Why is the APA so frowned upon?
- Thread starter Magyar19
- Start date
Well we didn't get trophies either.We got a tiny plaque for the teams that moved on.
Trust me , we've done the math , the typical payouts in our area are less than 10% of the gross. There are virtually no perks so 90% is alot for fees ,paper and envelopes.
I'm not saying whose dirty, it seems like someone is in there somewhere.
The kicker is ,since I've been playing leagues down here , they've gotten smaller and smaller as dissatified teams have continued to drop out. You'd think that someone would re-evaluate the business. I understand its a franchise for the sole benefit of the LO but you gotta keep the customers coming back or it's lose lose. At one house , an 8 ball league I shot in that filled the house at one time opened last Tuesday with 4 teams. The positive side is that locally 3rd party ran tournies are matching numbers of league participation. People are realizing where there money is better spent. I can't see APA holding on much longer around here.
Well, that's part of what the franchise system is good for. If this particular LO is running it into the ground like this, he should be willing to sell for a figure at which anyone who can restore it to its previous scale, or even improve it, can make a profit (as you describe it, it's only a matter of time before he's belly-up, so he'll be selling sooner or later). The obvious way for someone to restore the league is to increase the payouts and customer service.
Of course, this all works because good LOs can make good money, while crappy ones generally cannot. So I see nothing wrong with LOs making good money by producing and selling something that people want to buy. There's nothing unique to pool or the APA here, it's just capitalism.
Cory
I'm not so sure about that. I have played in an APA league for the past year and a half and I haven't seen a team that works like that yet.
When you get to the bar or room, you have no idea which team puts up the first player. There isn't a set rotation or anything like that for the players. I show up at 6:30 not knowing if I am going to shoot first or last. Everything depends on what the other team puts up and what you have left in the handicap. Both teams have all their players there the entire time.
If your playing APA to become a pro, you are doing it wrong. APA is all about recreation...just like the weekly softball and bowling leagues around your area as well.
The keyword in this whole thread is "business." The APA has to do what it can to appeal to as many people as possible in order to make their money.
Why are there so many APA bashing threads here? Simply because there are mostly serious players on this site. People that are past what the APA has to offer. People here don't want to go out and pay $10 to shoot against a SL3.
Everything is relative, just like APA players wouldn't want to go play in the BCA because the rules and lack of handicapping make it so hard for them to compete. Take myself for example. I am playing in a BCA league where I am outmatched just about every single match. I've lost more than double the amount of matches that I have won. Most players wouldn't want to play in this situation. They would rather go out and have fun playing pool with friends and family and not having to worry about figuring out their bank shot incorrectly and having it go in the opposite pocket.
APA serves a purpose and it serves it well. It appeals to people of all ages and skill and brings customers into bars and pool rooms that wouldn't normally go in most cases, expanding business for owners.
The APA isn't "bad." It's just not for everyone.
You'd think. Your also assuming this is his primary source of income where it would matter to him. It cost little to nothing to keep a crippled franchise running and if your happy making whatever you are , there's no incentive to change. It's not like you have thousands in overhead to cover. Additionally , this is the primary reason why so many people feel the labor/profit ratio is flawed.
Therefore , If he's not interested in selling , your stuck.
First off , it's a comparitively worthless business venture in it's current form.
Second , your unable to bring in a competing APA franchise.
And third , you have damaging residual effects. We've had 2 long standing rooms close this last year (one late last year and one early this) and the one I'm currently playing at is moving when their lease is up this year. They may or may not be re-opening , we don't know yet.
Now of course it's not all the leagues fault thier going under but they sure ain't helping it either.
APA St.Louis
I was a long time member in St.Louis. Went to Vegas and lost bad. I put a new stronger team in and whole team got raised up during citi wide until we could not field a team. Got assaulted by League Operator and his two sons. I have seen all kinds of sandbagging. League Operators can manipulate system too easily. The level of competition in you league matters alot. In St.Louis my league never had more than a couple of 6's. In cape almost every team had tow or threee higher ranked players. I bought a pool hall in Cape Girardeau where as a 6, I played worse than a three and even with several 4's and fives. Cape has had several teams dq'd in vegas. What about all of the teams that don't make it because of them. I had BCA in my bar also and they all came and played on two or three tables and were in and out in an hour or two so from a bar standpoint I think it matters what kind of teams you have not what league.
As far as money? I won our top gun tourney and got $175. We won our cash cup once and got $1000. We went to Vegas and it cost way more than we could have won with out finishing very high. Our operator gave us $250 ea and two hotel rooms for 8 people. Plane tickets were $335 ea so we were down to start. Our MO 8 ball league is TEN Times better here.
I was a long time member in St.Louis. Went to Vegas and lost bad. I put a new stronger team in and whole team got raised up during citi wide until we could not field a team. Got assaulted by League Operator and his two sons. I have seen all kinds of sandbagging. League Operators can manipulate system too easily. The level of competition in you league matters alot. In St.Louis my league never had more than a couple of 6's. In cape almost every team had tow or threee higher ranked players. I bought a pool hall in Cape Girardeau where as a 6, I played worse than a three and even with several 4's and fives. Cape has had several teams dq'd in vegas. What about all of the teams that don't make it because of them. I had BCA in my bar also and they all came and played on two or three tables and were in and out in an hour or two so from a bar standpoint I think it matters what kind of teams you have not what league.
As far as money? I won our top gun tourney and got $175. We won our cash cup once and got $1000. We went to Vegas and it cost way more than we could have won with out finishing very high. Our operator gave us $250 ea and two hotel rooms for 8 people. Plane tickets were $335 ea so we were down to start. Our MO 8 ball league is TEN Times better here.
Lance Link
Banned
You've brought up quite a few things, Abie10...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
How many times have you tried to talk pool to someone that doesn't know about the game ?
-Tell anyone at work that Johnny Archer took out Rodney Morris for the title at Turning Stone last month, and they give you that 'deer in the headlights' look...
-Ask if they watched Phil Mickelson's 14th hole putt on Sportscenter yesterday, and they say, "Oh, but you should've seen the one he made on the 11th !!"
-Did they see the ball game last night ?? "Yea, Jeter hit a two-run homer in the seventh, and that was it from there."
-Tell them there's a guy in your league that owns an original Szamboti. They'll ask if he makes good money driving it around the hockey rink.
My point is that our passion for this game is not as mainstream as we would hope it to be.
And the ironic part is that the goal of becoming a pool player is more attainable for the vast majority of people than it is to play golf or baseball.
All I've ever suggested is that players do the research on leagues that they may potentially join. Talk to the players in a league ABOUT thier league. Get thier opinions. Players will tell you what they like about thier league, what they hate about it, and some will admit to you why they won't even consider an alternative.
The worst thing for our game (regardless of the league system you're in) is for new players to come in and feel as if they've 'gotten screwed'.
If the LO is a bit aloof on how the handicap system works, is hard to get a hold of, prefers the dues in cash rather than a check or money order, and his most recent stats are from the first week of the season ? Ugh. I wouldn't want that guy mowing my lawn...
But if the local league has an LO that is fair and impartial, has a defined handicap system, pays back a considerable amount of money, is easy to reach (via phone or email) and RETURNS EMAILS, has updated stats every week, and overall seems to have a vested interest in his players, well then...
THAT'S the league that I want to play in !!!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
How many times have you tried to talk pool to someone that doesn't know about the game ?
-Tell anyone at work that Johnny Archer took out Rodney Morris for the title at Turning Stone last month, and they give you that 'deer in the headlights' look...
-Ask if they watched Phil Mickelson's 14th hole putt on Sportscenter yesterday, and they say, "Oh, but you should've seen the one he made on the 11th !!"
-Did they see the ball game last night ?? "Yea, Jeter hit a two-run homer in the seventh, and that was it from there."
-Tell them there's a guy in your league that owns an original Szamboti. They'll ask if he makes good money driving it around the hockey rink.
My point is that our passion for this game is not as mainstream as we would hope it to be.
And the ironic part is that the goal of becoming a pool player is more attainable for the vast majority of people than it is to play golf or baseball.
All I've ever suggested is that players do the research on leagues that they may potentially join. Talk to the players in a league ABOUT thier league. Get thier opinions. Players will tell you what they like about thier league, what they hate about it, and some will admit to you why they won't even consider an alternative.
The worst thing for our game (regardless of the league system you're in) is for new players to come in and feel as if they've 'gotten screwed'.
If the LO is a bit aloof on how the handicap system works, is hard to get a hold of, prefers the dues in cash rather than a check or money order, and his most recent stats are from the first week of the season ? Ugh. I wouldn't want that guy mowing my lawn...
But if the local league has an LO that is fair and impartial, has a defined handicap system, pays back a considerable amount of money, is easy to reach (via phone or email) and RETURNS EMAILS, has updated stats every week, and overall seems to have a vested interest in his players, well then...
THAT'S the league that I want to play in !!!
Last edited:
Factor...Tap, tap, tap! Nice to hear an "unbiased" viewpoint! :thumbup:
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
jbravo2984...I don't know how old you are (I've been playing almost 40 years), but in traditional "old school" 8-ball, the 8 on the break was ALWAYS a win. The BCA changed the rule in the past 10-15 years. Don't blame the APA for 'bastardizing' the "8 on the break" rule.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
The APA ruined traditional Old School Pocket Billiards. Alcohol, loud music, bar tables with 8" pockets, slop shots, sandbagging, 8-ball on the break wins???... sigh... Yes, the APA has made pool more popular than it would have been without it. That is a good thing. Unfortunately, the other byproducts aren't. Leave it to America to bastardize yet another great thing in world history... Yes I'm American, and proud. Usually...
Lyn...I'm with you. I would never even consider playing on a team that asked me to miss shots intentionally, or lose on purpose (take one for the team)! As a former APA LO, if I saw someone missing on purpose (as an instructor I can pretty much tell if that happened), or losing intentionally, they would have a choice...become a permanent 7...or get the hell out of my league. Now admittedly, I was a small league operator (>80 teams), but in four years I only had to kick 2 players out of my league...and that was for poor sportsmanship, not cheating.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Last edited:
You're right about "old school" eight ball.
The APA didn't bastardize it. The BCA has changed the game. It's not eight ball any more. Eight ball on the break is not a win? Open table after the break? Scratch on eight ball is not a loss? And now, ball in hand anywhere on the table after a scratch on the break? This is not eight ball anymore, it's just a game of run the balls. It's who's got the best break wins. All of the eight ball skills are being removed from the game.
Lance Link (among other "payback" bashers)...You all just don't GET IT. The APA was never intended to be a payback league...not 30 years ago, and not now. If the LO chooses to payback more than sending teams to Vegas, good for them...but this nonsense about "I only got paid back $50 for a whole session" is absolute baloney. You don't play APA to make money, plain and simple. If you do, you're in the wrong place, for the wrong reason. As said several times...it's about recreation. Do you expect to be paid back for going to the movies? How about a concert?...watching a baseball or football game?
We pay to be entertained...and don't EXPECT a refund. That's the real truth about the APA too. Now...that said, imo the APA could put another million or two dollars annually into the national event prize pool very easily. APA corporate is really the one making the huge profit. Some LO's do quite well, and imo, deserve it for all the hard work, whining from the players, and handling all the BS that many of these posts are about. Yes there are some poor LO's...there are in any league organization...but it's not MOST of them. There are plenty of crybabies and cheaters in other leagues too...it's not only in the APA.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
We pay to be entertained...and don't EXPECT a refund. That's the real truth about the APA too. Now...that said, imo the APA could put another million or two dollars annually into the national event prize pool very easily. APA corporate is really the one making the huge profit. Some LO's do quite well, and imo, deserve it for all the hard work, whining from the players, and handling all the BS that many of these posts are about. Yes there are some poor LO's...there are in any league organization...but it's not MOST of them. There are plenty of crybabies and cheaters in other leagues too...it's not only in the APA.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
Actually, if you look up the original BCA 8-ball rules, you'll find that making the 8 on the break was an automatic loss, unless you called the pocket.
I don't know when that changed, but I did see it somewhere. It may very well have been in my copy of "99 Critcal Shots", which has been published for several years now, written well before there were any nationwide league systems.
I don't know when that changed, but I did see it somewhere. It may very well have been in my copy of "99 Critcal Shots", which has been published for several years now, written well before there were any nationwide league systems.
Scott:
Great points. I've always played 8-ball on the break is a win as well, and I've been playing since 1974.
A couple reasons for why 8-ball on the break is a win:
1. Coin drop. Many places where bar table leagues (like the APA) play simply don't want to relinquish their coin drop revenue (i.e. by opening up the side panels of the bar box for the duration of the league evening) "just because the league has guaranteed them a captive audience." So what? Many league'ers are the stingiest patrons; they think because they're "giving the establishment their 'guaranteed' business, that the establishment therefore 'owes him/her' for doing so." Thus, they only have a coke/pepsi (or even worse, a glass of water with perhaps a slice of lemon -- which is free in most places) and not even patronize the establishment beyond these meager items. (Granted, that's not to say "all league'ers are stingey" -- many post here saying how they really appreciate the fact the establishment hosts their league and make it a point to patronize the establishment. But this is a small ratio of players to the much larger number of "what have you done for me lately?" types.) Thus, many establishments tend to keep coin drop in place, to get some semblance of revenue from league night. And if you sink the 8-ball on the break, you expect the proprietor of the establishment to give you the key to the side panels to retrieve it and spot it? Nope.
2. Sinking the 8-ball on the break is Damn Hard(tm). Unless there's a fault in the rack that one can target and exploit (e.g. Joe Tucker's "Racking Secrets") to get that 8-ball moving in some semblance of a regular manner towards a pocket, 8-ball on the break tends to be a sort of chaotic thing. Yes, there's that ol' technique of using a second-ball-row break (i.e. targeting the second row of balls behind the head ball, with either inside or outside draw english), but that's certainly not a guarantee.
I think 8-ball on the break as a "win" is proper. I don't know how the BCA came up with the rule they did, but it does fly in the face of how 8-ball was traditionally played. Not saying it's a bad rule, mind you -- I'm all in favor of removing the luck factor (as many know from my advocacy of 10-ball over 9-ball). But the BCA has instituted this rule and by doing so, have strong-armed many establishments that would rather not lose their coin drop revenue.
-Sean
Tap, tap, tap.
I absolutely love it when Scott comes on here and makes these points about APA, because the bashers usually find it difficult to discredit him. (As opposed to the messages I receive telling me that I don't know anything, being so new, and that once I've been around "you'll see"....)
Thanks for the level-headed responses, Scott. You are, as always, spot on.
Gee Scott, what would you know about an unbiased opinion of the APA?
Since you made the comment that I had a vendetta against the APA, I made a point of not posting in this thread unless you did, but I should have known you would not let me down!:grin:
Let me tell you a little about my experience with the APA, and I won't even go into the obvious rules issues I have.
I've been playing pool for over 40 years myself and played in the Busch League when it was first formed, owned a bar and supported it like a good APA'er. We had one league operator who had MS and due to his illness, we didn't
have playoffs the first year and of course no one in the area was qualified to go to the nationals. That was unfortunate, but we all understood why and there wasn't too many people upset. He gave up his franchise. The next LO
in our area skipped town with the final 4 weeks of the dues and because he didn't pay the powers to be in St.Louis again no one was qualified for the nationals and of course the APA did nothing to rectify the situation. The next
LO was like a "Hitler". He thought his shit didn't stink and that it was his way or the highway! A lot of people chose the highway! Teams broke up, whole divisions folded and again we weren't qualified for higher level tournaments!
The next guy was just as bad but was sneakier about it. My team went to Columbus to play in the State tournament. The state was run by the LO in Columbus who owned a vending company and one of the main bars playing in
their division. We had a player on our team who was a SL7 all year, paid his dues and played up until we had to play against his pet team, from his bar when the LO declared he was a "pro" and was disqualified. I called St. Louis
and talked to Larry Hubbart myself and Larry said he knew the player and he was a "top flight amateur" (his words) and was eligible. The LO said "HE WAS RUNNING THE STATE TOURNAMENT NOT LARRY HUBBART" and if we
wanted to continue, we would play without our "top flight amateur" or we would forfeit! I called St. Louis again and Larry Hubbart said that the LO had the final say on the subject, that he was in fact running the tournament, not
St. Louis. We ended up losing by one game due to this ruling and coming in second. When the trophy's were handed out I took ours and told the LO to go make a baby by his self, in not those words and we left. I quit the APA BS
for a few years and another LO came along and I decided to give them one more chance. At this point I owned a pool room instead of the bar and put together a team of fairly good players. Everyone but one player played up to
their handicap but we had one "ringer" who remained a SL2, Eugene Metz. About half way through the session the LO found out that Eugene had a nickname, "Clem" and that he had at one time been one of the most feared
money players in the world. Every other team in the league had several sandbaggers but because we had the infamous Clem on our roster we came under scrutiny. Everyones handicap was raised including 2 guys who were
actually a 2 and a 3! Neither one had a clue, but were nice guys and we wanted them as part of our team. We could only field a legal team (under the 23 rule) every other week because our lowest handicapped player was a
fireman and was at the firehouse every other week. On one of the weeks we knew we had to forfeit the last match, we had the option of playing either a weak 4 (the guy who should have been a 3) or a 5. The opposing team
captain said we had to play the 4 because our fireman, the 3 wasn't present even though he was on our roster. We called the LO and asked for a ruling and explained every detail to him, the opposing team captain weighed in
with his side as well! The LO said we could play the 5 and forfeit the last match. We won the other 4! When the paperwork came out for the next week it showed us with 5 losses. When I called the LO about the discrepancy he
told me that the other team protested and he sided with them at a later date! I argued that if he hadn't ruled that we could play the 5, we could have played the other player and we would have won at least 3 out of the 5
matches. He wouldn't budge! We dropped out of the league! Several years later, a customer of mine bought a new cue for himself and his wife and they pressured me into playing on their team in a different county and with a
different LO. Again they started raising our handicaps at the end of the session to the point where we could no longer field a legal team under the 23 rule. In the city tournament we had to forfeit the last match again and I had
to play a guy, who I happen to like very much, but I had to spot him 1 game even though he played professionally. That was my last straw with the APA and why I don't like the rules and system they have of fleecing the
players! And why I'm so vocal about the APA! I feel I've earned the right!
Last edited:
Lance Link
Banned
Scott Lee, I think you're the one who's not getting it...
Now, I'm not trying to make an enemy, but you've kind of contradicted yourself... in your same post.
The point I've tried to make is that if a player is not happy getting back $50, then they need to find a league that pays back more to the players.
If your goal is to go out and have a good time with some friends at a pool table, then so be it.
If there's not a league in your area that meets the criteria you're looking for, then consider starting one.
I continue to see posts that say, "I've played in APA for ____ years and it pisses me off that we only got back $50 for the whole team". If you don't like the payouts, then join another league. And yes, if it was the BCA leagues that payed crap, I would say the same thing !!!
Larry Flint once said, "If you don't like my (Hustler) magazine, then don't buy it". The same holds true with pool leagues. If you don't like what they're offering, then don't join. If you don't like the BCA, then don't play in it. Plain and simple.
For the region that I'm in, for ME, the APA isn't where I want to play. I prefer to play in the BCA. And if I was asked to 'lay down' or 'dump a game' in the BCA, that WOULD be my last night of play. But I haven't been asked yet, and I don't think I ever will be.
Now, I'm sure that, just like on here, there are players in my area with an adverse opinion to mine. And that's fine...
But when I constantly see the same types of threads on this forum regarding the APA, it kinda makes me wonder what type of things are going on in this franchise. For sake of discussion, let's eliminate the 'payout' aspect of the leagues. Help me understand...
- Players deliberately losing games ?
- Players can be arbitrarily raised in skill level ?
- Players are disqualified at the Nationals ?
In the years that I've been playing in the BCA, I've been to the nationals seven times (for singles and/or team, depending on the year). I have yet to see or hear of a team in the BCA get disqualified for 'sandbagging'.
Can anyone find and quote a few BCA-bashing threads ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And here has been my point all along...
How many times have you tried to talk pool to someone that doesn't know about the game ?
-Tell anyone at work that Johnny Archer took out Rodney Morris for the title at Turning Stone last month, and they give you that 'deer in the headlights' look...
-Ask if they watched Phil Mickelson's 14th hole putt on Sportscenter yesterday, and they say, "Oh, but you should've seen the one he made on the 11th !!"
-Did they see the ball game last night ?? "Yea, Jeter hit a two-run homer in the seventh, and that was it from there."
-Tell them there's a guy in your league that owns an original Szamboti. They'll ask if he makes good money driving it around the hockey rink.
My point is that our passion for this game is not as mainstream as we would hope it to be.
And the ironic part is that the goal of becoming a pool player is more attainable for the vast majority of people than it is to play golf or baseball.
All I've ever suggested is that players do the research on leagues that they may potentially join. Talk to the players in a league ABOUT thier league. Get thier opinions. Players will tell you what they like about thier league, what they hate about it, and some will admit to you why they won't even consider an alternative.
The worst thing for our game (regardless of the league system you're in) is for new players to come in and feel as if they've 'gotten screwed'.
If the LO is a bit aloof on how the handicap system works, is hard to get a hold of, prefers the dues in cash rather than a check or money order, and his most recent stats are from the first week of the season ? Ugh. I wouldn't want that guy mowing my lawn...
But if the local league has an LO that is fair and impartial, has a defined handicap system, pays back a considerable amount of money, is easy to reach (via phone or email) and RETURNS EMAILS, has updated stats every week, and overall seems to have a vested interest in his players, well then...
THAT'S the league that I want to play in !!!
Now, I'm not trying to make an enemy, but you've kind of contradicted yourself... in your same post.
The point I've tried to make is that if a player is not happy getting back $50, then they need to find a league that pays back more to the players.
If your goal is to go out and have a good time with some friends at a pool table, then so be it.
If there's not a league in your area that meets the criteria you're looking for, then consider starting one.
I continue to see posts that say, "I've played in APA for ____ years and it pisses me off that we only got back $50 for the whole team". If you don't like the payouts, then join another league. And yes, if it was the BCA leagues that payed crap, I would say the same thing !!!
Larry Flint once said, "If you don't like my (Hustler) magazine, then don't buy it". The same holds true with pool leagues. If you don't like what they're offering, then don't join. If you don't like the BCA, then don't play in it. Plain and simple.
For the region that I'm in, for ME, the APA isn't where I want to play. I prefer to play in the BCA. And if I was asked to 'lay down' or 'dump a game' in the BCA, that WOULD be my last night of play. But I haven't been asked yet, and I don't think I ever will be.
Now, I'm sure that, just like on here, there are players in my area with an adverse opinion to mine. And that's fine...
But when I constantly see the same types of threads on this forum regarding the APA, it kinda makes me wonder what type of things are going on in this franchise. For sake of discussion, let's eliminate the 'payout' aspect of the leagues. Help me understand...
- Players deliberately losing games ?
- Players can be arbitrarily raised in skill level ?
- Players are disqualified at the Nationals ?
In the years that I've been playing in the BCA, I've been to the nationals seven times (for singles and/or team, depending on the year). I have yet to see or hear of a team in the BCA get disqualified for 'sandbagging'.
Can anyone find and quote a few BCA-bashing threads ?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
And here has been my point all along...
How many times have you tried to talk pool to someone that doesn't know about the game ?
-Tell anyone at work that Johnny Archer took out Rodney Morris for the title at Turning Stone last month, and they give you that 'deer in the headlights' look...
-Ask if they watched Phil Mickelson's 14th hole putt on Sportscenter yesterday, and they say, "Oh, but you should've seen the one he made on the 11th !!"
-Did they see the ball game last night ?? "Yea, Jeter hit a two-run homer in the seventh, and that was it from there."
-Tell them there's a guy in your league that owns an original Szamboti. They'll ask if he makes good money driving it around the hockey rink.
My point is that our passion for this game is not as mainstream as we would hope it to be.
And the ironic part is that the goal of becoming a pool player is more attainable for the vast majority of people than it is to play golf or baseball.
All I've ever suggested is that players do the research on leagues that they may potentially join. Talk to the players in a league ABOUT thier league. Get thier opinions. Players will tell you what they like about thier league, what they hate about it, and some will admit to you why they won't even consider an alternative.
The worst thing for our game (regardless of the league system you're in) is for new players to come in and feel as if they've 'gotten screwed'.
If the LO is a bit aloof on how the handicap system works, is hard to get a hold of, prefers the dues in cash rather than a check or money order, and his most recent stats are from the first week of the season ? Ugh. I wouldn't want that guy mowing my lawn...
But if the local league has an LO that is fair and impartial, has a defined handicap system, pays back a considerable amount of money, is easy to reach (via phone or email) and RETURNS EMAILS, has updated stats every week, and overall seems to have a vested interest in his players, well then...
THAT'S the league that I want to play in !!!
Last edited:
Gee Scott, what would you know about an unbiased opinion of the APA?
Since you made the comment that I had a vendetta against the APA, I made a point of not posting in this thread unless you did, but I should have known you would not let me down!:grin:
Let me tell you a little about my experience with the APA, and I won't even go into the obvious rules issues I have.
I've been playing pool for over 40 years myself and played in the Busch League when it was first formed, owned a bar and supported it like a good APA'er. We had one league operator who had MS and due to his illness, we didn't
have playoffs the first year and of course no one in the area was qualified to go to the nationals. That was unfortunate, but we all understood why and there wasn't too many people upset. He gave up his franchise. The next LO
in our area skipped town with the final 4 weeks of the dues and because he didn't pay the powers to be in St.Louis again no one was qualified for the nationals and of course the APA did nothing to rectify the situation. The next
LO was like a "Hitler". He thought his shit didn't stink and that it was his way or the highway! A lot of people chose the highway! Teams broke up, whole divisions folded and again we weren't qualified for higher level tournaments!
The next guy was just as bad but was sneakier about it. My team went to Columbus to play in the State tournament. The state was run by the LO in Columbus who owned a vending company and one of the main bars playing in
their division. We had a player on our team who was a SL7 all year, paid his dues and played up until we had to play against his pet team, from his bar when the LO declared he was a "pro" and was disqualified. I called St. Louis
and talked to Larry Hubbart myself and Larry said he knew the player and he was a "top flight amateur" (his words) and was eligible. The LO said "HE WAS RUNNING THE STATE TOURNAMENT NOT LARRY HUBBART" and if we
wanted to continue, we would play without our "top flight amateur" or we would forfeit! I called St. Louis again and Larry Hubbart said that the LO had the final say on the subject, that he was in fact running the tournament, not
St. Louis. We ended up losing by one game due to this ruling and coming in second. When the trophy's were handed out I took ours and told the LO to go make a baby by his self, in not those words and we left. I quit the APA BS
for a few years and another LO came along and I decided to give them one more chance. At this point I owned a pool room instead of the bar and put together a team of fairly good players. Everyone but one player played up to
their handicap but we had one "ringer" who remained a SL2, Eugene Metz. About half way through the session the LO found out that Eugene had a nickname, "Clem" and that he had at one time been one of the most feared
money players in the world. Every other team in the league had several sandbaggers but because we had the infamous Clem on our roster we came under scrutiny. Everyones handicap was raised including 2 guys who were
actually a 2 and a 3! Neither one had a clue, but were nice guys and we wanted them as part of our team. We could only field a legal team (under the 23 rule) every other week because our lowest handicapped player was a
fireman and was at the firehouse every other week. On one of the weeks we knew we had to forfeit the last match, we had the option of playing either a weak 4 (the guy who should have been a 3) or a 5. The opposing team
captain said we had to play the 4 because our fireman, the 3 wasn't present even though he was on our roster. We called the LO and asked for a ruling and explained every detail to him, the opposing team captain weighed in
with his side as well! The LO said we could play the 5 and forfeit the last match. We won the other 4! When the paperwork came out for the next week it showed us with 5 losses. When I called the LO about the discrepancy he
told me that the other team protested and he sided with them at a later date! I argued that if he hadn't ruled that we could play the 5, we could have played the other player and we would have won at least 3 out of the 5
matches. He wouldn't budge! We dropped out of the league! Several years later, a customer of mine bought a new cue for himself and his wife and they pressured me into playing on their team in a different county and with a
different LO. Again they started raising our handicaps at the end of the session to the point where we could no longer field a legal team under the 23 rule. In the city tournament we had to forfeit the last match again and I had
to play a guy, who I happen to like very much, but I had to spot him 1 game even though he played professionally. That was my last straw with the APA and why I don't like the rules and system they have of fleecing the
players! And why I'm so vocal about the APA! I feel I've earned the right!
Sherm,
Just some thoughts.
You and I have gone back and forth on a few threads regarding APA. I definitely respect your opinion and also the amount of time you have put into the gameas a player, bar and room owner.
Your above post shows that you have has a long standing issue with the L.O.'s in your surrounding area. I don't know how far back that goes but I can see your mistrust for the league as a whole.
Is it possible that the teams that you put together were just too strong from the start to play within the 23 rule and the fault lies not only with the L.O. for raising your players, but also with you team for not realizing how strong your team was from the start.
You also admitted to keeping a 2 as a ringer because everyone else was doing it. You have called me nieve in the past but I highly doubt every team was doing it (just my opinion as i was not in your league). It was probably a few teams but those are the ones that you remember. My thought on this is simple. You were a bar owner, player, captain and yet you participated knowingly in the sandbagging. You most liekly carried alot of respect from other players in your area. To me you should have been part of a league solution, not part of the problem. Just my opinion. The only way to change the culture is to have the people that are respected begin the process. You could have done but choose not to.
Is it possible the current L.O. is better than the ones you had back then. Have you spoken to them. Before you tell everyone not to play, you should know what the current set up is. maybe it is better. would you even be able to recognize it if it was?
I understand your frustration about Larry not being able to overrule your L.O. at your state tournament. Unfortunely that is how I believe a franchise works. I don't know about franchise law but perhaps he was completely unable to do so (just a thought). Have you looked at it from that perspective
There have been many on here who have posted that they have a pretty good L.O. and seem to have a good time out and seem to get paid back enough (even if it is not 80 % or higher as some have suggensted other leagues pay back). But you seem to discount us as being nieve.
The APA has over 250,000 members that is a fact. You constantly post that the majority of the people who play in the APA don't like it but play out of neccessity. If over time, the majority of people don't like something, they will stop doing it, let alone recruit others to do it with them (as you claim is necessary to keep the league going.) Your logic around this is completely flawed.
As I said, i respect your opinions as someone who has been around the game for a long time but I believe in this case your opinion is jaded based on a series of events that happenend a long time ago that were out of your control.
I am sure we will debate on this topic again.
Leagueguy