I don't agree with this at all being a problem. Will it happen in the beginning yes, but give it time. Some people I have been working with have made comments about thinking about all these things has ruined their game, as it did with me. This is 100% true.... for a little while. The example I give them is that it is like learning to drive a stick shift. At first you have all this information you are thinking of and trying to execute so you shift bad, can't shift during turns, kill it at lights, etc but over time it just becomes second nature and you do all those things without a problem. Why is that? Because the fundamentals of shifting have been solidified enough over time that you just naturally do it. The exact same will happen with your pool game regardless of that it is you are trying to learn.
Why get so caught up on fundamentals?
- Thread starter Flip_dat_Quarta
- Start date
I don't agree with this at all being a problem. Will it happen in the beginning yes, but give it time. Some people I have been working with have made comments about thinking about all these things has ruined their game, as it did with me. This is 100% true.... for a little while. The example I give them is that it is like learning to drive a stick shift. At first you have all this information you are thinking of and trying to execute so you shift bad, can't shift during turns, kill it at lights, etc but over time it just becomes second nature and you do all those things without a problem. Why is that? Because the fundamentals of shifting have been solidified enough over time that you just naturally do it. The exact same will happen with your pool game regardless of that it is you are trying to learn.
Yeah exactly...
I got into it a little bit with a good player friend of mine on facebook. I had mentioned that the level of knowledge you have to have to play top level pool is much higher than most people understand.
I also mentioned that you need to know what to focus on at the different stages of the stroke i.e. the pre shot routine and shot routine.
His comment was that you shouldn't be focusing on anything and that's only partially true.
Ideally in a competition situation, you would let the subconscious take over and guide your actions, but you have to GIVE your subconscious the tools to be able to do that.
And what happens when you get in a funk? I'll say one thing, while there are lights out players so to speak, i.e. players that play without thinking, they AREN'T going to be as consistent as deliberate players and here's why.
Yes, it is more difficult to become a top deliberate player. It takes more effort, more concentration etc; however, a deliberate player has something to fall back on when they get into a funk trying to play with their subconscious.
Also, the subconscious tends to go with what you are most used to doing. This is why when you finally figure out what is causing a funk it is typically a bad habit that you had been doing for years in the past as opposed to some new hitch that's developed in your stroke.
Jaden
I got into it a little bit with a good player friend of mine on facebook. I had mentioned that the level of knowledge you have to have to play top level pool is much higher than most people understand.
I also mentioned that you need to know what to focus on at the different stages of the stroke i.e. the pre shot routine and shot routine.
His comment was that you shouldn't be focusing on anything and that's only partially true.
Ideally in a competition situation, you would let the subconscious take over and guide your actions, but you have to GIVE your subconscious the tools to be able to do that.
And what happens when you get in a funk? I'll say one thing, while there are lights out players so to speak, i.e. players that play without thinking, they AREN'T going to be as consistent as deliberate players and here's why.
Yes, it is more difficult to become a top deliberate player. It takes more effort, more concentration etc; however, a deliberate player has something to fall back on when they get into a funk trying to play with their subconscious.
Also, the subconscious tends to go with what you are most used to doing. This is why when you finally figure out what is causing a funk it is typically a bad habit that you had been doing for years in the past as opposed to some new hitch that's developed in your stroke.
Jaden
There seem to be some in this thread who confuse thinking about the fundamentals with the actual application of fundamentals.
If you have to think about the fundamentals while you're down on a shot, then you haven't mastered them yet.
Most of the key fundamentals are programmed into performance so they never cross the players mind during execution. They are subconscious elements.
When was the last time you walked across a room and had to think about the fundamentals of walking?
Much like the foundation of a large structure....if your fundamentals are weak, then everything you've built upon those poor fundamentals will also be weak.
This is why many focus on the value of fundamentals.
If you have to think about the fundamentals while you're down on a shot, then you haven't mastered them yet.
Most of the key fundamentals are programmed into performance so they never cross the players mind during execution. They are subconscious elements.
When was the last time you walked across a room and had to think about the fundamentals of walking?
Much like the foundation of a large structure....if your fundamentals are weak, then everything you've built upon those poor fundamentals will also be weak.
This is why many focus on the value of fundamentals.
Here's an experiment....
Fill a cup up with coffee...
Walk holding it out in front of you and concentrate on it trying not to spill a drop....
Now, forget about the cup of coffee and just walk thinking about the destination that you are trying to reach...
You'll find you keep it more level and spill less by, NOT thinking about it.
But if you walk with it and don't concentrate on the cup, but still concentrate on NOT spilling it, you'll still spill it.
That's why I said, it's important for people to find the correct focal points throughout the preshot and shot routines that work best for THEM...
For some, it may be focusing on following through, for others, focusing on the OB CP, for others, bringing their forearm straight forward...
For some, it may be thinking about aunt jenny's cookies...Finding the correct focal points for YOU is IMO the final stage to playing your best pool...
Jaden
Fill a cup up with coffee...
Walk holding it out in front of you and concentrate on it trying not to spill a drop....
Now, forget about the cup of coffee and just walk thinking about the destination that you are trying to reach...
You'll find you keep it more level and spill less by, NOT thinking about it.
But if you walk with it and don't concentrate on the cup, but still concentrate on NOT spilling it, you'll still spill it.
That's why I said, it's important for people to find the correct focal points throughout the preshot and shot routines that work best for THEM...
For some, it may be focusing on following through, for others, focusing on the OB CP, for others, bringing their forearm straight forward...
For some, it may be thinking about aunt jenny's cookies...Finding the correct focal points for YOU is IMO the final stage to playing your best pool...
Jaden
Unconscious Incompetence- You don't know what you don't know.
Conscious Incompetence- You realize there's a lot you don't know.
Conscious Competence- You're getting there, but too much internal dialogue.
Unconscious Competence- What most work towards, depending on your definition of competent.
Conscious Incompetence- You realize there's a lot you don't know.
Conscious Competence- You're getting there, but too much internal dialogue.
Unconscious Competence- What most work towards, depending on your definition of competent.
Whenver Im playing somebody big on fundamentals; I make a point of jumping up a few times, walking into the shot sideways, one/two stroking. etc... Its more fun for me to win that way. Especially if I can get them thinking "How the fook did this guy beat me?
There are many ways to approach the game. Many champions do things the "wrong" way. You know the old saying - "Those who can do and those who can't teach"...
There are many ways to approach the game. Many champions do things the "wrong" way. You know the old saying - "Those who can do and those who can't teach"...
When you start out and don't know much, fundamentals are essential for developing a solid platform for shooting pool and developing a solid stroke, as well as building upon your level of skills.
As you advance, it is normal to personalize your stance and stroke to one's anatomical comfort......our bodies change, etc. At the same time, as we advance as a player, we are able to "work" the cue ball around the table and that sometimes involves changing one's bridge or stroke speed, etc.
Having said the aforementioned, the bottom-line is when your game starts to struggle, reverting to and reinforcing excellent fundamentals is the surest method of getting your game back on track again and to also advance your level of skills. Along the way, i.e., over years & decades, things change and we deviate from sound fundamentals......stance, bridge, head position & steadiness, grip, stroke pendelum, & backstroke & follow-thru, etc......all of this matters and when we deviate too much, well, our game becomes inconsistent and suffers...........fundamentals should be embraced and personalized but always respected........JMO.
Matt B.
As you advance, it is normal to personalize your stance and stroke to one's anatomical comfort......our bodies change, etc. At the same time, as we advance as a player, we are able to "work" the cue ball around the table and that sometimes involves changing one's bridge or stroke speed, etc.
Having said the aforementioned, the bottom-line is when your game starts to struggle, reverting to and reinforcing excellent fundamentals is the surest method of getting your game back on track again and to also advance your level of skills. Along the way, i.e., over years & decades, things change and we deviate from sound fundamentals......stance, bridge, head position & steadiness, grip, stroke pendelum, & backstroke & follow-thru, etc......all of this matters and when we deviate too much, well, our game becomes inconsistent and suffers...........fundamentals should be embraced and personalized but always respected........JMO.
Matt B.
Whenver Im playing somebody big on fundamentals; I make a point of jumping up a few times, walking into the shot sideways, one/two stroking. etc... Its more fun for me to win that way. Especially if I can get them thinking "How the fook did this guy beat me?
There are many ways to approach the game. Many champions do things the "wrong" way. You know the old saying - "Those who can do and those who can't teach"...
I always like playing expert chalkers myself. :thumbup:
Think of it this way...
Players who are caught up on their fundamentals, are rarely wrong to be worried about it. They probably DO have problems with fundamentals. They wouldn't be hung up on it otherwise. I never met someone with really textbook fundamentals who has no problem making balls, but still has some irrational hangup about them.
Even though pool is just for fun (for most of us), there's a difference between passing time and wasting time. Nobody likes to waste time. If you did some job at work that took hours, and some small part of it was wrong and the results suck, and now you gotta spend another couple of hours fixing it... you'd hate that, right?
Same deal in pool, nobody wants to spend dozens or hundreds of extra hours fixing some silly crap that should have been correct in the first place. They just want to move on to that other stuff you're talking about. But they can't, until the problem is fixed.
If you feel like they're overly worried and you you don't get it, maybe you are fortunate enough to have decent fundamentals already. Like a guy with good driving habits and a perfect record wondering why someone with 8 points gets all nervous every time a cop car appears in his rearview.
Players who are caught up on their fundamentals, are rarely wrong to be worried about it. They probably DO have problems with fundamentals. They wouldn't be hung up on it otherwise. I never met someone with really textbook fundamentals who has no problem making balls, but still has some irrational hangup about them.
Even though pool is just for fun (for most of us), there's a difference between passing time and wasting time. Nobody likes to waste time. If you did some job at work that took hours, and some small part of it was wrong and the results suck, and now you gotta spend another couple of hours fixing it... you'd hate that, right?
Same deal in pool, nobody wants to spend dozens or hundreds of extra hours fixing some silly crap that should have been correct in the first place. They just want to move on to that other stuff you're talking about. But they can't, until the problem is fixed.
If you feel like they're overly worried and you you don't get it, maybe you are fortunate enough to have decent fundamentals already. Like a guy with good driving habits and a perfect record wondering why someone with 8 points gets all nervous every time a cop car appears in his rearview.
I tend to believe that if pros and top pros feel the need to evaluate or improve their fundamentals, surely the rest of us could benefit from tightening a few things up.
socalcraigster
Registered
Fundamentals and practice is the core of the game. Ignore at your own peril. I am an average player who beats "better" players often because they can't hit center ball and choke on long shots.
fundamentals
A child learns to crawl, then to walk, then to run. The proper way to learn is from the simple to the more complex.
A basketball player that can't make a free throw, usually has poor fundamentals.
Not having a solid, comfortable stance and an accurate stroke in pool makes learning anything more advanced even more difficult.
This just might be why professional players tend to have sound fundamentals.
___
Not long ago, I saw an "instructor" giving lessons to a teenager. He spent almost all the time telling the student what kind of spin to use to move the cue ball around the table. Meanwhile, the lad gripped the cue AHEAD of the balance point (in other words way too far forward with his grip hand), and his progress was painfully slow. He needed to learn fundamentals, but they weren't stressed.
A child learns to crawl, then to walk, then to run. The proper way to learn is from the simple to the more complex.
A basketball player that can't make a free throw, usually has poor fundamentals.
Not having a solid, comfortable stance and an accurate stroke in pool makes learning anything more advanced even more difficult.
This just might be why professional players tend to have sound fundamentals.
___
Not long ago, I saw an "instructor" giving lessons to a teenager. He spent almost all the time telling the student what kind of spin to use to move the cue ball around the table. Meanwhile, the lad gripped the cue AHEAD of the balance point (in other words way too far forward with his grip hand), and his progress was painfully slow. He needed to learn fundamentals, but they weren't stressed.
I agree with OP almost 100%. I used to be fundamental oriented player. I was quite strong back then and my stroke was superior vs. Most of players. It was 10+ years. Finally I kinda put fundamentals totally out of my head and started just play and my game went to another level.. I'm still a lot stronger player today even I got now flaws in my stroke.
It makes for a boring conversation, but the real answer is that everyone is different and needs to critically examine their own game and identify their personal weaknesses and come up with a plan to improve.
Some people will have crappy fundamentals, even after years of playing, and those bad fundamentals can be holding them back. (Just because they're ingrained doesn't mean they are any good.)
Other people will need to work on speed control and position play.
Still others fold under pressure and need to play more tournaments or money matches.
So yeah... The Ultimate Secret of Pool is... figure out what you suck at and fix it.
Some people will have crappy fundamentals, even after years of playing, and those bad fundamentals can be holding them back. (Just because they're ingrained doesn't mean they are any good.)
Other people will need to work on speed control and position play.
Still others fold under pressure and need to play more tournaments or money matches.
So yeah... The Ultimate Secret of Pool is... figure out what you suck at and fix it.
We all have the same problem regardless of how well we play.....we miss too many balls.
Sure but the reason we miss too many balls is different for each of us.