Why is Ivory still considered an ok material in the pool world

zpele

zpele

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There is so much documentation about how bad the ivory trade is for elephants and yet we in the pool world still consider it a plus to have in a cue. The uncomfortable question for many people here is, 'why when there are so many other materials that simulate Ivory is there a demand for the material in cues?'

I understand that some people might like what Ivory does to a cues hit but I don't understand why that is justification. I'm not an animal activist by any stretch of the imagination but when the demand for this material is quickly leading to the literal extinction of these animals I find it hard to imagine that good people would be able to turn a blind eye. I know the majority of people that play this sport are good people so I am curious why Ivory is still a highly sought after material when it has a very direct impact on not only the elephant population but the ecosystem elephants live in.

I might get blasted because of this post but I really am unsure and wanted to know if there are any intelligent and justifiable reasons for the demand of Ivory. I understand antique Ivory in old cues- what I'm more looking at and wondering about is the use of Ivory in new cue construction.
 
Holly

I recently saw a cue built with Holly in it. It was stunning and the cue hit great. I would opt for Holly if I were building a cue. I do however own a cue with a lot of Ivory in it. I would not have one built with Ivory in it though. I sort of like elephants and like the idea of keeping them living. I really don't like Ivory ferrules they squirt a bit more than I like.
 
I'm pretty sure 99.9% of ivory used in cues is pre-ban legal stuff or mastodon ivory, so if you understand antique ivory in old cues, you should also understand that pretty much all ivory used in cues is antique ivory.
 
Masayoshi said:
I'm pretty sure 99.9% of ivory used in cues is pre-ban legal stuff or mastodon ivory, so if you understand antique ivory in old cues, you should also understand that pretty much all ivory used in cues is antique ivory.
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^^^^^^ This
 
Personally.....It Became a Calendar Urgency.....AB-96.

I have my last 2 cues being made.........completion is late Spring 2016........the pending ivory ban enactment in California means that I won't be able to order or purchase any more cues with ivory. I am not heartbroken over this, although I think the ban is unfair and stupid. The ivory ban is going to save me tens of thousnads of dollars because I am addicted to certain design custom pool cues.......I could see myself dropping another $15-20k before I expire. However, the ivory ban means I cannot buy any more cues after next summer so I am going to save money in that sense.

I really would like to have ordered another fancy custom from Ed Prewitt but that's now impossible since I have no intentions of relocating. Heck, I am not even able to order additional shafts come next summer so I purposefully ordered more cues a few months ago so I could beat the 7/1/16 enactment. Both customs have with ivory ferrules, joints, inlays, & one has a ivory buttcap. As inlay material, I suppose juma or something else could be substituted but when it comes to ferrules or cue joints, the properties exhibited by ivory are distinct and different from resins and other synthetics. I've heard that Cape Buffalo Horn is supposedly very similar but I've never tried it. I've found that lighter weight cues play different with ivory ferrules and flat ivory cue joints than the same type cues weighing over 19 ounces with piloted steel joints.

Why use ivory in lieu of the ban and the endangered species act? As stated earlier...........because there is legal ivory and plenty of it here in the USA and the law species that pre-ban ivory is still legal.......California's new law is just stupid and so is the Oregon law. So I ordered as many customs as I could before the new ban gets enacted.......I'll be almost 70 when my two customs are completed and I have to do a 10% mandatory IRA withdrawal starting next year. That's why I ordered more customs.......I am not in need of even touching my IRA but since the law says I must, might as well get my last ivory laden cues before the CA ivory ban gets enacted.....it's less than 9 months away.

Matt B.
 
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336Robin said:
I recently saw a cue built with Holly in it. It was stunning and the cue hit great. I would opt for Holly if I were building a cue. I do however own a cue with a lot of Ivory in it. I would not have one built with Ivory in it though. I sort of like elephants and like the idea of keeping them living. I really don't like Ivory ferrules they squirt a bit more than I like.
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I had a Tuxedo Cue built by Tom Coker 10 years ago
with lots of Holly and No Ivory. Everyone who looked
at that Cue was amazed when I said there was No
Ivory in it. Absolutely Stunning.

Note: I still own high-end Cues with plenty of Ivory,
but wouldn't order another one.
I, too, have a fondness for Elephants.
 
fish2 said:
Where did you get this 99% figure ?
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What are u the ivory police ,, anyone who knows anything knows cue makers have plenty of ivory it's no secret ,, this is just another case of bleeding hearts being ill informed of the facts before they act , No one , not one wants to see elephants poached for illegal ivory but thier market is not selling to cue makers , book it Danno


1
 
I honestly don't think the ivory trade would take a hit should people stop putting ivory in cues, that's why.
Now let's look at all the other things that you do use in your life that is more directly affected by your consumption. What, no petitions?
 
7forlife said:
I honestly don't think the ivory trade would take a hit should people stop putting ivory in cues, that's why.
Now let's look at all the other things that you do use in your life that is more directly affected by your consumption. What, no petitions?
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Defensive and ignorant answer- not what I'm looking for.

As to the other arguments if it is true that most cue makers have stockpiles of antique Ivory then I retract my issue with it and that is exactly the type of argument I'm looking for. I have no issue with antique Ivory but I'm curious if there is actual proof that the statement is true or assumed.

I'm curious why people think the Ivory ban is stupid. I know the pros to it (cutting down on illegal ivory trade) but I do not know why it is stupid in a logical sense. If the pros of the ban outweigh the personal gains that are not allowed because of it (for example- 'I think it's stupid because I can't get my cue' or a similar argument) then I see fail to see the lack of merit the ban would represent.
 
IMHO, there is zero need for ivory to be used in cues, other than to raise the price and supposed quality. Schon used to refer to ivory as a 'high integrity' material. To me its nothing more than a status symbol to be able to say, "Hey, look what I own..."

There are several plastics, bones and some woods (holly was mentioned), that mimic the look of ivory, and if you had an unscrupulous cue maker that decided to use an alternate material, most people would never know. Most of the ways of testing ivory involve being able to touch it, and unless you want to destroy the finish to get to it.... you wont know for sure. You can use a black light, but black light cant tell a difference between ivory and bone, only ivory vs synthetics, so again, it could be replaced by cow bone and most people would never be the wiser.

On the subject of the ban, Im still willfully ignorant on several points, so I wont give my opinion there, other than to say that Ive read a lot of what Thomas Wayne has written on the subject, and his facts and opinions are pretty much spot on as far as Im concerned.
 
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There has been a distinct and growing trend over the last 10 years or so for some cue makers and buyers to avoid using or ordering ivory. There are many acceptable substitutes that perform better. Ivory is brittle, expensive, in some cases undocumented or illegal and prone to chipping and cracking. Plus many of us agree that by not ordering, using or buying ivory, we are not inadvertently contributing to the illegal trade.

That being said, there are many older existing cues that have legal ivory in them, and those should not be restricted because of paperwork issues. In my opinion, it is up to the cue maker to discourage the use in new cues. High end cues tend to use ivory. If the cue makers refuse to use it (many do) it will help matters. My JW playing cue has an ivory joint and butt. I did not "boycott" the cue when I bought it many years back (it was a resale anyway).

As of now ivory may still add to a cue's marketability, but that may change in the near future as more people avoid it.
 
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Chuck Fields said:
IMHO, there is zero need for ivory to be used in cues, other than to raise the price and supposed quality. Schon used to refer to ivory as a 'high integrity' material. To me its nothing more than a status symbol to be able to say, "Hey, look what I own..."
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Chuck's post nailed it. Here's a pretty good argument on the "value" issue. Many Schon's are loaded with ivory and go for $500 or $600 on ebay. If a Szamboti had an alternative ivory joint, I don't think it would scare off too many buyers.

I wish my cue had alternative ivory- I could take it to Canada and overseas with me on trips without worry about seizure at customs.
 
:grin: far from it, got a couple of cues with ivory joints/butt caps/ inlays etc in them.... just questioning the 99 %


one stroke said:
What are u the ivory police ,, anyone who knows anything knows cue makers have plenty of ivory it's no secret ,, this is just another case of bleeding hearts being ill informed of the facts before they act , No one , not one wants to see elephants poached for illegal ivory but thier market is not selling to cue makers , book it Danno


1
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Sorry but there is no alternative material that looks like ivory. Ivory has a grain pattern that as far as i know has not been duplicated. Ivory from a far looks just like a white plastic, but up close it has a weaving pattern.

Chuck Fields said:
There are several plastics, bones and some woods (holly was mentioned), that mimic the look of ivory, and if you had an unscrupulous cue maker that decided to use an alternate material, most people would never know.
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