Why is pool like it is?

Keith Jawahir

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Many of us have known discrimination of one type or another. Growing up as a minority you basically had a stereotype pasted to your forehead and not many people could look beyond that. As pool players we're labeled "shark" or "hustler" and that all walks hand in hand with the thought that all pool players are gamblers and alcoholics or worse. Never mind that some our biggest American Heroes have had problems that make pool players look like angels. Pete Rose and Michael Jordan have their own issues or that Babe Ruth had some habits that could kill a horse and Ty Cobb was a known bigot. There are more paternity suites in the NFL, NBA, MLB than you can shake a stick at. Rapists, Drunks, Gang members, fathers of multiple children from multiple women, these are just some of the issues that plague major sports. But still, they continue to turn out "Roll models", "Heroes", and huge profit. Pool can't even afford to always pay it's event winners.
Back to the discrimination thing - some years ago I was a reasonably high level athlete. But as , I competed I blew out knees, and ankles, had different surgeries, and it was apparent that I had to find a different way to be competitive if I still wanted to be so I was introduced to pool. I had been playing for several months and getting better and one day I was listening to a local sports talk show hosted by (now national personality) Craig Carton and the topic was, "Name some great players in their respective sport that never became world champions". They talked about some Race car drivers, golfers, even bowlers. So I called and (I thought cleverly) mentioned Rudolph Wanderone. He asked who that was, and I told him Minnesota Fats. He came right back at me that pool was not a sport and how could I be so ignorant to think so and he went on and on for a minute or two. After I hung up he talked about how pool was an even to see who could soak up the most cigarette smoke or drink the most cheap beer and other such things, but pool could in no way be considered a sport, not even as much as a game of beer ball was in the park on the weekend. I really felt like poop. I do, however, thing he was speaking for the general public. It's just how we're seen.
Wouldn't it be great if a major media personality took time and covered an event or two, or if Team USA for the Mosconi Cup were to appear on Good Morning America. It would be great if it could happen as a bit more than a novelty.
Oh, and I still think Craig Carton is a dick

Already happened, IIRC. Johnny Archer was on a morning talk show performing trick shots. I personally think that having a professional pool player doing trick shots on tv is like the guy with the monkey doing tricks on the boardwalk. **** it... I enjoy playing, and will continue to do so, even if this is just nothing more than a parlor game.
 
The culture of gambling has prevented growth. The public perception that the game is played by hustlers keeps parents from allowing their kids to participate in numbers large enough to fascilitate corporate America from investing in the game and its future.
 

lost

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I know it's been asked many times, but I felt like ranting a little:

So I'm looking at web pages of some of the pros from countries not the USA, and I see that in some other countries they are on talk shows, involved with the olympic committees of their respective countries, they are included with other sports stars in chatity events, trade shows, autograph sessions, they visit children and soldiers in hospitals, they make commercials, and so on, and are treated with respect by their peers that are also sportsmen and women, as well, billiard events in most other countries get media coverage as citizens are genuinely interested in the results. They make the sports pages in the news papers. Hell, in the USA even chess and spelling bees make the evening news and the papers.
Here in this country the only time these guys get their names in print is when they're wanted. I don't know of a sports media of any kind in this country that even considers pool players as athletes. Pool players in the USA rate somewhere below tractor pull drivers and 'Rasslers. It seems to me that if tennis and golf in this country can host (and pay out) multi-million dollar international events that pool should be able to as well. Why not? Can someone please explain to me what's wrong with us as a culture, why are we the scum of the competitive sporting world?

You are totally exaggerating this. If pool was as big as you think it is overseas, all the "pros" here would be over there raking in all the big money right? But it doesn't exist....that's why the foreign pros are often over here. You are cherry picking by using google. What country has a lucrative "pool" tour and lets see the money list....the real money by the way...not some ridiculously high entry fee nonsense that just shuffles the money among the players themselves.
 

CJ Wiley

ESPN WORLD OPEN CHAMPION
Gold Member
Silver Member
.the time is coming, you can "bet" on that....if you don't mind betting

The "general public" LOVES gambling....it's in their blood and pool is one of the best gambling games ever invented. Poker has figured out the formula, however, pool's strengths are poker's weakness (Live TV), and pool's weaknesses are poker's strength (Not Live TV).....so the model is going to be different, although the results can be similar.

The issue it it's not been formatted (yet) to create the right public buzz....the time is coming, you can "bet" on that. ;) 'The Gambling Game is the Teacher'


BS The general public are OKing new casino's all over the country as we speak.
 

Colonel

Raised by Wolves in a Pool Hall
Silver Member
I really don't know the answer to the original question, it's eaten away at my soul for years. This is one of the most difficult sports to master & dominate in, far more so than say golf yet it's always lingered behind in popularity. Perhaps we do need to sell the gambling aspect of it, nothing else has worked. There are those that blame gambling for pools lot in life but honestly I just wish the public & sponsors would embrace it.
 

Island Drive

Otto/Dads College Roommate/Cleveland Browns
Silver Member
I really don't know the answer to the original question, it's eaten away at my soul for years. This is one of the most difficult sports to master & dominate in, far more so than say golf yet it's always lingered behind in popularity. Perhaps we do need to sell the gambling aspect of it, nothing else has worked. There are those that blame gambling for pools lot in life but honestly I just wish the public & sponsors would embrace it.

Your right, but it was EXACTLY the opposite during Mosconi's era, why is that? If you spend time figuring out that, you'll find your answer.
 
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Celophanewrap

Call me Grace
Silver Member
Your right, but it was EXACTLY the opposite during Mosconi's era, why is that? If you spend time figuring out that, you'll find your answer.

Is it because the world is a much smaller place now? Technology has reduced the size of the world and eliminated many of the borders. and now there is far less national pride. Even back in the days of Bobby Fischer and Boris Spasski it was a match up of the Americans and the Russians or Soviets, another part of the cold war. Back then any contest that matched East and West was an Olympic event regardless of when it actually took place. Not just for the Russians (or Soviets), but when ever the USA faced any other country in competition it was important that they won. Not so much today. The competing countries developed a healthy hatred for each other, nowadays thats not the politically correct thing to do. Listen to interviews of the USA and Soviet Basketball teams from the 72 Olympics, they still hate each other, or the members of USA Hockey and Soviet Hockey from the "Friendship Cup" during the 70's, they don't like each other much either.
Now during an international competition half of the foreign teams players have to leave the United States and their current teams to go home and compete for their own countries. Maybe it's just not as important that the Americans do as well on an international stage, theres just not as much money in it.
Back in the Mosconi era every other country or culture had a derogatory term aimed at it, it was important for the American player to be the best, not to let the American people down. The amateur athlete made certain sacrifices to become the best. Maybe those sacrifices built character and helped to develop a sense of pride and worth. Now gambling seems to be at the forefront and it's only important to be able to beat your current opponent out of a few bucks. Now the innocense is gone and the player wants to be paid. Playing to be recognized as the best or to be world champion, well, it's nice and all, but there's more money to be made setting up and taking down a fish over a week or a few days. Pool players seem to be a shallow lot. Damn the pride factor, if theres no money in it, it doesn't matter.
 

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Your right, but it was EXACTLY the opposite during Mosconi's era, why is that? If you spend time figuring out that, you'll find your answer.

There was less to compete with for peoples attention when Mosconi was playing. People saw pretty much every movie that came out, read books listened to the radio, read news papers scandal mags. and so on.

Going to a pool room for men, NOT women or children, was a pass time as well. We live in a different time today. You can't really look at the past and think that it can be repeated. I would not be investing in a company that wants to make B&W Televisions today using the idea that at one time everybody watched B&D so lets do it again.

You need to adapt to the current market conditions. At one time there was a market for pool people filled up arena's to watch. That market no longer exists. To give you an idea just how bad it is. News services and wire services where many news organizations get the stuff they put on the air will not announce professional pool results. I have tried and they were not interested.

As big as the annual US Open of 9 ball or the Derby is, have you ever seen the results on a national sports or news broadcast? How about Mosconi cup? No you have not. If you consider just that as a small poll or sampling of the demand for pool you would conclude, there must no be any. The public it would seem, does no want to watch or hear about pool. Making pool much more then what it is right now is a real up hill effort.
 
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justadub

Rattling corners nightly
Silver Member
The way golf is televised lends itself to better TV viewing for the general public flipping channels...

They show a player hitting a shot, they update you on who is where in the round, they cut to another hole showing a different player. While watching golf itself is relatively boring, the producers are showing you the event itself.

When pool is televised, its the same two people around the same table, watching them play. Good for a pool player to watch, but boring to anyone else.
 

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The way golf is televised lends itself to better TV viewing for the general public flipping channels...

They show a player hitting a shot, they update you on who is where in the round, they cut to another hole showing a different player. While watching golf itself is relatively boring, the producers are showing you the event itself.

When pool is televised, its the same two people around the same table, watching them play. Good for a pool player to watch, but boring to anyone else.
Pool is like boxing minus the excitement.
 

Jodacus

Shoot...don't talk
Silver Member
All I can

When people ask me what I do for fun I tell
them I play pool. Right away I explain to them that
it is not the kind of pool they are familiar with. I tell
them I don't hustle beers in a bar, I don't try to rob
people of their paychecks. I admit I do gamble but
only with select people who can gamble without
acting like fools when they win or lose. I don't have
a lot of problems avoiding smoke filled rooms. But
most important I play for fun and someone getting their
panties in a bunch is not fun!

So I do my part to change peoples views on pool. All
that I can.

Joe
 

kevpull

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Concur

It seems to me that U.S. poolplayers are more interested in gambling than anything else. I don't criticize that behavior either, it's the reason I like playing pool, but it's not the image the general public is comfortable with and it's the general public that matters.

U.S. players cut up prize money, conspire to dump backers, have savers and all kinds of other unsavory things. The number one U.S. player attempted to steal a ball and a game in the 2012 DCC Bankpool Finals yet it's denied by most here even though it's on a dvd. It's easier to ignore the behavior and pretend it doesn't happen then it is to actually step up and point out the bad behavior. The foreign players seem to have more respect for themselves and the game. There will always be exceptions both ways but this seems to be the general practice I see.

Nobody can even agree on whether or not the 1991 COC ended up being a dump.

Try watching some AccuStats matches and you will see players who stayed up all night gambling and have an early match. They look like hell and many dress shabbily. Jeans falling off their butts, shirts untucked. They seem to have no self-respect judging by all appearances. They usually play like crap since they're on no sleep. I can't remember the last time Cliff Joyner looked awake during a match. When I watch foreign players they are usually well-dressed and look like they slept during the night.

The U.S. players have no sense of national pride in the game and why should they? Like you correctly pointed out, they are the bottom of the competitive sporting world.

ONB

Well stated. And I totally agree. Pool in America attracts some of the most unsavory characters to the game and unfortunately they bring their low-life characteristics with them and the game suffers. Airballing, dumping, hustling, cheating, lying, stealing, drugs...the list goes on. Decent backers and sponsers will not risk their hard-won reputations to be associated with such a motley crew. Until pool can clean itself up... the game and its denizens will always be bottom feeders.
 

macguy

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Well stated. And I totally agree. Pool in America attracts some of the most unsavory characters to the game and unfortunately they bring their low-life characteristics with them and the game suffers. Airballing, dumping, hustling, cheating, lying, stealing, drugs...the list goes on. Decent backers and sponsers will not risk their hard-won reputations to be associated with such a motley crew. Until pool can clean itself up... the game and its denizens will always be bottom feeders.

Yea, what is wrong with pool is all those damn pool players. Where does all this venom come from? What personal experience do you have with all these terrible people? What do you base these observations on?
I think you are buying into a stereo type as much as the rest of the public often does. Pool is just an activity that millions of people do every week in pool rooms, leagues, clubs, condos, and homes all over the country.
 

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
All great points!

The players (especially the pros) have to
make an effort to rehab the image of pool.
Charity type events. Favorable news reports.
Good guy actions. Gambling is only an issue
in that it may (or may not) contribute to the
negative image of pool. People gamble at golf
all of the time, doesn't seem to hurt golf's
image.

It may never happen because we as a
whole have dug such a deep pit for
ourselves that I'm not confident we have
the cojones for the concerted effort it
will take to dig our way to a more favorable
image. Digging is such drudgery.

Joe

All are brought up in the documentary film about us ALL,
"Raising the Hustler"

-CP
 

efirkey

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The average Joe American pool player caught on that they were being hustled by pool hustlers and put a stop to it. Pool hustlers have been taking advantage of regular players for decades and now the hustlers/gamblers are all complaining because the "fish" have smartened up and moved on.

I think people are more aware that they can't gamble and beat better players and no matter how good they may be at their local tavern once they step up to the pool hall there are many hustlers willing to take their cash.

People still have plenty of money to gamble with but they realized that they can't make money in a pool room. Give it some time and people will slowly realize that they can't make any money in the poker rooms either. Maybe then some of them will return to the pool room, if there are any pool rooms left.

Just my take.
 

Chicagoplayer

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I've gone--

Many of us have known discrimination of one type or another. Growing up as a minority you basically had a stereotype pasted to your forehead and not many people could look beyond that. As pool players we're labeled "shark" or "hustler" and that all walks hand in hand with the thought that all pool players are gamblers and alcoholics or worse. Never mind that some our biggest American Heroes have had problems that make pool players look like angels. Pete Rose and Michael Jordan have their own issues or that Babe Ruth had some habits that could kill a horse and Ty Cobb was a known bigot. There are more paternity suites in the NFL, NBA, MLB than you can shake a stick at. Rapists, Drunks, Gang members, fathers of multiple children from multiple women, these are just some of the issues that plague major sports. But still, they continue to turn out "Roll models", "Heroes", and huge profit. Pool can't even afford to always pay it's event winners.
Back to the discrimination thing - some years ago I was a reasonably high level athlete. But as , I competed I blew out knees, and ankles, had different surgeries, and it was apparent that I had to find a different way to be competitive if I still wanted to be so I was introduced to pool. I had been playing for several months and getting better and one day I was listening to a local sports talk show hosted by (now national personality) Craig Carton and the topic was, "Name some great players in their respective sport that never became world champions". They talked about some Race car drivers, golfers, even bowlers. So I called and (I thought cleverly) mentioned Rudolph Wanderone. He asked who that was, and I told him Minnesota Fats. He came right back at me that pool was not a sport and how could I be so ignorant to think so and he went on and on for a minute or two. After I hung up he talked about how pool was an even to see who could soak up the most cigarette smoke or drink the most cheap beer and other such things, but pool could in no way be considered a sport, not even as much as a game of beer ball was in the park on the weekend. I really felt like poop. I do, however, thing he was speaking for the general public. It's just how we're seen.
Wouldn't it be great if a major media personality took time and covered an event or two, or if Team USA for the Mosconi Cup were to appear on Good Morning America. It would be great if it could happen as a bit more than a novelty.
Oh, and I still think Craig Carton is a dick
__________________________________________

to the Cog Hill leg of The FedEx Cup to draw comparisons between our 2 sports
and spoke with pro's and amateurs about pool and golf for "Raising the Hustler"
:wink:

-CP
 

poolguy4u

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The only way to bring Professional pool back is------

Get rid of the IRS, drug enforcement agencies, Liquor Control Board, Mother's Against Drunk Drivers, all surveillance equipment video and sound, bring gas back to $.19 cents a gallon, and rooms for $14.95 per night.


The United States government has gotten too greedy and put a stop to all the loose money out there. Free up all the illegal money and let the good times roll again.


Pretty sad when the local pool room can't even run a card game without someone snitching or doing a selfie and putting it online.
 
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