Why is the APA so frowned upon?

Magyar19 said:
No league offers as much to gain as the APA. There are so many ways to get to Vegas and so many ways to make some money. All I hear is that it's "slop pool" and "everyone is overrated" from the local players that don't want to join. My counter to the first is always "Well the pro's don't call their shots", to which they usually reply "Well no one in it is a pro, are they?" I play in TAP also and yeah, almost everyone in TAP is rated a skill level below what they would be in the APA but if everyone is overrated, how is that unfair?
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I'm just going to get my popcorn and watch the responses.

Like anything else, some people like the APA and some don't.
The various leagues, in my opinion are competing for the same group of players who are willing to commit to playing a regular organized league. This "could" lead to some people saying one league is better than another as a recruiting tactic (stealing away of players from one league to the other).

It is my opinion that the "League Experience" is more dependent on the players that show up every week than which league one is playing in.

The great thing is; people have options. Some people only have one league system in their area but often there are still opportunities to start up a league if a sufficient number of players don't like the existing offerings.
 
midstroke said:
I enjoy playing apa for sure. But there is rules i dont agree with. My best bud and i been shooting for years together. And now if either one of us goes up in handicap we both cant play on current team on same night.
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That's another benefit to BCA. The same guys can play together season after season, regardless if ANY or ALL of thier averages raise.

The APA puts that cap on the averages so that you are FORCED to make a new team when a player's average makes the team go above the cap.

And the LO in the APA can raise an average for just about any reason.

The resulting dues puts more money in the LO's bank account.
 
Maniac said:
justadub,

Are you shi**ing me??? Are you serious??? I've played on teams (and won) our session championships MANY times and have NOT EVER ONCE received anything other than a cheap trophy. Are you talking about the last stop tourney before the Vegas trip or are you talking about the playoffs to determine who wins your division outright? By you saying "session championship" in your post, I am assuming your are talking about your division playoff finals. If this is the case, you really get a payout for that? We've only gotten a dust-collecting trophy for winning that!!!

Maybe my d*ckhead LO is even WORSE than I already knew he was :(.


Maniac
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No poop here, Maniac! :D

I'm talking about the summer session for our 12-team division. We win, we split about $800. We won the fall session last year, and got $104 per player, but I can't remember if it was 12 or 14 teams that session. I was rounding to $100 for simplicity. I expect the divisions that are significantly smaller get an appropriately smaller amount, tho I've not spoken with anyone from those divisions about it.

The number of teams participating determines the exact payout. I'll let ya know after Tuesday! (Hopefully I'll be able to tell you the winning payout, and not the second place amount...)

We don't get any $$$ for being one of the 4 winners of the Tri-Cup after each session, but those teams advance to the annual state Vegas-qualifier tournament, where everyone gets paid for each round they play in, including the first round. There is a tri-Cup for the Northern half of the LO's territory, and one for the Southern half. We have 7 leagues in the Northern half, I assume there is a similar number in the (more populated) Southern half.

All in all, it's a pretty decent way to play pool, at least for us lesser-beings, the league player. I don't agree with everything our LO does, and I'm not terribly fond of his people-skills. And yes, I openly wonder about a little favoritism for certain parts of the state (built-in when you live in Maine for anything, pool or politics and everything in-between) and certain players. Note I said "wonder". Nothing I've seen is blatant or obviously out-of-line. So that probably means it's not nearly as bad as it appears. Conclusion-jumping without any real facts is easy for any of us. But our LO runs a reasonably professional operation, and I don't begrudge him making a decent living doing it. I can see how much work he and his wife put into it. I'm not sure I'd like to tackle it, given the whining nature of pool players.
 
Lance Link said:
The resulting dues puts more money in the LO's bank account.
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This is very interesting to me, this fascination with how much the LO's make. People seem to be quite worried about it.

The LO puts up a sizeable amount of money for his territory. There is real risk in that. There is no guarantee the league will fly. Why should anyone begrudge an individual for being successful? (Again, if the LO in question is being a bad-guy, this is another argument alltogether.) Why do you care how much he puts into his bank account? Any more than you care about what your kids teacher gets paid. Or your doctor. Or your local police and fire responders.

Play pool, have fun. Or run your own business and let everyone else tell you how much money you should be allowed to make.
 
justadub said:
This is very interesting to me, this fascination with how much the LO's make. People seem to be quite worried about it.

The LO puts up a sizeable amount of money for his territory. There is real risk in that. There is no guarantee the league will fly. Why should anyone begrudge an individual for being successful? (Again, if the LO in question is being a bad-guy, this is another argument alltogether.) Why do you care how much he puts into his bank account? Any more than you care about what your kids teacher gets paid. Or your doctor. Or your local police and fire responders.

Play pool, have fun. Or run your own business and let everyone else tell you how much money you should be allowed to make.
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Your joking right? Players shouldn't care about the finances of their LO? How do you know if the LO is a bad guy if you don't check the finances (payouts vrs income)? I want the LO and every tournament promoter to make money. There will be no place for me to play if they don't. If the operator takes way too much in relation to payouts, they will fail. Perhaps not right away but they will fail. Someone will come along and treat the players better. Not all players are fools. Not even new ones.

Regarding the BCAPL. Lance knows of what he speaks. I play in the same league. The new rating system made me a 12 vrs the next player at 9. We choked the last night of play and finished second in the league. Our four man payout was over $600 for 12 weeks of play. First place was over $200 per. The weekly dues are $6.00 per player. $15 to BCAPL and $15 to the league operator. Once the tavern sponsorships are added in, it wound up being the highest payout percentage of any league I've played in.

This fall, I'll be playing in my first ever APA league. Really just a part time player. Sometime this year, I'll let you know about payouts from that league. It will be interesting to see how much of this continual APA bashing is justified and how much sour grapes!

Lyn
 
Lance Link said:
This past summer season, there were 6 teams playing. $400 team dues for the season times 6 teams equals $2400. An additional $670 collected from tavern fees brought the total to $3,036 (summer leagues are tough to fill). Guess how much was payed back to the players ?? $3,036 !!!!! AND LAST PLACE COLLECTED OVER $300 !!!!!

All I'm saying is that it's nice to know where our money goes...
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So , in this 100% payback situation , where is the league operators incentive to operate the league ? Is it a volunteer position ? Who pays for the paper this printout is on , and the computer it was calculated with ?

There's something your leaving out , somewhere . . .
 
IbeAnEngineer said:
Take a look at your league - figure out the percentage of teams that go to Vegas maybe 1 in 30 or 40. You will also find that certain teams or captains win a disproportionate amount of the the trips. Have you wondered why? .
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Because the Captains are Tournament Savvy . Give me two evenly matched teams , with similar rosters , and make me captain of one . Make anyone you'd like Captain of the other .
Does he know when to sacrifice ? Say they put up an s/l 6 in the second match - Do you use up your s/l 7 to beat him for sure , use your s/l 6 and hope for the best , or do you play your s/l 3 as a sacrifice loss , and pick up 3 s/l points you can use to climb over their next three players with ?
Do you come out for an early crush , and try to win the first three straight , or do you play slow in the first 3 matches , and try to push the last 2 matches into Sudden Death , where your high s/l's will have an advantage ?
Maybe that captain is just a better handicapper - and with this word I don't mean anything about skill levels or sandbagging - I mean he is a better gambler , with better instincts about who can beat who .
Maybe he even has a sense about which opposing players can be intimidated with Mosconi's famous "glaring expression of disdain" , causing them to lose all concentration in their game .
There's a lot more to a team match than just the individual player's ability:) .
 
Apa

I have personally been in APA for two years now and the main reasons I play are:

1. I have now gone to Vegas on APA dime 4 times. Twice for singles and twice for team events. My husband and/or I have qualified all 4 times to play and it is a BLAST! I don't care if I win or lose once we get there...the goal is to take the trip and make the best of it!

2. I enjoy playing several days a week and this allows me to literally play an entire evening with people for a mere $9. It's cheap!

3. I enjoy the local tournaments that our particular APA has every sessions. The payouts are not bad either...$500 for first. They also host doubles tournaments, which affords another chance to go to Vegas. (Haven't won that one yet!) Also, once a year, the City Cup (Vegas Qualifier) Pays $1600 to the winning team in addition to the trip to Vegas for all team members. Second place, $800....Third place $400 etc. In this City Cup, you only have to win 2 rounds as a team to get $100 for the team.

4. I would love to do BCA, but it died here in Atlanta. We used to be part of BCA back in Texas when we lived there and liked the format.

5. TAP here is very manipulated. They are more interested in showing a strong team at the National level, thus I believe that there is more sandbagging going on in that league than any other league in the world. A local TAP member once asked my husband and I to join his team and his selling point was, "I could keep you at a 4 for life and your wife would always be a 2." Well, since I am a 5 and my husband is SL7 in 8 ball and SL9 in 9 ball, you can imagine how much manipulation would be required to keep him as a SL4 in TAP. Truly, a turnoff and we will never be playing in that league.

APA is what it is. I use the time for practice and we often play in tournaments on the weekends. It's cheap and take it for what it is... a business that is has a plan to make money. Fortunately, our local franchise also gives back a portion of that money through tournaments and paid trips to Vegas.

Most of the tournaments here are not APA sanctioned, but they do handicap them according to APA handicaps.
 
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justadub said:
This is very interesting to me, this fascination with how much the LO's make. People seem to be quite worried about it.
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Cause when your paying in WAY more collectively than is getting payed back out , you kinda would like to know that it's all not just falling out of the envelope.

Our leagues are packed houses on thier nights , paying the same fees as everyone else generally yet some leagues are paying out thousands and some like us , maybe total of a couple hundred tops. (In our case)
 
one thing you also have to relize that just because you pay 10 dollars a week doesnt mean the mean the league operator gets the full 10 dollars a night....the national office gets a cut of the 10 dollars....then the L.O. puts some into travel fund...then they do have there own costs such as paper printer ink gas so on..
 
ridinda9 said:
Because the Captains are Tournament Savvy . Give me two evenly matched teams , with similar rosters , and make me captain of one . Make anyone you'd like Captain of the other .
Does he know when to sacrifice ? Say they put up an s/l 6 in the second match - Do you use up your s/l 7 to beat him for sure , use your s/l 6 and hope for the best , or do you play your s/l 3 as a sacrifice loss , and pick up 3 s/l points you can use to climb over their next three players with ?
Do you come out for an early crush , and try to win the first three straight , or do you play slow in the first 3 matches , and try to push the last 2 matches into Sudden Death , where your high s/l's will have an advantage ?
Maybe that captain is just a better handicapper - and with this word I don't mean anything about skill levels or sandbagging - I mean he is a better gambler , with better instincts about who can beat who .
Maybe he even has a sense about which opposing players can be intimidated with Mosconi's famous "glaring expression of disdain" , causing them to lose all concentration in their game .
There's a lot more to a team match than just the individual player's ability:) .
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You are right. Some captains are tournament savvy. And a lot of them also cheat. I am not saying everyone cheats but in my area a good percentage of the teams that go every year do.
 
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Holy Crap ! How big is your league ???

It's not that big. But every team that makes it to the Tri Cup get trophies or plaques. And at 8 people per team that adds up quickly. Some people don't like the trophies and some do just like the patches. The LO usually has a league meeting several times a year and everyone is invited for an open discussion while many people don't show up (then complain later) almost everything is open for discussion.
 
Good and Bad

- Don't bash the LO for running a business (no one forcing you to play)

- Sandbagging ( no one forcing you there, should be reported to LO or higher)

- Crazy ass rules they have are very lame !

- I agree with the guy about DQ'ing a team at Vegas (shouldn't get that far)

- I think generally there are more guns and knives compared to BCA

- Whoever called their LO a "Di&$head" , I hope he is not a forum member, LOL.

my 2 cents (one session under belt)
 
I don't understand pool players. Most feel like they deserve so much. Someone should start a league, tournament, or tour for their sole benefit. While giving them the opportunity to win some money have fun or whatever. But the people doing the work, investing their time and money should only make a small percentage what is brought in. Places have tournaments with added money but it's no where near what they take in from drink sales. Maybe the proprietors should open their books too. It's freaking ridiculous, if you don't like something don't play.
 
stumpie71 said:
Code: 
Holy Crap ! How big is your league ???

It's not that big. But every team that makes it to the Tri Cup get trophies or plaques. And at 8 people per team that adds up quickly. Some people don't like the trophies and some do just like the patches. The LO usually has a league meeting several times a year and everyone is invited for an open discussion while many people don't show up (then complain later) almost everything is open for discussion.
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Well we didn't get trophies either. :) We got a tiny plaque for the teams that moved on.

Trust me , we've done the math , the typical payouts in our area are less than 10% of the gross. There are virtually no perks so 90% is alot for fees ,paper and envelopes. :)

I'm not saying whose dirty, it seems like someone is in there somewhere.

The kicker is ,since I've been playing leagues down here , they've gotten smaller and smaller as dissatified teams have continued to drop out. You'd think that someone would re-evaluate the business. I understand its a franchise for the sole benefit of the LO but you gotta keep the customers coming back or it's lose lose. At one house , an 8 ball league I shot in that filled the house at one time opened last Tuesday with 4 teams. The positive side is that locally 3rd party ran tournies are matching numbers of league participation. People are realizing where there money is better spent. I can't see APA holding on much longer around here.
 
Sorry to hear that RRFIREBLADE. If you LO isn't paying out that does suck. It sounds like you have a crappy LO.
 
Here's my take

In the poolroom I play at( if that's what you wanna call it) they hold league night 2-3 times a week. And I know the room owner loves those nights cause he has a billiard supply store next door. Anyway the players come in take up half the tables. Two for their matches and the other 3 for practice tables, maybe more if it's a busy team night. And half are already drunk when the come in, so when the bud and bud light starts flowing it's like a damn circus. When all is said and done it's like a damn hurricane came to town. I'm with Manic in one if his previous posts. It's like a mini football game with players around the table with little to or no respect for the other people in the room or the room itself. When I started to play, I learned what I know from some old school guys. Guys that have been playing for 30+ years. In a place that had not one league. I miss those days. I know it's different in other areas, but it has left a bad taste in my mouth. Why would I want to play with people who can't respect the equipment or the other players around them. And I'm not a fan of the rating system either. Boy that 9 in 9ball the other night was not happy when I beat him like a drum, especially when his captin said I'd be a "weak" 7.
 
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