I do the same. If my opponent chooses not to do so, it's his problem, not mine. Honesty is its own reward...
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Why is it so hard for league players to recognize bad hits?
- Thread starter Magyar19
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I do the same. If my opponent chooses not to do so, it's his problem, not mine. Honesty is its own reward...
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It's not 20/20 vision...Go to DR Dave's site and take the visual referee test. If you get 90% correct on the first try, you are doing great.
You can download the test and take it to you league players...you will be a hero.
When I am shooting if there is a close shot I will tell my opponent how I plan to shoot the shot and then I leave it up to him if he wants to have someone watch the shot. The only time I may not call a foul on my self is if the cue ball hits my opponents ball on the way to my ball, one of those hits where your opponents ball does not even move but just wiggles a little bit in its spot, I think I had that happen twice to me. Because I was looking at my target I never seen my opponents ball wiggle. I also fouled by grabbing the cue ball once cause I thought I had BIH. Opponent was kicking at his ball, his ball never rolled, just wiggled, unfortunately I did not see the wiggle but my opponent and team mates did. It was a night when the jukebox was very loud otherwise I would have confirmed I had BIH before grabbing the ball.
Nothing to do with math, "100% sure" in this context is an opinion. Not a mathematical proof.
The opinion can actually be wrong -
I can be 100% sure I saw a good hit when in fact it was a foul.
But the point is, if there's uncertainty, you give it to the shooter.
If you have a "piece of knowledge" that makes you 100% positive you saw a foul, call it.
If you have a "piece of knowledge" that makes it likely you saw a foul,
but you aren't willing to say "I'm absolutely positive that's a foul" then you can't call it.
(or you can try, but expect some debate)
Agreeing beforehand is a good idea if the shot allows for it.
Some situations are no-brainers ("if the six ball moves at all it's a foul")
Other situations, like split hits, don't allow for this.
Like here, both balls are going the same direction whether it's a good hit or not.
I agree with this and the post that it references. I also think that sometimes as the shooter you are NOT in the best position to be able to judge the hit. I certainly know when I have double hit the CB, but if I'm playing to lay up on the bottom rail to an almost frozen ball, I am in a terrible position to know if the OB hit the rail.
I am lucky, in that my league is an in house league so I tend to know all of the players. My usual approach is to pick a better player from the opposing team who I think is honest and let him or her watch the hit. I have never (to my knowledge) had them call a foul when I believe I did not foul.
If it were playoffs, I might call a disinterested observer, but if I know and trust their good players enough, I may not and just go with my usual routine.
Gideon
Very simple, people have a answer that they want to hear. If you don't tell them that answer then you are wrong.
I'm an APA rep on my league night. My teammate has a feature on his iPhone that can record and play back in slow motion. No disputing that.
I'm an APA rep on my league night. My teammate has a feature on his iPhone that can record and play back in slow motion. No disputing that.
One of the major problems is that your teammates can't talk to one another during a match & the player themselves has to call a timeout, the team captain cannot. So there are so many bad hits and the other player either misses a shot or they argue about a hit and only the 2 players can make the call. The shooter always get the benefit of doubt. Then people make a bad hit a never honestly tell the guy it's bih. It's ridiculous and I told the LO things need to change, especially when it comes to finishing the season and a match is on the line for money.
Another huge issue is the push foul. No one in the league knows about it, I see many every week.
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Hope this isn't considered off topic but a question for you guys and gals that have played longer..
How do you approach an opponent about a bad hit or double hit? I seen a guy do it twice last week and just let it go. He wasn't that great, obviously didn't know the rules well but it was an obvious double hit to me and I know if I had said something he would have no idea what I was talking about. Should I have explained afterwards, called the foul and explain or how should I handle it?
This was just during league and I don't care all that much about league.
How do you approach an opponent about a bad hit or double hit? I seen a guy do it twice last week and just let it go. He wasn't that great, obviously didn't know the rules well but it was an obvious double hit to me and I know if I had said something he would have no idea what I was talking about. Should I have explained afterwards, called the foul and explain or how should I handle it?
This was just during league and I don't care all that much about league.
If this is someone who you're going to be around for a while, suggest the rules quiz above. Anyone who has a real interest in pool will enjoy the quiz.
This is a whole new problem, I have never seen a rule from the APA that addresses instant replays. It's been my experience that if a feature or piece of equipment isn't available to everyone then it wouldn't be considered, such as an instant replay device. Generally, within the APA I think the the rule says that equipment is permissible if it is manufactured specifically for pocket billiards, with the exception of a mechanical cue, jump cue, laser device, and a couple of other things that escape me at the moment. The iPhone isn't made for billiards, but if the feature that allows the slo-mo viewing is made specifically for billiards then that's something else, but I would guess that's it's just a general feature included in the phone software package or as part of an app. I would submit that viewing a replay of a shot on an iPhone or any video recording device for the purposes of making a legal or not legal call in an APA match is operating outside of the rules and at this particular moment video replay is not permissible in the APA.
Interesting issue though. With more and more features becoming available on cell phones and technology advancing the way it is this is probably something that needs to be addressed not only by the APA but by all leagues. I would think that until then this stuff, no matter how unreliable, is left to the human eye.
There's a recent thread with Oliver Ortman and Francisco Bustemonte that shows a really close hit, even viewing the replay we really couldn't come to a consensus as to the legality of that hit, and this whole idea of "split-hit" to me that doesn't exist. If it's just to close to call then it's likely bad
Banks
Banned
For weekly stuff, i will either tell the player or the captain what happened after the match or night is over. If they don't have it down by the tournaments, it's going to suck for them.
I would normally just say so, but I would rarely offer any argument regarding the legality of a hit or shot. If I think it's going to be close or if there is a chance for a foul I would have a 3rd party watch. If I fail to do that then it's really my fault and I must accept what the shooter might call no matter how much I might disagree. If I'm asked why I might get into the science of good or bad, but if I say, "Hey, I think that was a bad hit" and the response is "No, it wasn't". That leaves little room for debate. In a tournament where there might be money or position on the line I would never leave it to the other player, sometimes money or position can make some people a little less than honest or it can skew someones judgement, know what I mean? :smile:
There be the answer.
I'm guessing anyone at a tournament would have called a ref over because both of these instances were him being less than a chalk length between the ob and the cb and he did try to raise his cue to get a clean hit but it was nowhere close either time.
For some reason there are a lot of people around here that think just because you elevate the butt of the cue it's a clean hit not even thinking about what the intention of raising the cue is.
I don't sweat it during league because it's practice time and I've struggled a number of times with "should I tell them or let it go" type of deals. I wouldn't call the foul because it's obvious he didn't know so if I was going to say anything I should explain it before the shot because I don't want to turn him off to pool by being a rule stickler but I know tournament time and even some teams in the league would really force the issue.
^^^^^^^^^^^^ this
You missed my point. There is no way to be 100% sure, because there is no such thing. It is impossible, like dividing by zero. The rule becomes effectively, give it to the shooter.
Like here, both balls are going the same direction whether it's a good hit or not.
You do realize that the CUE ball will go in completely different directions based on which ball is hit first, don't you? Try it.
Thank you kindly.
The diagram is bad because the balls are too large. But if the balls are set up so they both are struck when the cue ball is on the spot and they both go in as shown, then it is more or less impossible to tell which was struck first for a pretty close hit.
Freeze the two object balls together and it's easy to tell which was struck first.
I sometimes get called over to watch a hit in league, and the only thing I struggle with sometimes is in calling a double hit or push shot. Theoretically I *know* what to look for, e.g. how the CB moves following contact, or the sound of the double hit, but sometimes with the background noise I don't hear it, or visually it's borderline to me. And I'm very reluctant to call a bad hit when I don't feel positive about it, which inevitably leads to someone crying about how it was "obviously" a double hit.
One thing that I intend to start doing is using my phone to video the shot. Tony Robles has an app on his phone that I've seen him use in his tournaments when he watches a hit, it lets him replay in HD slo-mo or frame-by-frame if there's any question. I can't remember the name of the app he uses, but there's several "coaching" apps in that category.
One thing that I intend to start doing is using my phone to video the shot. Tony Robles has an app on his phone that I've seen him use in his tournaments when he watches a hit, it lets him replay in HD slo-mo or frame-by-frame if there's any question. I can't remember the name of the app he uses, but there's several "coaching" apps in that category.
It doens't take good eyes to recognize bad hits, it take knowledge, understanding, and honesty. The honesty thing is tough to change, but for people who want or need the knowledge and understanding, the videos and resources on the following page can be extremely helpful:
first-contact legal hit detection
double hit detection and avoidance
Pool Rules Quiz
I wish every league players (and refs) were required to view these videos and resources. If that were the case, there would most certainly be better calls and fewer arguments.
Regards,
Dave