Why pool doesn't get it going

[ajrack]

Problem #1...I believe that one of the the main problems with pool being a National / International event ... NO SEATING !!! Go to a golf tournament - thousands of people walking around and very close to the players hitting the balls under many different circumstances. All other sports are the same.
If you go play pool in a bar > no seating for the extra players let alone spectators. Almost any pool room or bar tournament, with just a few exceptions > not much seating. My buddy used to go to watch me play in tourneys often, he just quit coming because it was almost ,impossible for him to get a seat to watch me play...if he found one, he would save it for me to wait for my next match.
No spectators means no extra income for the venue to put up the $$$ for their events. So the answer at the moment is >>> have it at a CASINO!!! ? I would really like to see lower level tourneys have qualifiers to a major event ..no one seems to get a handle on this process.

Problem #2... Making it a TV event >>> the current rules (boring for TV). I'll get to that at a later time...It takes way to long to get into at the moment.
Problem #3...The people in charge, many well intended folks who really would like to get it going but are using the "normal / standard / familiar " ways to run their events.

I have been playing and running tourneys for over 30 years (I usually get a decent crowd at my events because the players like to play in some of my "different" tourneys ) so I wish to mention "My complaints" and maybe some solutions.

This might be a little too serious around "Turkey Day" but hope you all eat plenty and enjoy the company of friends and relatives!

 

[Russ Chewning]

Problem #1...I believe that one of the the main problems with pool being a National / International event ... NO SEATING !!! Go to a golf tournament - thousands of people walking around and very close to the players hitting the balls under many different circumstances. All other sports are the same.
If you go play pool in a bar > no seating for the extra players let alone spectators. Almost any pool room or bar tournament, with just a few exceptions > not much seating. My buddy used to go to watch me play in tourneys often, he just quit coming because it was almost ,impossible for him to get a seat to watch me play...if he found one, he would save it for me to wait for my next match.
No spectators means no extra income for the venue to put up the $$$ for their events. So the answer at the moment is >>> have it at a CASINO!!! ? I would really like to see lower level tourneys have qualifiers to a major event ..no one seems to get a handle on this process.

Problem #2... Making it a TV event >>> the current rules (boring for TV). I'll get to that at a later time...It takes way to long to get into at the moment.
Problem #3...The people in charge, many well intended folks who really would like to get it going but are using the "normal / standard / familiar " ways to run their events.

I have been playing and running tourneys for over 30 years (I usually get a decent crowd at my events because the players like to play in some of my "different" tourneys ) so I wish to mention "My complaints" and maybe some solutions.

This might be a little too serious around "Turkey Day" but hope you all eat plenty and enjoy the company of friends and relatives!

Actually, the MAIN problem is that the pool industry continues to stick it's head in the sand and deny the attraction of gambling in the game.

Someone needs to write another pool movie that can compare with TCOM and The Hustler, get some major star power behind it, and pool will have another boom.

There is no way around it. We need something better than some slick young hollywood stud in a silk shirt pretending to play pool in a movie, a la "Poolhall Junkies". Ricky Schroeder? I mean WTF, over?

Both TCOM and The Hustler were fairly gritty movies that showed that there really are no morals in the game, just money.

Just the way I see it.

Russ

P.S. I think there are already a few young poolplayers that have that hard gambling edge that could pull off a movie like this, and have the looks as well. Cory, Shane, etc... I really think something nice could be put together by someone willing to contribute the camera work for a cut of the profits of the film.

I.e., 10% to Cory, 5% to cameraman, 20% to rest of cast. We have PLENTY of characters in pool that already know how to act like loudmouth gambling degenerates, because well.. They ARE loudmouth gambling degenereates..

If someone can come up with a good script, and if $50,000-$60,000 would be sufficient for a professional cameraman and editing costs, I'll fund it myself. PM me.

 

[BigDaddyInc.]

Right on russ preach the word brother! Im so sick of watching everyone trying to portray pool as a sport that is played in the basement of a church!

 

[RiverCity]

Both TCOM and The Hustler were fairly gritty movies that showed that there really are no morals in the game, just money.

No morals...... nice observation.
The main reason I think alot of folks who already like pool, and want to keep the gambling-husting image going...... is because that is what drew them to the game in the first place. They had a preconceived notion about what the game is about, and they want to be a part of it. They want to feel they are a part of the gritty, seedy underworld..... they feel cool when they feel "dirty".
But the problem is the preconceived notion. The image that pool is nothing BUT gambling, hustling and sleaze. You can not capture the publics attention in a good or positive way , much less keep it with that image. Cant be done. This has been proven time and time again. The big booms in the game after movies like The Hustler and TCOM prove that by themselves.
People see those movies and think, wow thats cool. I would love to live on the edge like that. So they go buy a cue and play for a while, then it drops off. Its the same thing with motorcycles. How many Harley Davidsons have been bought in the last 20 years by yuppies etc that are sitting in a garage with a tarp over them? Because people want to be an "outlaw", but when it comes down to it, they love the image..... but the life itself is not too appealing.
You dont see degenerate gamblers being promoted on the Kentucky Derby broadcast do you? ........... Here is Joe Schmoe, he has stolen his childrens christmas money to bet on the number 5 horse today.......
It doesnt work, no matter how much you want it to.
Chuck

 

[Russ Chewning]

No morals...... nice observation.

Well, how long did you hang around your first pool hall before one of the "regulars" tried to get you into a match with someone you had no chance against, all the while they are telling you "It's a lock for you."?

The economic flows of a pool hall come as close as you can get to being a wild animal having to be constantly aware of your surroundings, lest you get eaten.

You dont see degenerate gamblers being promoted on the Kentucky Derby broadcast do you? ........... Here is Joe Schmoe, he has stolen his childrens christmas money to bet on the number 5 horse today.......
It doesnt work, no matter how much you want it to.
Chuck

Yeah.. But it works better than doing nothing and watch the game slide further and further and further.

Even a short lived boom in the industry and game is better than no boom at all.

Russ

 

[Cameron Smith]

.

Problem #2... Making it a TV event >>> the current rules (boring for TV). I'll get to that at a later time...It takes way to long to get into at the moment.

I believe Poker has shown us that ANYTHING can be exciting as long as it is marketed properly.

Marketing is the biggest issue for pool. It almost seems as though there is no effort being made to promote the game and create new fans. I know that around here, whenever there is a pro tournament coming up, only the most rabid of fans know about it.

Enough with the gimmicky pool shows like Poker pool and skins pool, lets just focus on marketing the game itself. In order to do that you need to market the players.

 

[cueandcushion]

Just my opinions...nothing more nothing less

1.) Poker has never been exciting...never ever ever...lol. Never. Ever..
2.) If pool was drawing a PAYING crowd...there would be plenty of seating
3.) No one (general public) will ever consider pool a sport if gambling is involved. Until then it is just a game. Kinda like checkers.
4.) Morals and ethics are endangered animals in the pool halls. What sponsor is going after THAT market.
5.) Role models are few and far between. Even fans of the game make fun of the KING...Mike Sigel and his behavior on the IPT King of the Hill matches. The number of role models should outnumber the number or hustlers, scammers or "characters". What other "sport" is set up that way? What if baseball players would make side bets to throw a game? If a basketball pro hustled a minor on a local high school team for $20 you think there would be consequences? That happens all the time in the pool world.
6.) The seperation between the "bangers" and the good players. Good players refuse to acknowledge that bangers financially support pool rooms. Good players will hustle the bangers and belittle them. They will talk down to them and refuse to help them or play them without "betting something" This is not good for the game. If the people supporting the game financially have no respect or admiration for the people who are great players; they will no longer pay to support them. They are also less likely to keep coming in to a pool hall if the "regulars" make them feel uncomfortable. Make sense?

These are general observations and do not apply to all good players by any means. {Pros like Nick Varner and Jeanette Lee continue to have a great influence on the game, but they are not enough}. But they happen enough to have a negative effect on our game/sport. As long as they continue to happen without consequence this game will be destined to be labeled as dirty and corrupt and low income for quite some time. We need to clean up our own act long before corporate America will financially support it and before we are admired and respected in middle/upper class homes.

Like I said..just my opinions....don't go berserk over them everyone.

 

[BazookaJoe]

Actually, the MAIN problem is that the pool industry continues to stick it's head in the sand and deny the attraction of gambling in the game.

I agreee completely with this statement

 

[inthezone]

Pick ten players, give them each $10K, and lock them all in a room until one has all the cash. Let them match up any way they want to and have 20 cameras and 50 microphones going round the clock.

 

[cueandcushion]

Pick ten players, give them each $10K, and lock them all in a room until one has all the cash. Let them match up any way they want to and have 20 cameras and 50 microphones going round the clock.

Add an open bar to that and I would LOVE to watch that show! Great idea!

 

[Hal]

Pick ten players, give them each $10K, and lock them all in a room until one has all the cash. Let them match up any way they want to and have 20 cameras and 50 microphones going round the clock.

Add an open bar to that and I would LOVE to watch that show! Great idea!

Let's make it a cage match! Even if you lose the cash, you can kick his ass and take it back!

 

[VIProfessor]

Both TCOM and The Hustler were fairly gritty movies that showed that there really are no morals in the game, just money.

I believe that this statement shows that the poster missed the point of both movies, and that he misunderstands the role of sports in American culture. Let's address the movies first.

The young Eddie Felson didn't lose to Fats because he lacked the skill on the table or because he wasn't smart enough at matching up. He lost initiatially because he lacked CHARACTER. Much of the movie is about how, through hardship and tragedy, he develops the strength and the character to beat his nemesis. Despite all the hustling and the focus on accumulating money instead of yardage, the movie is about a young man's struggle to become the best.

Similarly, in the Color of Money, the older Eddie Felson, through taking Vince on the road, rediscovers his love for the game. One of the most poignant scenes of the movie comes when Eddie is watching Vince battle it out with Grady Seasons and become entranced with the movement of the balls and the ebb and flow of the game. Do you remember Carmen asking him something like, "What, are you meditating or something?" At the end of the movie, if you remember, Eddie repudiates all the scamming that he has taught Vince and instead chooses to pursue the purity of the game. Yeah, he's going to continue gambling, but his purpose is no longer to find the ultimate sucker. His purpose, once again, is to be the best.

Thus, in both movies, underneath the hustles and the scams, we find powerful statements about the beauty and purity of the game and about the struggle to achieve excellence. Without these underlying themes, I sincerely doubt that either of the movies would have enjoyed the success that they did.

This leads to the role of sports in American culture. At the end of the day, the tremendous appeal of sports lies in the concept of "a level playing field". The average American believes, or strongly wants to believe, that sports is one of the few areas left in American society where anyone, whether they were born in Beverly Hills or Bed-Stuy, can achieve greatness if they have the talent and are willing to put in the necessary work. You can't talk your way into sports greatness, and your rich daddy can't hook you up with an NBA Championship--you have to earn it. Pool cannot grow as a sport unless it can connect with those themes. I agree that it is foolish and futile to attempt to totally disconnect gambling from the sport. After all, it is clear that we are a nation of gamblers. However, if you attempt to divorce the sport from any notion of morality or fair play, you will certainly relegate the pool to an even more precarious position than it is currently in. If the live and TV audience knows that it must be concerned about whether player A will dump to player B, how would that help the sport? How would anybody gamble on the match, except if they felt they knew where the smart money was going? Who would really be interested in watching if they knew that the result had already been determined and that at least one of the players would certainly not be playing his/her best pool?

What we need to do is market the sport and show the public how beautiful and difficult it really is. Does the public know that a 20-year old professional pool player has probably logged more hours on the table in his lifetime than his counterpart in probably every other sport? What aspiring golf pro or basketball player spends between 6-12 hours a day, every day, playing and practicing the game? To the extent that gambling should be marketed as part of the game, it should be to add human interest elements. The public should know about the tough path that one travels from good local player, to road agent, to touring professional. They should know about the blissful highs of a good score, and they should also know about the times when losses or lack of action relegate a player to the franks and canned beans diet. They should not, under any circumstances, be encouraged to think that our great sport is characterized only by degenerates and lowlifes. The sport is better than that, and so are we!

 

[StrokeofLuck]

I believe Poker has shown us that ANYTHING can be exciting as long as it is marketed properly.

Sorry but I don't think poker's popularity has anything to do with marketing. I believe it started out on the Travel Channel with no hoopla at all, but the advent of the in-table cameras where you can see the player's hole cards is what makes the game watchable. Without that, it's not a televised sport.

Pool needs desperately to find something to put it over the edge, amateurish commentary, whiny-butt players, and guys/gals finishing in the top ten and bringing home a couple of hundred dollars doesn't exactly make for riveting viewing. The ladies I think drew some interest anyway by presenting themselves well, showing some class and sportsmanship.

 

[kevin s]

I believe Poker has shown us that ANYTHING can be exciting as long as it is marketed properly.

Marketing is the biggest issue for pool. It almost seems as though there is no effort being made to promote the game and create new fans. I know that around here, whenever there is a pro tournament coming up, only the most rabid of fans know about it.

Enough with the gimmicky pool shows like Poker pool and skins pool, lets just focus on marketing the game itself. In order to do that you need to market the players.

1) Any amateur poker player has a chance to win !!!! Ex. Chris Moneymaker,Greg Raymor, Etc.......
2) Pool is a skill !!!! Years and years to master!!!!
3) Pool is a sport of survival!!! After the word is out nobody will gamble with you tournaments don't pay enough to live on and you CAN NOT work 40 or 50 hours a week and play pool at a world class level!!!
4) Everyone seems to forget that the fourties and fifties era of pool (Eddie Taylor,Willie Mosconi,Minn. Fats ,etc..) were filled with mob people, bookies and all the so called immorals that the sport was gloryfied for????
5) Until a major sponser (multi billion dollar company) gets on board with some kind of REAL tour the young people of our sport has no chance!!! Only to survive the best they can to play!!!!!!!!

 

[Tom In Cincy]

Pool just can't compete!

There are just too many competitors for the advertising dollars needed to make pool a well paying professional sport.

How can pool stand up against the industry giants of sports?
MLB, NFL, NBA, PGA, Tennis, NHL and NASCAR have the majority of the available advertising money in the USA.

It's not that difficult to say how great pool is, but to compare pool to the major sports is pure fantasy. There are 10s of millions of sports fans associated to 10s of Billions advertising dollars spent for the MAJOR sports

Pool just can't compete. Pool doesn't have anything to sell that is worth millions of dollars worth of advertising. If it did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Sure, pool is a great game, enjoyed by 300,000 amatures weekly in all the leagues combined. But that is the combined weekend gate of the NFL teams on any given weekend. And, that's not counting the TV audiance. The NBA gate enjoys more than 300,000 a week. I would suspect the gate at MLB and NHL would be similar. And this is just the GATE.

By the way, those 300,000 amatures are PAYING to play each week.

Is pool a professional sport? for a very few players the answer is YES. For the other 99% of the pool world, the answer is NO.

 

[Johnnyt]

Actually, the MAIN problem is that the pool industry continues to stick it's head in the sand and deny the attraction of gambling in the game.

Someone needs to write another pool movie that can compare with TCOM and The Hustler, get some major star power behind it, and pool will have another boom.

There is no way around it. We need something better than some slick young hollywood stud in a silk shirt pretending to play pool in a movie, a la "Poolhall Junkies". Ricky Schroeder? I mean WTF, over?

Both TCOM and The Hustler were fairly gritty movies that showed that there really are no morals in the game, just money.

Just the way I see it.

Russ

P.S. I think there are already a few young poolplayers that have that hard gambling edge that could pull off a movie like this, and have the looks as well. Cory, Shane, etc... I really think something nice could be put together by someone willing to contribute the camera work for a cut of the profits of the film.

I.e., 10% to Cory, 5% to cameraman, 20% to rest of cast. We have PLENTY of characters in pool that already know how to act like loudmouth gambling degenerates, because well.. They ARE loudmouth gambling degenereates..

If someone can come up with a good script, and if $50,000-$60,000 would be sufficient for a professional cameraman and editing costs, I'll fund it myself. PM me.

I agree that you would need to have a star play the leading role in any movie that would impact the game like The Color of Money or The Hustler. Women in leading roles is big now also. Johnnyt

 

[3kushn]

1.) Poker has never been exciting...never ever ever...lol. Never. Ever..
2.) If pool was drawing a PAYING crowd...there would be plenty of seating
3.) No one (general public) will ever consider pool a sport if gambling is involved. Until then it is just a game. Kinda like checkers.
4.) Morals and ethics are endangered animals in the pool halls. What sponsor is going after THAT market.
5.) Role models are few and far between. Even fans of the game make fun of the KING...Mike Sigel and his behavior on the IPT King of the Hill matches. The number of role models should outnumber the number or hustlers, scammers or "characters". What other "sport" is set up that way? What if baseball players would make side bets to throw a game? If a basketball pro hustled a minor on a local high school team for $20 you think there would be consequences? That happens all the time in the pool world.
6.) The seperation between the "bangers" and the good players. Good players refuse to acknowledge that bangers financially support pool rooms. Good players will hustle the bangers and belittle them. They will talk down to them and refuse to help them or play them without "betting something" This is not good for the game. If the people supporting the game financially have no respect or admiration for the people who are great players; they will no longer pay to support them. They are also less likely to keep coming in to a pool hall if the "regulars" make them feel uncomfortable. Make sense?

These are general observations and do not apply to all good players by any means. {Pros like Nick Varner and Jeanette Lee continue to have a great influence on the game, but they are not enough}. But they happen enough to have a negative effect on our game/sport. As long as they continue to happen without consequence this game will be destined to be labeled as dirty and corrupt and low income for quite some time. We need to clean up our own act long before corporate America will financially support it and before we are admired and respected in middle/upper class homes.

Like I said..just my opinions....don't go berserk over them everyone.

From my perspective CueandCushion is exactly right. Before I even knew what end of the cue to hit the ball with hustlers were tryign to fleece my pocket. Thank God this 82 year old man took an interest in teaching me and it happened to be 3 Cushion. I immediately noticed nobody trying to match up. I didn't know anymore than the week before. The guttless punks really didn't want to gamble. They were only interested in theft. Even the pros in town took a long time before they would teach me anything.

This isn't meant to be a cut on pool players but there is, generally speaking, a different culture among the carom players. I can name a couple of exceptions but really not many. I just finished up a Regional Tournament were when the first night was over several uf us were helping each other with shots, theory .... Even though we were facing each other the next morning. I just don't see that much in pool unless there's a freindship or little threat between the two.

VIProfessor is also on the Mark. Those of us who respect the game and ourselves deserve better than to be lumped in with the thieves and scammers. Nothing wrong with gambling. I just have a problem with theft.

One last thing. The videos and broadcasts of matches teach me nothing but shot selection. Although an important part of any of the games I'm also looking for how the CB & OB is hit. Rarely do you ever see it. The camera always closes in on a side shot of the CB. Very boring.

 

[3kushn]

Sorry must have sent twice.

 

[Cornerman]

Sorry but I don't think poker's popularity has anything to do with marketing. I believe it started out on the Travel Channel with no hoopla at all, but the advent of the in-table cameras where you can see the player's hole cards is what makes the game watchable. Without that, it's not a televised sport..

I wanted to duck in this just to address this one post. The in-table cameras have been in use at televised poker tables since at least the 80's. It's definitely not new.

Three things catapulted the poker viewership: the steady schedule of the Travel Channel giving a sense of build up when they started showing the WPT, excellent commentary so that the masses have a clue of what's going on, and the back-to-back amateur wins in the World Series of Poker Main Event (Robert Varkonyi '02 and Chris Moneymaker '03). A lot of people forget about Varkonyi, but it was he that first brought the "anyone can win if they get lucky enough" message to the masses. Moneymaker's play and his name solidified it the following year.

So marketing and sheer luck is what's needed. Just like a lot of things. Marketing, IMO, is the biggest beast. I think that several of the poker events had excellent commentary previously (Dick Van Patten and Gabe Kaplan to name two celebrity poker playing commentators), but that in of itself wasn't enough to bring poker to the top of the viewership ladder. It needed the other things.

Fred

 

[Cameron Smith]

I wanted to duck in this just to address this one post. The in-table cameras have been in use at televised poker tables since at least the 80's. It's definitely not new.

Three things catapulted the poker viewership: the steady schedule of the Travel Channel giving a sense of build up when they started showing the WPT, excellent commentary so that the masses have a clue of what's going on, and the back-to-back amateur wins in the World Series of Poker Main Event (Robert Varkonyi '02 and Chris Moneymaker '03). A lot of people forget about Varkonyi, but it was he that first brought the "anyone can win if they get lucky enough" message to the masses. Moneymaker's play and his name solidified it the following year.

So marketing and sheer luck is what's needed. Just like a lot of things. Marketing, IMO, is the biggest beast. I think that several of the poker events had excellent commentary previously (Dick Van Patten and Gabe Kaplan to name two celebrity poker playing commentators), but that in of itself wasn't enough to bring poker to the top of the viewership ladder. It needed the other things.

Fred

What he said .