 in straight pool (long term average, of course he wins some as well). The only reason why he can even keep up to that standard is his tremendous pocketing ability. His pattern play and position play is appalling (considering how much he plays and his pocketing ability). Every day the gap gets bigger. At present the gap in 14.1 is probably closer to 125-60.
He knows as much about pool as me, but because of his lousy fundamentals he can't hit center ball cleanly, he can't control his cueball as well as he should, and his pocketing, though decent by any standard is slightly to inconsistent from day to day to make up for the other problems in his game. The guys still is probably at a high B level though. This is a guy that has been playing every day (unlike me) for over a decade. If he had really worked at his game in a systematic fashion he could have been close to "open-speed" by now. I've taken too many breaks in my play, sometimes not playing for 6 months at a time, to have a chance to achieve what he could have had a chance to. I mean, he has been playing everyday against some of the country's best players..I have only just recently gotten a chance to play regularly against people of this caliber, and I'm learning something every day!
Not everyone enjoy the same things. Some just enjoy the game, and hanging out in the pool hall. Nothing wrong with that, but if what you enjoy is improving your play and climbing the pool hall skill ladder, maybe even play the odd tournament now and then you'd better do some work as well as play!
There is some debate about what the perfect fundamentals look like, etc..I don't think everything that is tought as perfect, necessarily is...I have my own idea of what perfection is, as I suspect do most other people. I do know what shabby fundamentals look like. I see it almost every time I play, usually in the guys I beat, but every now and then you will get beaten by someone like that as well.
Here is a short anecdote: I've been playing with a guy who started playing the same time as me, or even slightly before. We were at a similar age when we started, and about equally (un)talented. I was maybe a hair better in the beginning, but after I really started focusing on my fundamentals I've shot way past him in development. Since we keep statistics I know that I win about 75% percent of all games in 9/10 ball (even with his break being much better than mine) and I generally win by 50 balls in a game to 125 in straight pool (long term average, of course he wins some as well). The only reason why he can even keep up to that standard is his tremendous pocketing ability. His pattern play and position play is appalling (considering how much he plays and his pocketing ability). Every day the gap gets bigger. At present the gap in 14.1 is probably closer to 125-60.
He knows as much about pool as me, but because of his lousy fundamentals he can't hit center ball cleanly, he can't control his cueball as well as he should, and his pocketing, though decent by any standard is slightly to inconsistent from day to day to make up for the other problems in his game. The guys still is probably at a high B level though. This is a guy that has been playing every day (unlike me) for over a decade. If he had really worked at his game in a systematic fashion he could have been close to "open-speed" by now. I've taken too many breaks in my play, sometimes not playing for 6 months at a time, to have a chance to achieve what he could have had a chance to. I mean, he has been playing everyday against some of the country's best players..I have only just recently gotten a chance to play regularly against people of this caliber, and I'm learning something every day!
Not everyone enjoy the same things. Some just enjoy the game, and hanging out in the pool hall. Nothing wrong with that, but if what you enjoy is improving your play and climbing the pool hall skill ladder, maybe even play the odd tournament now and then you'd better do some work as well as play!
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Hi Jaden,
I think that most understand that the main 'fundamental' is to move the stick straight so it hits the cue ball where intended & sends it onto where one want's it to go onto the object ball, just as I think your friend understood that the knife had to hit the target with the blade point vs the handle or flat.
I've coached & taught baseball pitching & hitting up to the young adult level & some middle school golf as well as football & basketball.
I'd say that one really has to tailor body fundamentals to the individual with the final resulting fundamental in mind just as you did with your friend & him throwing the knives.
In hitting a baseball or a golf ball it is rarely one adjustment that results in a fix unless all else is right & there is only one road block. That is rather rare. They usually come in at least pairs.
The reason I am saying that is because two(2) negatives can at times equal a positive.
I just this Thursday saw I young guy that regularly frequents the same hall that I do & he is playing very well for the time that he has been playing. I saw two 'fundamental flaws' just from his elbow to the cue. BUT... he is stroking very straight & pocketing rather difficult shots on a tight Diamond 9' table.
I wanted to mention something to him about it, but I did not.
I'm 5'9" short. He's about 6'4 or 5" tall.
If I were to tell him what he is doing 'wrong' in just that area without also knowing the other 'fault' located somewhere else it would almost assuredly mess him up. I did not have much opportunity to look elsewhere but nothing immediately stuck out.
I think a regular length cue is just rather short for him & he has made a bodily adjustment to accommodate that & that may be the cause of the two hand/arm issues.
Hence, he has his own innate fundamentals that are getting him to stroke straight.
Like in golf, the ball does not lie.
Best 2 Ya,
Rick