Well we didn't get trophies either.We got a tiny plaque for the teams that moved on.
Trust me , we've done the math , the typical payouts in our area are less than 10% of the gross. There are virtually no perks so 90% is alot for fees ,paper and envelopes.
I'm not saying whose dirty, it seems like someone is in there somewhere.
The kicker is ,since I've been playing leagues down here , they've gotten smaller and smaller as dissatified teams have continued to drop out. You'd think that someone would re-evaluate the business. I understand its a franchise for the sole benefit of the LO but you gotta keep the customers coming back or it's lose lose. At one house , an 8 ball league I shot in that filled the house at one time opened last Tuesday with 4 teams. The positive side is that locally 3rd party ran tournies are matching numbers of league participation. People are realizing where there money is better spent. I can't see APA holding on much longer around here.
From what I know about the different leagues, I would have to sponsor a BCA team...
Let's assume that play starts at 7:00 at night...
If I sponsor an APA team, the captains and the first player from each team have to be present at 7:00 to start play.
Depending on the number of games or balls needed, the next two opponents may not have to show up until 8:30.
The first two players finish playing and leave, and this cycle continues until the last players are finished.
At any given time, I've had 4 to 6 people in my bar spending money.
The BCA teams play four rounds a night (it may be more rounds in some areas).
Each player plays once per round.
So at 7:00, there need to be at least 3 people from each team to start. Even if those three play the first three games (and the other two shuffle in during those games), I've got 10 people in my bar spending money.
As a bar owner, If I do the math, I'm makin' more money from the BCA players. All 10 are here earlier (versus 4 to 6), and all 10 have to stay until at least the first match in the last round.
And to know that the money I've put up to sponsor the team is going back to the players ? For me (as a 'bar owner'), that makes the choice an easy one.
Well, that's part of what the franchise system is good for. If this particular LO is running it into the ground like this, he should be willing to sell for a figure at which anyone who can restore it to its previous scale, or even improve it, can make a profit (as you describe it, it's only a matter of time before he's belly-up, so he'll be selling sooner or later). The obvious way for someone to restore the league is to increase the payouts and customer service.
Of course, this all works because good LOs can make good money, while crappy ones generally cannot. So I see nothing wrong with LOs making good money by producing and selling something that people want to buy. There's nothing unique to pool or the APA here, it's just capitalism.
Cory
I'm not so sure about that. I have played in an APA league for the past year and a half and I haven't seen a team that works like that yet.
The short time that I played, it was commonplace for players (from both teams) to show up later in the night. They already had a rough idea of when they were playing.
When you get to the bar or room, you have no idea which team puts up the first player. There isn't a set rotation or anything like that for the players. I show up at 6:30 not knowing if I am going to shoot first or last. Everything depends on what the other team puts up and what you have left in the handicap. Both teams have all their players there the entire time.
Again, maybe this is common in the APA leagues abroad, but I can only comment on what I've experienced firsthand. And it wasn't just one night, it was all six nights, and the opposing team did the same.
If your playing APA to become a pro, you are doing it wrong. APA is all about recreation...just like the weekly softball and bowling leagues around your area as well.
You're absolutely right. It's a recreational league, geared towards beginners. I didn't play on the bar's softball team to use it as a stepping stone for the Yankee tryouts. It IS about recreation.
The keyword in this whole thread is "business." The APA has to do what it can to appeal to as many people as possible in order to make their money.
Absolutely. It is a business. And like anyone, I like to know the history of the business I'm getting involved in.
Why are there so many APA bashing threads here? Simply because there are mostly serious players on this site. People that are past what the APA has to offer. People here don't want to go out and pay $10 to shoot against a SL3.
This statement kinda gets to me. I don't think it's a matter of spending the money, it's where the money goes, like I've stated in a previous post. If I'm going to invest in the "business" venture you referred to earlier, then I should have the right to know what the potential return is on my money. And how my money is used in relation to that business.
Just about everything I've read on these APA threads refers to A) shady LO's, B) low paybacks, C) arbitrary raising of skill levels, and D) disqualifications in the nationals.
I'm certainly willing to spend $XX dollars a week to play pool, but I want to know I have the potential of getting the best return on my investment based on my ability at the table. And if I don't win the trip to nationals, then I know that my money is going to support the best PLAYING team in my league, not the one who can hide thier skill levels the best.
Everything is relative, just like APA players wouldn't want to go play in the BCA because the rules and lack of handicapping make it so hard for them to compete. Take myself for example. I am playing in a BCA league where I am outmatched just about every single match. I've lost more than double the amount of matches that I have won. Most players wouldn't want to play in this situation. They would rather go out and have fun playing pool with friends and family and not having to worry about figuring out their bank shot incorrectly and having it go in the opposite pocket.
Again, as I have said before, if the league that YOU play in is what YOU enjoy, then by all means, play in it. I've simply suggested that players do the research for each league. BCA leagues in your area may have a 'non-competitive' or 'handicap' night, maybe that's an alternative to the APA. If they don't have a handicap night, then suggest it to the LO, and see what his or her opinion is.
At the very least, it's worth looking into. My point is to be well-informed regarding all the choices available to you.
APA serves a purpose and it serves it well. It appeals to people of all ages and skill and brings customers into bars and pool rooms that wouldn't normally go in most cases, expanding business for owners.
Absolutely. But if I (as a room or bar owner) have a choice of my 'tavern fee' going back to the players, or NOT knowing where it goes ?? I would be more inclined to support the league that pays my players well.
The APA isn't "bad." It's just not for everyone.
No, the APA isn't 'bad'. It's a great way for people who would never consider playing the sport to 'get thier feet wet'. But much of that depends on the enjoyment that a league, and by default its operator, can provide.
Some have figured out an APA Franchisee is like being a Doctor, license to steal. In my are APA League Operators pay back to league members 42%..:angry:
I just don't understand all the APA bashing. It is a business and from my point of view, if I don't like a product, I don't patronize the business. If the product (or service) is that bad, then eventually the business either fails or has to change in order to continue. If there are enough customers to "carry" the business then maybe it doesn't fail or change. Either way, I can look elsewhere. For those that say there is no BCA around them, it isn't too difficult to sanction your own league. You just need to take the initiative to do something to make a change - kind of what you are paying a league operator to do. Run the business.
I don't disagree one bit that league operators make money, but like any independant franchise location, some are good at what they provide and some are not. Some are successful and some are not, but it's the customer that ultimately determines the success. It is a choice. I don't berate individuals for the choices they make at the grocery store every week. Maybe I buy different products because those are the products I feel deserve my money. It's all perceived value.
As for the luck factor of slopping balls in. It's like playing poker with a loose cannon. Yes, they are going to draw out on me once in a while, but I'll gladly take their money the large percentage of the time when they shouldn't even be in the hand. More often than not, the "slop" player will do something stupid that is to my advantage at the table. I'll take that percentage too.
Just my two cents. Actually that was more like a quarter.
The APA ruined traditional Old School Pocket Billiards. Alcohol, loud music, bar tables with 8" pockets, slop shots, sandbagging, 8-ball on the break wins???... sigh... Yes, the APA has made pool more popular than it would have been without it. That is a good thing. Unfortunately, the other byproducts aren't. Leave it to America to bastardize yet another great thing in world history... Yes I'm American, and proud. Usually...![]()
Interesting thing about this thread on the APA is a couple of common comments. One, sandbagging is encouraged. Two, losing intentionally is also encouraged. Only by people who feel that sandbagging/cheating is OK... because, after all EVERYBODY does it (NOT)!
Mentioned earlier in this thread I planned on playing intermittantly in a local APA league this fall. Have my reasons for doing so. My tenure will be very short if either of the two is asked of me. Discovered playing pool can really be fun. Took me over 50 years to learn that simple concept. My weekly 40 oz's of beer and a dozen hot chicken wings. Good friends, cold beer and the game of pool. Ah retirement!
Lyn
jbravo2984...I don't know how old you are (I've been playing almost 40 years), but in traditional "old school" 8-ball, the 8 on the break was ALWAYS a win. The BCA changed the rule in the past 10-15 years. Don't blame the APA for 'bastardizing' the "8 on the break" rule.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
You've brought up quite a few things, Abie10...
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How many times have you tried to talk pool to someone that doesn't know about the game ?
-Tell anyone at work that Johnny Archer took out Rodney Morris for the title at Turning Stone last month, and they give you that 'deer in the headlights' look...
-Ask if they watched Phil Mickelson's 14th hole putt on Sportscenter yesterday, and they say, "Oh, but you should've seen the one he made on the 11th !!"
-Did they see the ball game last night ?? "Yea, Jeter hit a two-run homer in the seventh, and that was it from there."
-Tell them there's a guy in your league that owns an original Szamboti. They'll ask if he makes good money driving it around the hockey rink.
My point is that our passion for this game is not as mainstream as we would hope it to be.
And the ironic part is that the goal of becoming a pool player is more attainable for the vast majority of people than it is to play golf or baseball.
All I've ever suggested is that players do the research on leagues that they may potentially join. Talk to the players in a league ABOUT thier league. Get thier opinions. Players will tell you what they like about thier league, what they hate about it, and some will admit to you why they won't even consider an alternative.
The worst thing for our game (regardless of the league system you're in) is for new players to come in and feel as if they've 'gotten screwed'.
If the LO is a bit aloof on how the handicap system works, is hard to get a hold of, prefers the dues in cash rather than a check or money order, and his most recent stats are from the first week of the season ? Ugh. I wouldn't want that guy mowing my lawn...
But if the local league has an LO that is fair and impartial, has a defined handicap system, pays back a considerable amount of money, is easy to reach (via phone or email) and RETURNS EMAILS, has updated stats every week, and overall seems to have a vested interest in his players, well then...
THAT'S the league that I want to play in !!!
jbravo2984...I don't know how old you are (I've been playing almost 40 years), but in traditional "old school" 8-ball, the 8 on the break was ALWAYS a win. The BCA changed the rule in the past 10-15 years. Don't blame the APA for 'bastardizing' the "8 on the break" rule.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Lance Link (among other "payback" bashers)...You all just don't GET IT. The APA was never intended to be a payback league...not 30 years ago, and not now. If the LO chooses to payback more than sending teams to Vegas, good for them...but this nonsense about "I only got paid back $50 for a whole session" is absolute baloney. You don't play APA to make money, plain and simple. If you do, you're in the wrong place, for the wrong reason. As said several times...it's about recreation. Do you expect to be paid back for going to the movies? How about a concert?...watching a baseball or football game?
We pay to be entertained...and don't EXPECT a refund. That's the real truth about the APA too. Now...that said, imo the APA could put another million or two dollars annually into the national event prize pool very easily. APA corporate is really the one making the huge profit. Some LO's do quite well, and imo, deserve it for all the hard work, whining from the players, and handling all the BS that many of these posts are about. Yes there are some poor LO's...there are in any league organization...but it's not MOST of them. There are plenty of crybabies and cheaters in other leagues too...it's not only in the APA.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Factor...Tap, tap, tap! Nice to hear an "unbiased" viewpoint! :thumbup:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Lance Link (among other "payback" bashers)...You all just don't GET IT. The APA was never intended to be a payback league...not 30 years ago, and not now. If the LO chooses to payback more than sending teams to Vegas, good for them...but this nonsense about "I only got paid back $50 for a whole session" is absolute baloney. You don't play APA to make money, plain and simple. If you do, you're in the wrong place, for the wrong reason. As said several times...it's about recreation. Do you expect to be paid back for going to the movies? How about a concert?...watching a baseball or football game?
We pay to be entertained...and don't EXPECT a refund. That's the real truth about the APA too.
Now...that said, imo the APA could put another million or two dollars annually into the national event prize pool very easily. APA corporate is really the one making the huge profit. Some LO's do quite well, and imo, deserve it for all the hard work, whining from the players, and handling all the BS that many of these posts are about. Yes there are some poor LO's...there are in any league organization...but it's not MOST of them. There are plenty of crybabies and cheaters in other leagues too...it's not only in the APA.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
And why I'm so vocal about the APA! I feel I've earned the right!
Gee Scott, what would you know about an unbiased opinion of the APA?
Since you made the comment that I had a vendetta against the APA, I made a point of not posting in this thread unless you did, but I should have known you would not let me down!:grin:
Let me tell you a little about my experience with the APA, and I won't even go into the obvious rules issues I have.
I've been playing pool for over 40 years myself and played in the Busch League when it was first formed, owned a bar and supported it like a good APA'er. We had one league operator who had MS and due to his illness, we didn't
have playoffs the first year and of course no one in the area was qualified to go to the nationals. That was unfortunate, but we all understood why and there wasn't too many people upset. He gave up his franchise. The next LO
in our area skipped town with the final 4 weeks of the dues and because he didn't pay the powers to be in St.Louis again no one was qualified for the nationals and of course the APA did nothing to rectify the situation. The next
LO was like a "Hitler". He thought his shit didn't stink and that it was his way or the highway! A lot of people chose the highway! Teams broke up, whole divisions folded and again we weren't qualified for higher level tournaments!
The next guy was just as bad but was sneakier about it. My team went to Columbus to play in the State tournament. The state was run by the LO in Columbus who owned a vending company and one of the main bars playing in
their division. We had a player on our team who was a SL7 all year, paid his dues and played up until we had to play against his pet team, from his bar when the LO declared he was a "pro" and was disqualified. I called St. Louis
and talked to Larry Hubbart myself and Larry said he knew the player and he was a "top flight amateur" (his words) and was eligible. The LO said "HE WAS RUNNING THE STATE TOURNAMENT NOT LARRY HUBBART" and if we
wanted to continue, we would play without our "top flight amateur" or we would forfeit! I called St. Louis again and Larry Hubbart said that the LO had the final say on the subject, that he was in fact running the tournament, not
St. Louis. We ended up losing by one game due to this ruling and coming in second. When the trophy's were handed out I took ours and told the LO to go make a baby by his self, in not those words and we left. I quit the APA BS
for a few years and another LO came along and I decided to give them one more chance. At this point I owned a pool room instead of the bar and put together a team of fairly good players. Everyone but one player played up to
their handicap but we had one "ringer" who remained a SL2, Eugene Metz. About half way through the session the LO found out that Eugene had a nickname, "Clem" and that he had at one time been one of the most feared
money players in the world. Every other team in the league had several sandbaggers but because we had the infamous Clem on our roster we came under scrutiny. Everyones handicap was raised including 2 guys who were
actually a 2 and a 3! Neither one had a clue, but were nice guys and we wanted them as part of our team. We could only field a legal team (under the 23 rule) every other week because our lowest handicapped player was a
fireman and was at the firehouse every other week. On one of the weeks we knew we had to forfeit the last match, we had the option of playing either a weak 4 (the guy who should have been a 3) or a 5. The opposing team
captain said we had to play the 4 because our fireman, the 3 wasn't present even though he was on our roster. We called the LO and asked for a ruling and explained every detail to him, the opposing team captain weighed in
with his side as well! The LO said we could play the 5 and forfeit the last match. We won the other 4! When the paperwork came out for the next week it showed us with 5 losses. When I called the LO about the discrepancy he
told me that the other team protested and he sided with them at a later date! I argued that if he hadn't ruled that we could play the 5, we could have played the other player and we would have won at least 3 out of the 5
matches. He wouldn't budge! We dropped out of the league! Several years later, a customer of mine bought a new cue for himself and his wife and they pressured me into playing on their team in a different county and with a
different LO. Again they started raising our handicaps at the end of the session to the point where we could no longer field a legal team under the 23 rule. In the city tournament we had to forfeit the last match again and I had
to play a guy, who I happen to like very much, but I had to spot him 1 game even though he played professionally. That was my last straw with the APA and why I don't like the rules and system they have of fleecing the
players! And why I'm so vocal about the APA! I feel I've earned the right!