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Why Object Ball Last?
- Thread starter Okie
- Start date
My dad could whoop your dad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
Get real people...
Cue ball last allows you to stroke with a LOT of confidence. I tend to grab the cue a lot as if to guide it in some forced way. Looking at the cue ball last helps a lot with this. However, sometimes I stroke and feel like a champion only to watch the object ball be driven firmly into the rail.
The first time I witnessed the stroke confidence I feel looking at the cue ball was the first time I saw John Barton play. His faith in his alignment was so strong he stroked with FULL confidence. I watched and thought...that's how a person should hit shots. Not cautiously and carefully...with full confidence! I tried CTE/Pro1 but never worked on it enough to incorporate it into my game. But looking at the cue ball makes me have full confidence when I stroke. Interestingly enough when I spoke with Mr Shuffett about Pro1 he noted that he spends about 80% of his time focused on the cue ball.
We also have video evidence of Mr Archer saying that a big mistake of amateurs is to spend too little attention to the cue ball (not an exact quote). These leads me to think my time looking at the cue ball must increase. IMO you can build confidence in your stroke and get immediate feedback when your setup/alignment is off. In time your alignment process will improve due to good immediate feedback.
Thoughts?
Ken
p.s. stop bickering...no one is gonna give in to the other so just stow it!
Get real people...
Cue ball last allows you to stroke with a LOT of confidence. I tend to grab the cue a lot as if to guide it in some forced way. Looking at the cue ball last helps a lot with this. However, sometimes I stroke and feel like a champion only to watch the object ball be driven firmly into the rail.
The first time I witnessed the stroke confidence I feel looking at the cue ball was the first time I saw John Barton play. His faith in his alignment was so strong he stroked with FULL confidence. I watched and thought...that's how a person should hit shots. Not cautiously and carefully...with full confidence! I tried CTE/Pro1 but never worked on it enough to incorporate it into my game. But looking at the cue ball makes me have full confidence when I stroke. Interestingly enough when I spoke with Mr Shuffett about Pro1 he noted that he spends about 80% of his time focused on the cue ball.
We also have video evidence of Mr Archer saying that a big mistake of amateurs is to spend too little attention to the cue ball (not an exact quote). These leads me to think my time looking at the cue ball must increase. IMO you can build confidence in your stroke and get immediate feedback when your setup/alignment is off. In time your alignment process will improve due to good immediate feedback.
Thoughts?
Ken
p.s. stop bickering...no one is gonna give in to the other so just stow it!
Speaking on Topic!
The imediate feedback was one thing I noticed and liked right away. I always try to be a realist and admit when I DOG a shot by raising up or getting alligator arm. In the past there have been times when I was not sure why I missed a certain shot in competition. That puts me on tilt quicker than anything. I can handle it if I know I dogged it but not being sure really messes up my mind.
When looking at the cue ball as I stroke, I get an instant read as soon as the ball leaves the cue tip. I see the spin or skid or lack there of. I feel like I can tell WHY on my misses a lot better now.
Johnny Archer's description of his aiming process in the TAR interview was very valuable to me. It basicaly reinforced the aiming process I was taught and should not depend on which ball you are looking at when you pull the trigger.
The new or placebo effect has worn off now but I am still liking it. I have become more complacent in my practice and the shot making has dropped off. In competition when the heat is on I can still depend on it and am still surprising myself with my accuracy and cue ball control on hard shots.
The imediate feedback was one thing I noticed and liked right away. I always try to be a realist and admit when I DOG a shot by raising up or getting alligator arm. In the past there have been times when I was not sure why I missed a certain shot in competition. That puts me on tilt quicker than anything. I can handle it if I know I dogged it but not being sure really messes up my mind.
When looking at the cue ball as I stroke, I get an instant read as soon as the ball leaves the cue tip. I see the spin or skid or lack there of. I feel like I can tell WHY on my misses a lot better now.
Johnny Archer's description of his aiming process in the TAR interview was very valuable to me. It basicaly reinforced the aiming process I was taught and should not depend on which ball you are looking at when you pull the trigger.
The new or placebo effect has worn off now but I am still liking it. I have become more complacent in my practice and the shot making has dropped off. In competition when the heat is on I can still depend on it and am still surprising myself with my accuracy and cue ball control on hard shots.
The imediate feedback was one thing I noticed and liked right away. I always try to be a realist and admit when I DOG a shot by raising up or getting alligator arm. In the past there have been times when I was not sure why I missed a certain shot in competition. That puts me on tilt quicker than anything. I can handle it if I know I dogged it but not being sure really messes up my mind.
When looking at the cue ball as I stroke, I get an instant read as soon as the ball leaves the cue tip. I see the spin or skid or lack there of. I feel like I can tell WHY on my misses a lot better now.
Johnny Archer's description of his aiming process in the TAR interview was very valuable to me. It basicaly reinforced the aiming process I was taught and should not depend on which ball you are looking at when you pull the trigger.
The new or placebo effect has worn off now but I am still liking it. I have become more complacent in my practice and the shot making has dropped off. In competition when the heat is on I can still depend on it and am still surprising myself with my accuracy and cue ball control on hard shots.
You are not alone in the idea of self sharking when you don't know why you missed. I can refocus on the next shot if I know where I failed but not knowing gets a bit unnerving.
Alligator arm, eh? Never heard that one before. I like it!
Ken
i don't think you see what you did here.
But if'n we freeze, we can't get on the floor, and if we get on the floor we won't be freezin'.
PM'ed an apology Okie. I don't belong here..
I just noticed another interesting idea that is somewhat controversial. To keep it unbiased try this exercise first.
Slowly touch your nose with your index finger.
Wait for it
What did you find? I found that my brain prefers to use an arc when moving the hand. Next time I tried moving my index finger in a straight line to my nose. I noticed that my hand wavered along the line. I accomplished the task with accuracy but there was a noticeable difference between the two ways of touching my nose. The arc is (to me) much smoother and the preferred method. I can be equally accurate with either method but the arc simply feels better or more natural.
Perhaps the brain prefers this type of integral calculus for making the necessary adjustment during targeting. It can be forced to work a pump action but a pendulum or arc type swinging motion is "preferred" by my brain.
Well I guess you can see the controversy there. Apparently the pendulum swing is preferred by the brain. Oh my, what are all those snooker players going to say
Then too I have an old brain so maybe the pump is better for some
And finally, touching your nose has nothing to do with pool playing, yeah, right.
Break your wrist as in a pool stroke and it can go straight line pretty easily--I found that interesting--I broke my wrist unconsciously the second time when I tried to come straighter after reading the rest of your post.
We gain accuracy.
I'm looking right at the very point on the object ball that I want the cue ball to contact.
Typically, for each shot I mentally review the entire shot before I get down. Then as I get down into position, I'm doing so in such a manner that my stance and balance are 'there' and then I get my bridge and feathering 'there'. So that by the time I'm into the next act, final aiming, since I've got all my other stuff 'there' - then all I have to consciously think about during the hit is targetting.
At the time I actually physically execute the hit; that little point of perfect contact on the object ball is freakin' seered into my eyes and brain !
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Well said Mr. Magoo.
But how do you focus so well on such a fine point with those extremely thick coke bottle bottom glasses?:wink:
Seriously, I do very much what you do. My only diversion is breifly as I'm getting down on the shot I include my cue tip in on that focus & get it (& the cue) into proper postion, feathering as you say I guess & then the focus is right back on that OB point.
My eys may shift back & forth a couple or a few times, but the focus is on & hitting that OB point. Since this thread I have tried looking at the CB last on some normal shots & have found that, FOR ME, I am much less accurate, even if I make the ball the CB does not go as accurately where I wanted it to go.
I know some say that all we can make contact with is the CB so we should focus on precise contact with it. While it is a fact that the CB is what we make contact with, it is the contact between the CB & OB that is the moment of truth.
I trust my mind & body to do what must be done when I am defining the objective with my eyes & my given intention. Jack Nicklaus has said that when putting his eyes where looking all over the place to give his mind as much input of information regarding the putt at hand. Putting is all about finding the corrrect line with the appropriate speed. So one needs as much info as possible to determine that combination. I don't think any pro has ever missed the golf ball when puuting, but they have missed their intended line &/or speed or they made an incorrect determination from either insufficient or faulty input of info.
We've all miscued for various reasons but I don't think many if any of us has missed the CB completely. Pocket billiards is a bit unique in that we normally have at least 3 targets CB, OB, & pocket. Most other games have only 2 or maybe even just 1.
That contact point on the OB is like the starting point of the rainbow to the pot of gold. Find that point where you make the connection to the rainbow & it will take you to the pot of gold, the pocket. We can hit the CB perfectly, but if the aim is off just a 'smidgen' we can mis the shot.
So, FOR ME, the goal is to put the CB onto that point on the OB. Maybe I feel this way because I have played with english for so many years & am now playing with a focus on CB squirt/defelction as well. I have hardly ever been concerned with hitting the center of the cue ball. On those shots where I do intend to hit CCB, I believe that I pay a bit more attention to make sure that my set up is precise so as to aid in hitting center, but my focus is on the OB contact point when I make the stroke.
I know this is a long winded post that basically states a lot of the obvious but it is the reasoning as to why & I believe that was Ken's original question.
Regards &
But how do you focus so well on such a fine point with those extremely thick coke bottle bottom glasses?:wink:
Seriously, I do very much what you do. My only diversion is breifly as I'm getting down on the shot I include my cue tip in on that focus & get it (& the cue) into proper postion, feathering as you say I guess & then the focus is right back on that OB point.
My eys may shift back & forth a couple or a few times, but the focus is on & hitting that OB point. Since this thread I have tried looking at the CB last on some normal shots & have found that, FOR ME, I am much less accurate, even if I make the ball the CB does not go as accurately where I wanted it to go.
I know some say that all we can make contact with is the CB so we should focus on precise contact with it. While it is a fact that the CB is what we make contact with, it is the contact between the CB & OB that is the moment of truth.
I trust my mind & body to do what must be done when I am defining the objective with my eyes & my given intention. Jack Nicklaus has said that when putting his eyes where looking all over the place to give his mind as much input of information regarding the putt at hand. Putting is all about finding the corrrect line with the appropriate speed. So one needs as much info as possible to determine that combination. I don't think any pro has ever missed the golf ball when puuting, but they have missed their intended line &/or speed or they made an incorrect determination from either insufficient or faulty input of info.
We've all miscued for various reasons but I don't think many if any of us has missed the CB completely. Pocket billiards is a bit unique in that we normally have at least 3 targets CB, OB, & pocket. Most other games have only 2 or maybe even just 1.
That contact point on the OB is like the starting point of the rainbow to the pot of gold. Find that point where you make the connection to the rainbow & it will take you to the pot of gold, the pocket. We can hit the CB perfectly, but if the aim is off just a 'smidgen' we can mis the shot.
So, FOR ME, the goal is to put the CB onto that point on the OB. Maybe I feel this way because I have played with english for so many years & am now playing with a focus on CB squirt/defelction as well. I have hardly ever been concerned with hitting the center of the cue ball. On those shots where I do intend to hit CCB, I believe that I pay a bit more attention to make sure that my set up is precise so as to aid in hitting center, but my focus is on the OB contact point when I make the stroke.
I know this is a long winded post that basically states a lot of the obvious but it is the reasoning as to why & I believe that was Ken's original question.
Regards &
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Do you aim the cue stick or the cue ball at the object ball?
I'm trying to hit the object ball with the cue ball, so I aim the cue ball, and lining up my cue accordingly. When I shoot, I'm looking at what I'm aiming at - the object ball.
It doesn't make sense to me to look at the cue ball as some suggest. Have I got this wrong?
I'm trying to hit the object ball with the cue ball, so I aim the cue ball, and lining up my cue accordingly. When I shoot, I'm looking at what I'm aiming at - the object ball.
It doesn't make sense to me to look at the cue ball as some suggest. Have I got this wrong?
Here is a twist for you. Several years ago it occurred to me that on length of table shots I was more likely to hit the target if I also selected a point mid way to the target on the cloth. I line up the cue ball, intermediate target, and the final target on the object ball.
The intermediate target is just a check to make sure every thing is on line. Seemed to me that three points are easier to line up than two points. I found that it is a good check point, not an aim point. If the selected intermediate point does not line up with the other two points then something is wrong with my aim.
You have to work with it for a while to get a feel for it but it does work quite well for me.
A year or so later I learned that golfers do the same sort of thing. I believe they call it an intermediate target or some such.
Anyway the quiet eye is used in the end with focus on the object ball.
The intermediate target is just a check to make sure every thing is on line. Seemed to me that three points are easier to line up than two points. I found that it is a good check point, not an aim point. If the selected intermediate point does not line up with the other two points then something is wrong with my aim.
You have to work with it for a while to get a feel for it but it does work quite well for me.
A year or so later I learned that golfers do the same sort of thing. I believe they call it an intermediate target or some such.
Anyway the quiet eye is used in the end with focus on the object ball.
Paul,
I think you've got it. It's about making the CB come in contact with that point on the OB. That's the target. Where do you aim the stick to get that accomplished? It's kind of like long range rifle shooting that snipers do. The bull's eye is the target but due to gravity & wind they 'aim' a bit high & to the side from which the wind is coming. (squirt/deflection & swerve)
Regards to You &
I think we have determined that their isn't truly a wrong. This is a preference on how to solve the problem of hitting a pool shot.
In golf, we defined three areas in order to better define our teaching. There are laws, principles, and preferences. These definitions aren't the ones I remember being taught exactly but they are close.
PGA Swing Model is designed to accommodate a variety of teaching approaches and methods. It has 3 conceptual levels.
3 Conceptual levels Laws, Principles, Preferences
law is a phenomenon of nature that has been proven to invariable occur whenever certain conditions exist or are met. In the model, the five laws determine the flight of the ball in predictable ways.
principle is a first cause, or force of a high order, that directly relates to a law. In the model, the 14 principles are the key swing positions and movements that influence the laws.
preference is a choice of a particular approach, method, style, device, etc., over other options. In this model, the preferences must relate to a principle.
Copied from http://quizlet.com/5105715/pga-swing-model-laws-principles-preferences-flash-cards/
This is my opinion and I am not a professional pool instructor.
Ken
p.s. I ain't played for 46 years yet either...I am not anywhere near as old as Rick!
I only wear glasses when I'm shooting pool.
I really should wear them all the time - that would keep me out of all that trouble I seem to always almost get into.
Yes.
I included that in my term 'bridging'.
Absolutely.
I'm gonna be sure to check my target point (usually inside the pocket) against the OB point during my aiming. If they don't agree then I need to get them to agree, and if that doesn't happen smoothly, I need to stand up.
The only time I look at the QB during shooting is if I am so jacked up that I cannot see the OB and maintain a balanced and comfortable stance.
And I only just started exporing that technique.
Imho there is no reason to look at the QB during 99.9% of shots.
Once a room owner told me to look at the QB when I shot. To this day, I believe he was intentionally fuking with my head. I've never gone back to his room since.
Oh yeah ! I hear ya'!
I should add that I line up and look like most everyone has described and look at the OB last. This is an exploratory mission.
I will use Rick's putting analogy. While I would absorb my surroundings putting when it comes time to putt almost every golfer looks at the ball while stroking. This is the equivalent of looking at the cue ball in pool. As I would putt the only picture of my target was in my mind's eye. During my alignment process I would setup where it felt right looking up and down a line I wanted to putt on then it was all about focusing on the ball without moving.
That same process can be used successfully playing pool. We have heard there are some pros who use it as well.
But for now I am staying with OB last with more time spent on the CB during my setup routine.
Ken
I will use Rick's putting analogy. While I would absorb my surroundings putting when it comes time to putt almost every golfer looks at the ball while stroking. This is the equivalent of looking at the cue ball in pool. As I would putt the only picture of my target was in my mind's eye. During my alignment process I would setup where it felt right looking up and down a line I wanted to putt on then it was all about focusing on the ball without moving.
That same process can be used successfully playing pool. We have heard there are some pros who use it as well.
But for now I am staying with OB last with more time spent on the CB during my setup routine.
Ken
Hi Ken,
I don't relate putting in golf to pool exactly for a couple of reasons.
Let's say you have a straight in putt from 6 or 7 feet. Your only concern would be to deliver the putter squarely to the ball to roll it with the correct speed straight into the cup which is considerably wider than the hole. That would be like shooting the cue ball straight into the pocket.
Now let's say you have another golf ball 2 feet in front the golf ball you are going to hit but it is a bit off of the line to the cup & you have to hit that ball with the other ball to make it go into the cup. Now you must be much more precise & hit a point patch on that ball. Where are you going to look now? That is why I said pocket billiards is a bit unique in that it has 3 targets instead of the 2 or 1 of most all other games. I could even conceive in my hypothetical that one might still look at the initial golf ball because of the 90* relation that our eyes are to the intended line of the strike.
The 3 targets are the reason that I think it makes more sense to 'target' the one in the middle as the most important. As Mr. Magoo stated, I do sometimes look at the CB when jacked up or in some strange set up & I do focus a bit more in the set up when I want a center hit. But in my experiments it does not work better, FOR ME in the 99% of the normal shots.
It seems to be working better for Mr. Cantrall. So it certainly is whatever works best for each individual & their particular situation.
I wish you every success in making your 'final' determination.
Best Regards to You &
LOL
I was following your lead using putting. And obviously they are different.
Splitting hairs bro!
It is all about the journey!!
Ken
LOL
I was following your lead using putting. And obviously they are different.
Splitting hairs bro!
It is all about the journey!!
Ken
Ken,
I was not meaning to argue or split hairs, although I wish I could aim that well.:wink:
I was just meaning to make it a little more clear as to a difference or two as to why most of us look at the golf ball when we putt vs the secondary target as I believe most of us do in pool, athough some do look at the cup.
My apologies if I came across as meaning to split hairs. I was merely trying to be a bit more clear as to the differences & why we might look where we look.
Best Regards to You & may the road along our journey be smooth with almost no bumps & may those few bumps be little gentle ones.
One thing is for sure. It is near impossible to sense a person's emotion behind a text based post. I was just jacking with you. I am a fairly large smartass in person
UPDATE:
So I see improvement when looking at cb more. I see more improvement when I look at cue ball more and object ball last.
TBH though, I suck so bad during practice it is hard to tell anything sometimes. I can't seem to make a ball unless my heart is racing.
The journey is the teacher! What ya think CJ?
Ken
One thing is for sure. It is near impossible to sense a person's emotion behind a text based post. I was just jacking with you. I am a fairly large smartass in person
UPDATE:
So I see improvement when looking at cb more. I see more improvement when I look at cue ball more and object ball last.
TBH though, I suck so bad during practice it is hard to tell anything sometimes. I can't seem to make a ball unless my heart is racing.
The journey is the teacher! What ya think CJ?
Ken
Ken,
:thumbup:
Best to Ya,