It seems every week I get in multiple arguments with the other team about a hit that was clearly bad but the other shooter/team somehow didn't see it (maybe "didn't see it" should be in quotation marks?). I just don't get whats so hard about recognizing the fact the fact the wrong ball was hit first. I have 20/20 vision from LASIK but are peoples eyes really that bad? Frustrated.
Why is it so hard for league players to recognize bad hits?
- Thread starter Magyar19
- Start date
I've never encountered this and I even play in the APA which is supposedly a hotspot for bad mannered and bad pool players. If there's any ball besides their object ball just call a high level player from another team to watch the hit
I don't understand why people are expecting the world of less experienced and knowledgeable players, I feel like the next one is going to be "Why don't C player run more racks?"
I feel you pain, I play with a guy who doesn't know what a double hit is even quit on a game once but it is what it is. Find ways to have less stress at the table my friend, call someone to watch at the most remote possibility of a bad hit and make it someone they can't argue with.
I feel you pain, I play with a guy who doesn't know what a double hit is even quit on a game once but it is what it is. Find ways to have less stress at the table my friend, call someone to watch at the most remote possibility of a bad hit and make it someone they can't argue with.
Exactly:thumbup:
In the 5 years I have been playing apa I have encountered 2 people that are habitual deniers' of bad hits . Anytime I face these 2 people during regular session I always tell them I want an observer during any close shot.
During regular session every one else gets the benefit of the doubt on a bad hit unless they show signs of being a habitual denier also. To me ....regular session just is not worth arguing over whether it was a good shot or not. I just want to have a good time ��.
However playoffs or higher level tournaments are completely serious to me. I always ....let me repeat... I always call for an observer anytime I think its a situation where my opponent may make a bad hit.i don't care if my opponent gets upset or not that I called for an observer. This way there will be no question on whether it was a bad hit or not.
I also call for an observer on my shot even if my opponent does not...that way he will have no doubt whether I made a bad hit or not.
It may seem lil its a pain in the ass to take these measures but I look at it this way. It's better to prevent an argument over a shot than to try to settle an argument after the shot is over.
I play in the UPA which is supposed to be better players and they are the worst at not realizing what is a good hit or not. Every night at least 15-20 bad hits sneak thru the cracks. It's so frustrating but I seem to be the only 1 that cares.
Wtf? Are you playing with blind people? I don't see that many missed fouls in an entire year.
There are a lot of people on my APA division who don't know any better when they observe or perform a double hit, but what exactly are you expecting of people who shoot pool a relaxing hobby once a week?
Plain & simple
people see what they want to see.
New session . same league, but a new team. It is a young team full of eager players for a change. They all rate 4-5 in APA and have been practicing almost every day at the room.
Played them last weekend. When my opp got down 5-6 balls things changed a little from the nice attitude. I opted to play a safe from up table down to the foot and sent the 4 ball to the long rail behind the 7 ball. All of a sudden (after I watched both the cue ball and the 4 ball kiss the rail and stop), my opp says "neither ball hit the rail !!" I was going to tell him I just watched them both bounce off of their respective rails (with a degree of satisfaction, I might add), but I just told him "Fine ! Ball in hand!" I figured why argue with a new player ?
I even left him with a chance to win in the last rack, (7 balls to get him to his 31) and he choked.
people see what they want to see.
New session . same league, but a new team. It is a young team full of eager players for a change. They all rate 4-5 in APA and have been practicing almost every day at the room.
Played them last weekend. When my opp got down 5-6 balls things changed a little from the nice attitude. I opted to play a safe from up table down to the foot and sent the 4 ball to the long rail behind the 7 ball. All of a sudden (after I watched both the cue ball and the 4 ball kiss the rail and stop), my opp says "neither ball hit the rail !!" I was going to tell him I just watched them both bounce off of their respective rails (with a degree of satisfaction, I might add), but I just told him "Fine ! Ball in hand!" I figured why argue with a new player ?
I even left him with a chance to win in the last rack, (7 balls to get him to his 31) and he choked.
I hear from league members around the US and Canada all the time about sandbaggers, so it's not a stretch to imagine cheaters or the weak-minded protesting their good (bad) hits. Call a ref over on a shot where one of these people is coming close to two or more balls. Call the ref before as there is nothing that may be done following the shot.
Your league is chock full of cheaters that have no character. The shooter must call the foul on himself if a ref is not there to witness it. If you cannot call a foul on yourself you'll only play a match with me once and I'll make sure word subtly gets out. All you have is your reputation in the pool world.
because the league veteran who has been shooting in APA for 15 years and is still an APA 4 obviously has no inclination of actually improving in pool and thinks that just because he shoots 2 matches a week that it is a lot, when in reality, thats about 45 mins worth of pool playing a week.
They have no idea what they are looking for nor do they know how the balls should react, nor do they give a shit.
They have no idea what they are looking for nor do they know how the balls should react, nor do they give a shit.
Calling bad hits
Most players (and even some "instructors") are unaware of a simple trick for calling hits.
When watching a questionable shot, focus on the object balls and NOT the cue ball.
In other words instead of watching something moving, look at the stationary object balls. Makes calling hits MUCH easier!
A good analogous example of this principle can be observed in tennis. If you watch the ball on a serve, it's very difficult to make a line call. The referee and line judges look at the line, not the ball!
Most players (and even some "instructors") are unaware of a simple trick for calling hits.
When watching a questionable shot, focus on the object balls and NOT the cue ball.
In other words instead of watching something moving, look at the stationary object balls. Makes calling hits MUCH easier!
A good analogous example of this principle can be observed in tennis. If you watch the ball on a serve, it's very difficult to make a line call. The referee and line judges look at the line, not the ball!
- There's a psychological thing. It's not that they're lying exactly...
it's that their brain WANTS to see a certain result so that's what they think they see.
It's very rare someone will try to lie about something that's 100% obvious, right in front of a dozen witnesses.
- There's a rule in place that says debatable hits go to the shooter. I read something once that struck me...
"90% sure is the same thing as not sure at all". You're either positive a foul occurred or you're not.
If there's 10% doubt, it goes to the shooter.
- People get too caught up in "if the balls moved this way instead of that way, it's a foul"...
in reality, a good hit and a bad hit can make very similar results.
For example the cue ball can barely scrape an illegal ball, hit the intended ball squarely .01 seconds later,
and it's a bad hit. Or a cue ball can hit the good ball squarely, then carom sideways a bit and barely scrape the back
of the bad ball. In both cases the bad ball barely moves, the good ball got hit full. But you'll hear people say
something like "if he hit the wrong ball first it woulda moved a lot further!"
it's that their brain WANTS to see a certain result so that's what they think they see.
It's very rare someone will try to lie about something that's 100% obvious, right in front of a dozen witnesses.
- There's a rule in place that says debatable hits go to the shooter. I read something once that struck me...
"90% sure is the same thing as not sure at all". You're either positive a foul occurred or you're not.
If there's 10% doubt, it goes to the shooter.
- People get too caught up in "if the balls moved this way instead of that way, it's a foul"...
in reality, a good hit and a bad hit can make very similar results.
For example the cue ball can barely scrape an illegal ball, hit the intended ball squarely .01 seconds later,
and it's a bad hit. Or a cue ball can hit the good ball squarely, then carom sideways a bit and barely scrape the back
of the bad ball. In both cases the bad ball barely moves, the good ball got hit full. But you'll hear people say
something like "if he hit the wrong ball first it woulda moved a lot further!"
Thus throwing out EVERY piece of knowledge. There is no such thing as 100% sure. That just isn't how the mathematics works.
Thank you kindly.
My personal rule, if I'm the shooter and the hit will be close, I'll ask my opponent if they want to have someone watch the hit/shot.
Usually the first time I play someone (during regular season), I try to assess their honesty as well. I would expect my opponent to do the same (as above) when it comes to close hits.
The key is addressing the potential problem before it happens. How many times has your opponent dashed to the other side of the table to shoot the ball before you even say anything ?
My go to line (and you always have to be watching the game), "Depending on what you shoot, I may want someone to watch the hit".
In lieu of a neutral observer, if the hit is close and/or questionable, I look to my opponent to make the correct call. In close cases, where I myself can't be 100%, I'll defer to my opponent. If he/she picks up the cueball and/or says, "Ball In hand", no harm no foul (barring that obvious pun).
All that said, the first time I see an obvious foul (when he/she and I KNOW my ball was hit first), and my opponent doesn't call it, from that point forward anything that might be close gets an extra set of eyes.
Recent case in point: A player in my league (Paul) is notorious for these kind of hits as well as push shots and double hits. In my own games as well as other players.
"Split hit goes to the shooter" is his go-to when anyone questions the shot afterwards.
So I'm playing Paul a couple weeks ago. Where his cue ball ends up, my ball is roughly 30% in the way of his. He has two other good shots, but no easy way to get back to the shot with my ball in the way.
If he shoots that shot, for his ball to drop, he would have to hit my ball first and follow the cue ball...
Me: "Depending on what you shoot, I might want someone to watch the hit."
Paul: "Hmph... Ten in the corner."
Me: "Ok, lemme grab Tim (my captain) or Will (his)"
Paul: "What, it's not close."
Me: "Close enough for there to be a question."
Paul: "Split hit goes to the shooter."
Me: "I know, and we'll get someone to watch the hit."
Paul: "What, you don't trust me ?"
Usually the first time I play someone (during regular season), I try to assess their honesty as well. I would expect my opponent to do the same (as above) when it comes to close hits.
The key is addressing the potential problem before it happens. How many times has your opponent dashed to the other side of the table to shoot the ball before you even say anything ?
My go to line (and you always have to be watching the game), "Depending on what you shoot, I may want someone to watch the hit".
In lieu of a neutral observer, if the hit is close and/or questionable, I look to my opponent to make the correct call. In close cases, where I myself can't be 100%, I'll defer to my opponent. If he/she picks up the cueball and/or says, "Ball In hand", no harm no foul (barring that obvious pun).
All that said, the first time I see an obvious foul (when he/she and I KNOW my ball was hit first), and my opponent doesn't call it, from that point forward anything that might be close gets an extra set of eyes.
Recent case in point: A player in my league (Paul) is notorious for these kind of hits as well as push shots and double hits. In my own games as well as other players.
"Split hit goes to the shooter" is his go-to when anyone questions the shot afterwards.
So I'm playing Paul a couple weeks ago. Where his cue ball ends up, my ball is roughly 30% in the way of his. He has two other good shots, but no easy way to get back to the shot with my ball in the way.
If he shoots that shot, for his ball to drop, he would have to hit my ball first and follow the cue ball...
Me: "Depending on what you shoot, I might want someone to watch the hit."
Paul: "Hmph... Ten in the corner."
Me: "Ok, lemme grab Tim (my captain) or Will (his)"
Paul: "What, it's not close."
Me: "Close enough for there to be a question."
Paul: "Split hit goes to the shooter."
Me: "I know, and we'll get someone to watch the hit."
Paul: "What, you don't trust me ?"
My personal rule, if I'm the shooter and the hit will be close, I'll ask my opponent if they want to have someone watch the hit/shot.
Usually the first time I play someone (during regular season), I try to assess their honesty as well. I would expect my opponent to do the same (as above) when it comes to close hits.
The key is addressing the potential problem before it happens. How many times has your opponent dashed to the other side of the table to shoot the ball before you even say anything ?
My go to line (and you always have to be watching the game), "Depending on what you shoot, I may want someone to watch the hit".
In lieu of a neutral observer, if the hit is close and/or questionable, I look to my opponent to make the correct call. In close cases, where I myself can't be 100%, I'll defer to my opponent. If he/she picks up the cueball and/or says, "Ball In hand", no harm no foul (barring that obvious pun).
All that said, the first time I see an obvious foul (when he/she and I KNOW my ball was hit first), and my opponent doesn't call it, from that point forward anything that might be close gets an extra set of eyes.
Recent case in point: A player in my league (Paul) is notorious for these kind of hits as well as push shots and double hits. In my own games as well as other players.
"Split hit goes to the shooter" is his go-to when anyone questions the shot afterwards.
So I'm playing Paul a couple weeks ago. Where his cue ball ends up, my ball is roughly 30% in the way of his. He has two other good shots, but no easy way to get back to the shot with my ball in the way.
If he shoots that shot, for his ball to drop, he would have to hit my ball first and follow the cue ball...
Me: "Depending on what you shoot, I might want someone to watch the hit."
Paul: "Hmph... Ten in the corner."
Me: "Ok, lemme grab Tim (my captain) or Will (his)"
Paul: "What, it's not close."
Me: "Close enough for there to be a question."
Paul: "Split hit goes to the shooter."
Me: "I know, and we'll get someone to watch the hit."
Paul: "What, you don't trust me ?"
This is the way to do it. If everyone did this, there wouldn't be any issues. When I'm done playing a person they can say a lot of things about me, but, to say I cheated them in any way absolutely isn't one of them.
I think the first thing you have to realize about being a league player is that if you don't protect yourself by having an independent, uninterested third party watch the shot then the shooter gets to make the call and it nobodies fault but your own. There's nothing to argue about, I believe that in most leagues that's the rule, and as well - it's a league night, is it really worth arguing about?
I think the large part of what you're describing is that (first) most times players aren't very careful about who they might ask to watch the shot. You'd probably like an experienced player to watch, someone that knows to focus and what to focus on. and (second) I think the majority of league players aren't able to think it through and don't know what a bad hit might look like anyway or even where to watch from. If I'm called to watch a shot and I don't instantly recognize what should happen if it's a good hit or a bad hit, or if my mind is somewhere else I'll have the shooter wait a moment so I can focus and think it through first and find my best perspective. A lot of league players simply don't have the experience, insight, or interest to learn what a good hit / bad hit might look like, it's simply not a part of their game