Why join the UPA?

[robertlipson]

Re: Re: Why Join the UPA?

[QUOTEOriginally posted by cardiac kid
Why don't you volunteer to be an unpaid member of the UPA Board of Directors? Let them hear your complaints first hand. If you have better ideas, speak up or as they say, forever hold your piece! [/QUOTE]

I agree with your philosophy, cardiac kid, but the UPA ain't going to get you there with its current practice of discrimination, questionable business practices, and beating up independent promoters. And every time the UPA places a stop sign in front of me, I will continue to strive towards a remedy. Then I will forever hold my piece.

ManlyShot [/B][/QUOTE]

Forgive me for laughing but you guys are either truly comic geniuses or you have coined an all time great Freudian slip. I believe the expression is "Speak now or forever hold your peace."

Either way you made my evening.

 

[cardiac kid]

Re: Re: Re: Why Join the UPA?

[QUOTEOriginally posted by cardiac kid


"speak up or as they say, forever hold your piece!"

Forgive me for laughing but you guys are either truly comic geniuses or you have coined an all time great Freudian slip. I believe the expression is "Speak now or forever hold your peace."

Either way you made my evening. [/QUOTE]

Hi Robert,

Upon rereading your answer, I almost fell of my chair! Wow, was Freud awfully smart.

Seriously, your fellow board member here in Rochester told me you brought up several excellent ideas in NYC. He enjoyed meeting you. The future of the UPA seems to be in good hands. Hopefully, you and the rest of the board will give manlyshot and others reasons to redirect their energy to more productive areas. I look forward to meeting you.

 

[jjinfla]

Quote Cardiac Kid:

Seriously, your fellow board member here in Rochester told me you brought up several excellent ideas in NYC. He enjoyed meeting you. The future of the UPA seems to be in good hands. Hopefully, you and the rest of the board will give manlyshot and others reasons to redirect their energy to more productive areas. I look forward to meeting you.
_________

What were those ideas kid?

And if the UPA does make a few corrections and get their ducks in line the pool world will have Manlyshot to thank. Without his voiced opinions it would have just been business as usual. There would have been no changes. Surely you realize that Cardiac kid. The squeaky wheel gets the grease.

I would rather promote the UPA than put it down but in the last year there really just has not been anything positive about it. Perhaps I missed it. Tell me what they have done in the last year that was for the good of the professional pool players.

Unfortunately Mr Lipson reminds me of Dr. D and the WPBA. You know what happened to Dr. D. don't you? But fortunately the good doctor's efforts has resulted in changes and now the WPBA is better than ever.

Jake

 

[manlyshot]

Let's cut to the chase

Cardiac Kid is pool enthusiast, and he is just as happy as a clam sitting on the rail inside Classic Billiards directing traffic. He is not a professional pool player or independent promoter and has not been injured by the UPA. The Five Banned Players are not railbirds or pool enthusiasts, and the UPA machine continues to segregate them, a business practice that is not only discriminatory, but is hurting men's professional pool.

Jake is obviously a man with intelligence and objective reasoning, and he has provided some excellent suggestions that the UPA should consider. The UPA should take heed and listen to folks like Jake.

Robert Lipson is on the board of directors for the UPA. He is also an intelligent and concerned UPA representative. He has opened the door to allow a constructive dialogue, which is quite admirable and appreciated, but he wants it behind closed doors.

Let's cut to the chase and tackle one issue.

Why is Earl Strickland, Troy Frank, Corey Deuel, Keith McCready, and Frankie Hernandez prohibited from competing in UPA-sanctioned tournaments because they will not sign the UPA contract?

Why can't they pay the $25 UPA tax at the commencement of tournaments, not sign a legally binding contract, and compete in a UPA-sanctioned event like every other pool player in the world?

Why did the UPA create a category called "touring pros" and segregate these Five Banned Players?

ManlyShot

 

[Joe T]

I'm guessing and I like all of those guys (a lot).
I'm guessing that the UPA would like all players to stand United and together as a package to show some loyalty to one another as well as the sport, forming a marketable product.
Having players of their caliber (not just joe shmo from anywhere) which is definately proven professionals, stand outside this united tour will make it tougher for the UPA to complete it's mission of forming an organized pro tour. So yes they improvised and discriminated against players that don't want to help them or the other numerous touring professionals.
What has any player lost by signing? Their right to go to another event that is in direct competition with this newly formed organization?
If we all stand together we have a chance to take a step up. If we all sit, bitch and split up, we'll stay right where we've been.

 

[manlyshot]

I'm guessing and I like all of those guys (a lot). I'm guessing that the UPA would like all players to stand United and together as a package to show some loyalty to one another as well as the sport, forming a marketable product.

Here's what the UPA likes, Joe:

For and in consideration of the mutual covenants and promises herein contained and in consideration of the UPA’s grant of playing privileges, Joe Tucker hereby grants to the UPA the right and permission to copyright, use, reuse, publish, broadcast, republish and rebroadcast Joe Tucker's appearances in billiard tournaments and in Tour events. Joe Tucker further grants to the UPA the use of his name, signature and likeness in conjunction with said billiard tournaments, Tour events and for the purpose of raising funds, which are directed to the promotion of the UPA and its stated function. This grant includes on air broadcast of said events by network, independent or cable television stations or their affiliates, internet productions, home video reproductions, promotional clips, or other forms of broadcast of billiard tournaments and Tour events, as well as marketing of Tour event literature to include Joe Tucker's pictures and tour posters. Joe Tucker's agrees that all media rights and revenues there from belong to, and are the sole property of the UPA. Joe Tucker waives any right to inspect or approve such media product, programming and production regardless of use.


Joe Tucker represents that he has extraordinary and unique skills and abilities as a billiard player and agrees that the services to be rendered hereunder cannot be replaced and that such loss of services cannot be adequately compensated in money damages. As such, in consideration thereof, Joe Tucker agrees that in the event of a breach by Joe Tucker of any provision of this agreement, the UPA may obtain from any court having jurisdiction, such equitable relief as may be appropriate, including an injunction prohibiting any further breach of this agreement, in addition to any other remedies which may be available.

Now substitute Joe Tucker's name with, just as an example, Earl Strickland's.

You may not have any problem signing that contract, Joe, but it poses potential problems for others.

ManlyShot

 

[Joe T]

I know Earl definately has much more to offer when his name is being used rather than mine. Do you think it would hurt Earl or any professional player to give the UPA the right to use their name when promoting the tour or events. I don't, doesn't seem to hurt any of the women getting promoted in a professional manner. I think it would probably help top players more than hurt them?

Joe T

 

[manlyshot]

Do you think it would hurt Earl or any professional player to give the UPA the right to use their name when promoting the tour or events. I don't, doesn't seem to hurt any of the women getting promoted in a professional manner. I think it would probably help top players more than hurt them

Joe Tucker is a professional pool player who has definitely contributed a lot to the sport of pool, an author, an inventor, excellent Joss Tour director, and you are a nice guy, too.

The UPA contract serves only the UPA. Comparing men's pool to men's golf and now the men's pool with women's pool is an apples-and-oranges analogy (IMO).

ManlyShot

 

[manlyshot]

Do you think it would hurt Earl or any professional player to give the UPA the right to use their name when promoting the tour or events?

Joe T, what is the UPA giving to Earl, or any professional player, in return? The UPA has no package to offer its members as it currently exists, and yet, they require all professional pool players to sign on the dotted line or forever hold their PEACE.

But to segregate the Five Banned Players from participation not only hurts Keith McCready, Troy Frank, Earl Strickland, Corey Deuel, and Frankie Hernandez, it hurts the UPA.

The door swings both ways, Joe T.

ManlyShot

 

[Joe T]

Thanks for the compliments, wish we could have met this past weekend. I'm sure you're a nice person also.

Golf may or is a definate stretch but I don't think the Woman's tour is that much of a stretch and even if it is. Take out that comparision and I still ask do you think it would help or hurt players to have their names and pictures used to promote the tour or special events?

 

[cardiac kid]

Hi Joe,

You're pissing into the wind. Guys like manlyshot would rather sit on the sidelines and complain than take an positive active part in building or rebuilding a mens professional tour. I was not happy with the way things were going with the UPA. After having lunch with Teddy G, Mad Max and Frank Alvarez, I was feeling much better about what will go on in the future. Some of the input from posters here at AZ and elsewhere had reached them. It was passed on to the rest of the BOD. They, along with many other members, have been listening for months. Lets not forget, it's their future too.

I got a chuckle from manlyshot regarding me being a railbird. I took out my day-timer and figured that I have already travelled twenty five thousand miles this year to attend tournaments from coast to coast. As you know me, I am not a threat to win a UPA level tournament yet. I may never be. I'll keep practicing, playing and learning. I think "gremlin" called it OJT for players like me. My game has improved quite a bit. So have my competitors! And they seem to be younger, not older every day.

I also have a copy of "The Contract". I'm trying to get a similar document from a local top PBA pro bowler. I'll bet our local touring golf pro signed a contract just like it with the PGA! I wonder if he just showed up at a PGA or PBA event as a non-member and wanted to play, would they just let him in? Even if he offered to pay the entry fee? Even if he offered to pay a one time membership fee? Not a chance. This is the real world, not a dream! Thats what sticking together got those PBA, PGA, WPBA, MLB, NBA and other sports professionals their status. I guess you would call the UPA a players union too.

 

[manlyshot]

Thanks for the compliments, wish we could have met this past weekend.

The tournament was packed, full of action, and with the combined prize monies and Calcutta, many a pool player left the pool room with a smile on their face, except maybe Frankie.

Originally posted by Joe T
Golf may or is a definate stretch but I don't think the Woman's tour is that much of a stretch and even if it is. Take out that comparision and I still ask do you think it would help or hurt players to have their names and pictures used to promote the tour or special events?

The men need to obtain legal counsel before they sign the UPA legally binding contract. Those two provisions were an example of the legal mumbo jumbo contained in the UPA contract passed out at commencement of tournaments like fliers.

Earl Strickland and others may have mixed feelings about wearing a UPA patch on their arm, promoting an organization that places stop signs in front of them and has banned them from participation.

I think Earl Strickland is giving up a lot more than the UPA is offering him in return for use of his name and everything associated with it. It took Earl a lot of years and MONEY to get to where he is at today. Should he be so willing to just give it away for free to the UPA when the UPA offers nothing in return?

ManlyShot

 

[jjinfla]

Is that the contract that the UPA wants players to sign?

My wife read it and said if I signed anything like that she would break both my kneecaps and impale me on my cuestick.

What are the mutual covenants they refer to? Seems all the Pros are getting is to be able to play. The UPA gets everything else.
Seems like a very one-sided contract - all in favor of the UPA.

If a player becomes popular and he is being interviewed by the media then any compensation he might get will go right to the UPA with nothing going to the player.

In other words, it goes right to Charlie.

How is the UPA representing the players? Seems to me all they are representing is the UPA.

Every baseball player, football player, basketball player, etc, has to sign a contract before they can play for the team. Just remember that all these players get agents who go over the contracts before the player signs anything. Does "show me the money" mean anything to you?

In this contract Joe Tucker allows the UPA to use his image and signature to endorse any product the UPA chooses, anyway they want, and Joe has no say on it. If Joe is anti alcohol or tobacco the UPA can use his image to endorse those products and Joe can't do a thing about it. Nor can he derive any compensation for their use of it.

I can't believe that Mika and Archer signed something like this.

Sounds like anyone who would sign this would be nothing more than an indentured servant. And might even prevent them from playing in a tournament run by the Seminoles.

Would that get your attention Joe? Being told that you couldn't enter a $100,000 added tournament because it is in direct competition with the UPA? And if you did the UPA could take you to court and take all your winnings?

Joe, visit an attorney with the contract, and have him read the contract and advise you of his opinion. You should be able to find an attorney to do this for $50 - $75. it will be an eye opener and give you peace of mind.

And Joe keep in mind it is not what the UPA "says" to you that is important. The only important thing is what is written in the contract that you sign.

Jake

 

[cardiac kid]

"I can't believe that Mika and Archer signed something like this."

Not only Archer and Mika but Rodney Morris, Jose Parica, Shawn Putnam, Nick Varner, Ronnie Wiseman, Danny Harriman, Danny Hewitt, Niels Feijen, Luc Salvas, Double J, Charlie Williams and on and on. Are all those guys ignorant? I'm not sure of the rest of the Asians but I believe Efren and Django are signed members. Please correct me on this. Maybe we are all missing something obvious!

"Sounds like anyone who would sign this would be nothing more than an indentured servant."

If we get a strong, well paying tour you might add well paid to that. Isn't that what all professional athletes are? The only out for them is to retire, be traded or fired. We haven't reached that point yet. We may never reach it.

"And might even prevent them from playing in a tournament run by the Seminoles."

Everyone seems to be making lots out of the support of the Seminole Native American Tribes. My question is, whats in it for them? You can be sure it isn't a gift. They expect us to return some of our money to them. Perhaps by staying at and gambling at their casinos or supporting and promoting their "tour". Believe me, anyone who helps promote the game of billiards is welcome. But, as I remember it, there is an old saying "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts". I hope I got that one right Robert. The Oneida Native American Tribe supported the Joss Tour for several years. The Turning Stone Casino Tournaments were some of the best I've attended. When they closed the spigot two years ago, the Joss Tour has still to recover the loss of participants.

 

[Darren S.]

Minny Shot,

Give it a break. I can't even keep up with all your untruth. All this is because you don't get along with Charlie? Wow. If you put this much energy into your game you would be a world champion.

I'm so grateful that others are finaly starting to post up and put your arguments to rest. You have to realize that the more you cry without solutions or practical insight you just seem like a big baby with an axe to grind.

Get real. Try calling the UPA and ask Frank Alvarez to get into contact with you. He will. He's a stand up guy and I'm sure you two would have a nice chat.

 

[jjinfla]

Cardiac Kid,

keep in mind that an attorney can not serve two masters.

The attorneys work for the UPA, therefore the UPA is their master, so to speak, and they are legally bound to do the best they can for teh UPA. Even if they work pro-bono.

What is everyone so afraid about paying an attorney to look over the contract before they sign it?

And if the Seminoles do get into pool I sure as hell hope they make money at it. That is just good business sense. If you work for free then you better be independently wealthy or just like doing volunteer work. Otherwise you are just a fool.

Jake

 

[manlyshot]

Minny Shot, Give it a break. I can't even keep up with all your untruth. All this is because you don't get along with Charlie? Wow. If you put this much energy into your game you would be a world champion.

You have a very distinctive prose, Darren S. Are you fluent in two languages?

You have incinuated that Charlie must have beat me out of my money. To be quite honest with you, I have never seen Charlie Williams gamble in my life.

Charlie Williams, the self-appointed president of the UPA, is a world champion.

I'm so grateful that others are finaly starting to post up and put your arguments to rest. You have to realize that the more you cry without solutions or practical insight you just seem like a big baby with an axe to grind.

I have exhausted my practical insight. I have visions of Five Banned Players vs. UPA dancing in my head.

Originally posted by Darren S.
Get real. Try calling the UPA and ask Frank Alvarez to get into contact with you. He will. He's a stand up guy and I'm sure you two would have a nice chat.

You must be a little new around here, Darren S. I've called the UPA. I have been to their website and sent e-mails. And you are right, Frank Alvarez is a stand-up guy, but he is the UPA public relations man and doesn't make decisions. He does what he is told to, only after receiving instructions from the folks behind the curtain.

ManlyShot

 

[Ken in CT]

UPA contract

Jake,

I can't believe you are inquiring about the UPA contract after all this time. I offered several months ago to email a copy to anyone who wanted one. I have several copies left and will email one to you when I return to Connecticut.

I guess you haven't seen the worst parts yet.

I'm in Fl at this time arranging to sell my home but I may be returning tomorrow.
Ken

 

[manlyshot]

And if the Seminoles do get into pool I sure as hell hope they make money at it. That is just good business sense. If you work for free then you better be independently wealthy or just like doing volunteer work.

The Seminole Tribe of Florida enjoys a sterling reputation in the pool industry. Ask anybody who has ever attended one of their events.

The Seminoles are not the only Tribal Nation interested in pool. Timing is everything.

ManlyShot

 

[manlyshot]

Re: UPA contract

I can't believe you are inquiring about the UPA contract after all this time. I guess you haven't seen the worst parts yet.

Here's another clause only benefitting the UPA and not the pool player.

It is the function of the UPA to promote the sport of pocket billiards for men and to arrange for sponsors and/or co-sponsors for professional tournaments and Tour Events. The UPA shall also create and design such trademarks, service marks, logos, graphics, and other symbols to be utilized in identifying UPA Tour Events and to obtain public and media recognition of Tour Events. The UPA retains the rights to such trademarks, service marks, logos, graphics and other symbols and shall have the right to enter into such marketing and/or licensing agreements with third parties that it deems appropriate and all funds derived from such activities shall be the exclusive property of the UPA to be used as the UPA deems appropriate.

I have no idea what this means, "as may be in effect from time to time."

The UPA agrees that it will not knowingly sponsor, co-sponsor or sanction any professional billiards tournament or event that does not comply with UPA equipment specifications, as may be in effect from time to time.

In other words, if the pool player doesn't comply, the UPA will take you to court and place a judgment on you.

Any controversy or claim arising out of or relating to this Agreement, or any breach thereof, shall be settled in Orlando, Florida, in accordance with the Rules of the American Arbitration Association, and judgment upon the award may be entered in any court having jurisdiction thereof.

Must have been a group waiver for the 2003 U.S. Open.

Pool player agrees to compete only in those events that are sanctioned or recognized by the UPA unless the UPA grants a waiver allowing the Player to participate in non-UPA sanctioned, or non-UPA recognized events. A waiver will only be granted by showing of good cause, and approval by the Board of Directors of the UPA.

Thus, a layperson needs counsel before signing any legally binding contract, especially one that is poorly written with unintelligible clauses, doesn't look out for the pool player's interests, and could place the pool player in a legal nightmare.

These legally binding contracts prepared by three UPA pro bono lawyers are handed out at commencements of tournament like fliers. Signing this document places the pool player in harm's way, and the pool player should not sign any contract without having benefit of counsel.

There is nothing in the contract, as currently written, that benefits the pool player.

ManlyShot