Why No More High Ranked US Women Pro Players?

[ChrisinNC]

Yes, I realize there are not many top ranked US men pros either as opposed to the 20th century, but apparently at least there’s enough talent that we somehow managed to win 2 recent Mosconi Cups. That’s certainly not the case with the women, who would not be able to assemble any kind of competitive team to challenge the top Europeans or the top Asian players. That certainly has not held true for women’s pro golf or women’s pro tennis. The obvious easy explanation is that there’s no financial incentive to aspire to becoming a female pro pool player, but that hasn’t held back the slew of top female International pro pool players.

Even though the $ purses were limited, the WPPA tour thrived through the 1980s and 1990s, with 20+ scheduled tournaments per year, many of them televised on ESPN. Even though they weren’t shown live, most of the general public wasn’t aware of that. That number drastically dwindled in the last 20 years to just a select few tournaments per year for the past 10+ years, with virtually no TV coverage.

Until the mid-1990s invasion of Allison Fisher, the US women dominated being among the best pool players in the world. From Ruth McGinnis, Dorothy Wise, Jean Balukus, Robin Dodson, Loree Jon Jones and Jeanette Lee. That has not been the case in the last 25 years. The most gifted young players such as, for example, Tiffany Nelson, Mary Rakin, Sarah Rousey, just haven’t been able to crack that top echelon of Asian and European players. Obviously, due to the lack of ability to make a living, some have made the decision to move on to other careers.

Looking at the top Fargo rated female players in the world, Jennifer Beretta is the highest rated American player at #28 and most of the top 10 rated American players are age 40-and-over, including Lorree Jon in her mid-50s. Realistically, all are most likely on the decline in regards to their pool potential.

The two noted exceptions being 42nd rated Taylor Hansen (22 years old) and 53rd rated April Larsen (21 years old). Let’s hope that both these young ladies can prove to be the exception and that their games will continue to develop to eventually challenge the top female players in the world. I realize that’s a lot of weight on their shoulders, but hopefully they can serve as an example for other young female American players to strive for pool excellence.

If anyone can shed any info on either of those two fine young players in regards to the bright starts to their careers and their potential to break through, or any other up and coming young female players, myself and I’m sure others here would love to hear about them.

 

[straightline]

Pool was never a priority for the average American - women's pool even further down the list. The rest of the world has gene pools going back centuries. The ethic in the US is do our work and don't bother us. How is something like pool going to grow?

 

[SBC]

The top female pro in the US would make what without a real WPBA tour?
Maybe 40k a year....
You can make that washing dishes and driving an Uber part time.
No reason to be a lady pro.

Heck we don't even have the half dozen NYC women pretending to be "pros" anymore!

 

[Geosnookery]

Reanne Evans is the word’s top woman billiards player...she plays Snooker. Many Chinese women start in Snooker and then drift into Pool. It’s difficult for an American woman to compete without the snooker infrastructure and coaching. The gap will only increase as the popularity of Snooker and Chinese 8 ball in Asia mushrooms.

Allison Fisher and Reanne Evans also had a big advantage learning their skills in the UK. Geography, or lack of it. Travel time between major cities is a couple hours by train. It’s easy to be in Sheffield one weekend and then Manchester the next. Top players are competing in non-ranking local tournaments on a regular basis. Evans plays top ranking men’s snooker players. In contrast, a natural talent like Jennifer Barreta just doesn’t have the same opportunities. Jennifer is a great player but would be even greater if playing and learning from the world’s best very week.

 

[sjm]

The training available to the top Asian women has produced an entire generation of Asian superstars. Some of them are well known, like Siming Chen, Han Yu, and Rubilen Amit, but there are another dozen that are stone cold killers. It must also be noted that to compete against the most elite, one must play in Asia, where the top events are staged. Few, if any, of the American women pros of today, choose to play in Asia, for much the same reason as the American men --- the expenses are just too high relative to the earnings available and the competition is too stiff.

Jennifer Barretta, who has the highest Fargo rating of any American woman, was mentioned in the initial post. She has had a nice career, and was a top 10 ranked player over ten years ago even when practically every star of the game played on the WPBA tour. She still plays at a very high level, having beat both Tony Chohan (Fargo 750) and Joe Korsiak (Fargo 715) at the 2020 Derby City Classic 9-ball event. Along with rising Russian star Kristina Tkach, she reached Round 6 in that event, with both being eliminated in that round. They were the only two women to get that far, despite the presence of other women.

That said, this thread seems to focus on what to expect of the next generation of American lady pros. My opinion is that none of the young American ladies have shown the potential to be a force on the World scene. Hence, the premise of the thread is true. In my opinion, America doesn't have anyone that shows the kind of potential of a Kristina Tkach, who has a chance to be a major force on the international scene. Although the WPBA still sometimes features players such as Allison Fisher, Kelly Fisher, Loree Jon Jones and Ga Young Kim, the tour is not the training ground it once was for building one's pedigree, and this concerns me.

This is one of those times where I'd like to be wrong, but I don't see the next generation of American women pros as capable of doing much damage on the international competitive scene anytime soon.

 

[Black-Balled]

The two noted exceptions being 42nd rated Taylor Hansen (22 years old) and 53rd rated April Larsen (21 years old). Let’s hope that both these young ladies can prove to be the exception and that their games will continue to develop to eventually challenge the top female players in the world. I realize that’s a lot of weight on their shoulders, but hopefully they can serve as an example for other young female American players to strive for pool excellence.

Ive played one of them and from my experience, the gap to a simeng-level player is effectively impossible to close.

IMO, difference between me/ her was about same as me/ orcullo. Yeah, I could get good enough to play like dennis, but I wouldn't really consider that to be a realistic goal.

 

[ChrisinNC]

Ive played one of them and from my experience, the gap to a simeng-level player is effectively impossible to close.

IMO, difference between me/ her was about same as me/ orcullo. Yeah, I could get good enough to play like dennis, but I wouldn't really consider that to be a realistic goal.

I appreciate your opinion, but I’m a little confused - You seem to be equating one of these young players you played with Orcollo but not with Siming. You don’t think Orcollo could beat Siming?

 

[ChrisinNC]

The training available to the top Asian women has produced an entire generation of Asian superstars. Some of them are well known, like Siming Chen, Han Yu, and Rubilen Amit, but there are another dozen that are stone cold killers. It must also be noted that to compete against the most elite, one must play in Asia, where the top events are staged. Few, if any, of the American women pros of today, choose to play in Asia, for much the same reason as the American men --- the expenses are just too high relative to the earnings available and the competition is too stiff.

Jennifer Barretta, who has the highest Fargo rating of any American woman, was mentioned in the initial post. She has had a nice career, and was a top 10 ranked player over ten years ago even when practically every star of the game played on the WPBA tour. She still plays at a very high level, having beat both Tony Chohan (Fargo 750) and Joe Korsiak (Fargo 715) at the 2020 Derby City Classic 9-ball event. Along with rising Russian star Kristina Tkach, she reached Round 6 in that event, being eliminated in that round. They were the only two women to get that far, despite the presence of other women.

That said, this thread seems to focus on what to expect of the next generation of American lady pros. My opinion is that none of the young American ladies have shown the potential to be a force on the World scene. Hence, the premise of the thread is true. In my opinion, America doesn't have anyone that shows the kind of potential of a Kristina Tkach, who has a chance to be a major force on the international scene. Although the WPBA still sometimes features players such as Allison Fisher, Kelly Fisher, Loree Jon Jones and Ga Young Kim, the tour is not the training ground it once was for building one's pedigree, and this concerns me.

This is one of those times where I'd like to be wrong, but I don't see the next generation of American women pros as capable of doing much damage on the international competitive scene anytime soon.

Stu, I was anticipating you would respond with your opinion / expertise on this topic, and I figured it wasn’t going to be very promising.

Hypothetically, what about if by some miracle we have a young prodigy like Jean come along again, who gets the best instruction available, who regularly practices and competes with top US male players, and who practices regularly on a brutally tough table like a 10-footer or a Chinese 8-Ball table?

Would that young player still basically have to move to Asia and compete for years against their top players to have any shot at getting their game to a Siming Chen level?

 

[skogstokig]

Stu, I was anticipating you would respond with your opinion / expertise on this topic, and I figured it wasn’t going to be very promising.

Hypothetically, what about if by some miracle we have a young prodigy like Jean come along again, who gets the best instruction available, who regularly practices and competes with top US male players, and who practices regularly on a brutally tough table like a 10-footer or a Chinese 8-Ball table?

Would that young player still basically have to move to Asia and compete for years against their top players to have any shot at getting their game to a Siming Chen level?

i think so, yes. and it's not the tables, it's the opposition. take an american girl and raise her in manila pool rooms and you might get a player as good as chezka centeno. she has been toughened by constant action, not on snooker tables, but on american tables. chezka is 21 years, top 7 and a fast rising star.

siming chen did play snooker at first, but switched to american pool while being coached by... wu chia-ching. hard to replicate those conditions. then of course, for both siming and chezka goes that none of their success would be possible without extreme talent and dedication.

 

[sjm]

Stu, I was anticipating you would respond with your opinion / expertise on this topic, and I figured it wasn’t going to be very promising.

Hypothetically, what about if by some miracle we have a young prodigy like Jean come along again, who gets the best instruction available, who regularly practices and competes with top US male players, and who practices regularly on a brutally tough table like a 10-footer or a Chinese 8-Ball table?

Would that young player still basically have to move to Asia and compete for years against their top players to have any shot at getting their game to a Siming Chen level?

I'm not sure they'd have to move to Asia, but they'd likely have to play in the major Asian-based events to fully develop their pedigrees. There are other paths, but they are far more difficult, and they rely not only on good instruction, hard work and good practice habits but also on frequent access to both a) tough competitions and b) super-tough opponents at an early age. The great ones nearly always post major victories by the time they are teenagers.

The three most noteworthy American women pros of the past generation are, arguably, Jean Balukas, Loree Jon Jones and Jeanette Lee. Each reached world class level very early. Jean was a champion by the age of 12, Loree Jon by the age of 15, and Jeanette Lee by about 19. All had won major titles before they reached drinking age. Jean and Loree Jon both had fathers that owned and operated a pool room, ensuring that they were around pool at a very early age. Jeanette had a very special practice partner and mentor in the legendary Gene Nagy when she was still a teenager. These three were regularly mixing it up with the best woman players of their era before their twentieth birthday, and all of them practiced with some of the top men. Among American women, of whom can we say the same in this generation? Top women's events are few and far between these days in America, and they tend not to offer world-class fields. This is a handicap that's not easily overcome for today's new crop of American women pros. If an American woman works hard enough and develops skills to the point that she's regularly cashing in men's events, she can definitely build a very strong pedigree right here in the United States but it's a tall order and the deck is stacked against her because making financial ends meet won't be easy.

It's interesting to compare the training ground available in America to that of the twenty two year old Russian phenom Kristina Tkach, who has been a force to be reckoned with for about three years now. She came out of Johan Ruijsink's world-renowned academy in Russia. So did Fedor Gorst and Ruslan Chinakhov, who I think we can assume are among her influences and who helped ensure that she had players around her to push her to a higher level. Seemingly following the Jasmin Ouschan roadmap, Kristina has played Eurotour events for many years, competes in the European Championships. and also competes in some events in America. Although Kristina has yet to make a big splash in the major WPA sanctioned Asian based events, her pedigree has been developed well, and she has managed to test herself against strong competition on a very regular basis, so the future looks very bright for her.

Finally, a Balukas level prodigy could possibly come along one day, but, unless she's willing to pay her dues in the top Worldwide women's events, she'll probably need to use the American men's pool scene to develop and raise her game to the level where she can even think about competing with players like Han Yu and Siming Chen. It might happen, but then again it might not. The American women pool pros have as much potential for greatness as anyone else, but their path to greatness is a difficult one which we must all strive to improve.

 

[Black-Balled]

I appreciate your opinion, but I’m a little confused - You seem to be equating one of these young players you played with Orcollo but not with Siming. You don’t think Orcollo could beat Siming?

I know what I am saying; what in the hell is wrong with the rest of you people? (Lol)

I thought it clear:
I equated gender to gender and opined anyone above not named Chen or orcullo is not going to feature in talks of top pros.

My experience suggested there is a comparable skill difference between me/ orcullo and me/ the one I played.

I want no piece of Chen.

Chen wants no piece of orcullo.

 

[skogstokig]

last time i checked siming was pushing 800. i don't see an orcullo matchup impossible, give
it a year or so. her trajection is nothing short of miraculous

 

[Black-Balled]

last time i checked siming was pushing 800. i don't see an orcullo matchup impossible, give
it a year or so. her trajection is nothing short of miraculous

She could certainly win a short set occasionally, but she can't hit em like robocop outside the practice zone.

 

[iusedtoberich]

There hasn't been a high ranked US women since before Alison Fisher and Karen Corr dominated every tournament for 20 years trading first and second place. Once they got old, the flame went to Asia.

 

[iusedtoberich]

The opportunity for US women players to play against top tier competition is plentiful: They can play in any men's (open) tournament. They chose not too, except for a very small handful.

 

[ChrisinNC]

There hasn't been a high ranked US women since before Alison Fisher and Karen Corr dominated every tournament for 20 years trading first and second place. Once they got old, the flame went to Asia.

They dominated for more like 15 years, then the WPBA tournaments virtually disappeared.

 

[sjm]

last time i checked siming was pushing 800. i don't see an orcullo matchup impossible, give
it a year or so. her trajection is nothing short of miraculous

My opinion is that Dennis, who prevailed 120-119 in his last marathon match against Shane, would wipe the floor with Siming in any long match.

With due respect for an exceptional player whom I've watched numerous times, I don't think Siming's Fargo accurately reflects her level of play. She has gone back and forth with Han Yu for the WPA #1 women's ranking in the last year or two and yet Han Yu is just a Fargo 772. In my book, they are dead even, so the twenty five point differential is very hard to fathom.

Siming had an almost dead even challenge match with Donny Mills (Fargo 752), where the sets were 21-19 and 21-20, both going to Siming but both nailbiters.

Siming's got the same Fargo as Skyler Woodward, Derby City 9-ball champ and 2-time Mosconi MVP --- does that make any sense? She'd have no chance against Skyler in a long race. Her Fargo is higher than that of Justin Bergman, but she'd never beat him in a long match, either. Skyler and Justin are two of America's three best players. Based on Fargo, SVB (omitting the retired Mike Dechaine) is the only American man who would be favored to beat Siming, but who in their right mind would believe that to be true in reality?

If the primary aspects of excellence in rotation pool are a) the break, b) ball pocketing, c) position play, d) defense, e) kicking/jumping, and f) general tactical conceptualization, I'd rate Orcullo as better than Siming in all six areas of the game. You can give her all the time you like to develop, but my opinion is that her game will never rise even close to the level at which Orcullo's sits presently.

 

[briankenobi]

Here is one other thing to consider. Siming when dead even with Donnie Mills. Donnie Mills is not a top level mens pro. I think most people would rate him mid to low level pro. (still would wipe the floor with most league players) So if she couldn't dominate a low to mid level male pro, who is to think she could compete with a top level mens pro? She players really good and could also beat most league players handily, but she is just not at that level IMO.

 

[skip100]

With the (admittedly important) exception of Shane Van Boening, the American men aren't doing much better.

 

[sparkle84]

If the primary aspects of excellence in rotation pool are a) the break, b) ball pocketing, c) position play, d) defense, e) kicking/jumping, and f) general tactical conceptualization, I'd rate Orcullo as better than Siming in all six areas of the game. You can give her all the time you like to develop, but my opinion is that her game will never rise even close to the level at which Orcullo's sits presently.

+1. There's reasons why women can't beat men in just about any sport you care to name. I'm not being sexist here, it's just a fact. I don't claim to know why that is but it's pretty clear that it's a fact. Kristina Tkach was asked if a women could ever be the best player in the world and she looked like she thought the question was ridiculous. Her answer can be found here