Why Pool is not a major sport.

Pool is in the back seat because of the people most in control of marketing . Especially is the US , the women make more money than the men . That indicates the real money has no interest in the men . Why , they aren't marketable . Europe and Asia have men's pool booming . Players should boycott ESPN and Fox and other networks for their prejudice !!! Here in the US it seems more and more pool room owners dislike players and only want alchoholics as patrons . !&ck them... People make the sport but a few bad apples can spoil the barrel ...:eek::mad:
 
Well, what do you think?

Jim

I think Jim that not only do I share your opinion, I posted about it on this forum several years ago. Not surprisingly, I got the same opposing responses that you've received. I guess I'd be pretty pissed off if everybody suddenly agreed with the idea today.

To me, your (and my) opinion make the most reasonable and logical sense. But, that's easy for me to say since we agree.

Fred <~~~ surely wasn't the first to say it either
 
Well, what do you think? Jim

Well Jim, I think that pool is the only game/sport that eats its young.

I know that isn't original, but when I first heard it, I laughed and then I began to see it again and again. I've seen too many examples of this.

This might be the only constant in Pool.

The rules are getting to be more standard, but still have a long way to go.
From Leagues, pool halls, to regional tournaments... all different rules.

What size is a regulation tournament table? 7 8 or 9 footers?
by what organization?

What are the best sets of balls?

What is the best format? DE, SE, RR there has got to be a better way to test skills.

If the pool industry has an estimated gross sales of over a Billion dollars a year, wouldn't you think they would put up at least $2 Million to support a tour?

Pool cannot compete with the PRO sports already eating up all the PRIME TV time. The NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL, Nascar, PGA and Pro Soccer have all the ad money and continue to fight for more each year. Pool is just a very little fish compared to the WHALES in the other PRO sports.

I think the biggest reason I want Pool to succeed in the public's eye (tv and huge payouts) is because I am tired of being labeled a pool player, a hustler and one of those types of people that go to a pool hall to eat their young.

How can we expect to have the BAR raised by the Pros? they can't even agree to have a standard tournament agreement?
 
Enzo basically nutted this one.

Pool is a great wonderful game, played by ugly people. Corporate America does not throw money at, or put ugly people on prime time and their name behind them.

KT, did put millions up, and proved, the game cannot be sold to corporate american or to big time TV, nobody wants any part of seeing Earl do a John McEnroe on TV. Kt proved, pro pool is dead, going no where, but back rooms of pool rooms like it was 50 years ago. Its real sad, but that is the truth. :(

I think KT did absolutely nothing good for the game. He just landed another black eye. It is not fair to compare him to anyone or anything!
 
For the past 50 years that I know of, most tournaments have been a clone of each other. By this I mean the promoters today still pick games and run the tournament that allow the folling to happen..........

Player 1 breaks and runs out the set and player 2 never gets to shoot.

Player 1 misses and leaves player 2 hooked and when player 2 kicks and misses player 1 takes ball in hand and runs out....(player 1 lucky)

Player 1 gets out of line for their next shot and rather than take the risk they play safe.....(player 2 unlucky)

Player 1 shoots at one ball, misses that ball but lucks in another one and runs out.......(player 2 unlucky)

Do you see player 2 starting to get a little testy?

In golf when Tiger shoots a 63 from the back tees and I shoot an 85 :grin-square: from the mens tees, I can imagine how good he is and have a way to compare. When you see 2 players on a TV tournament playing under the current format and the set score ends up 9 to 3, how does this give the recreational player/amatuer a way compare?

Is pressure knowing you are playing Johnny Archer to win or knowing you have to shoot a 66 on the last day of the tournament to win....like Tiger

Most all tournaments are bracket elimination which does not create much drama for the finals......I will explain.

No matter what shade of lipstick you put on a pig, it's still a pig!

How about this concept...........you play a game where every player gets exactly the same chance to win as every other player in the tournament. Whoever you are playing with at your table has no effect on your chances to win, it's just you and the equipment. You get 10 chances to post your best score just like every other player in the tournament. There is no defense so you are required to shoot and pocket a ball even if you do get out of position (shame on you professional players). Talk about pressure, just imagine its the last day of the tournament and when you bend over the table to break your first rack you must shoot a 146 to win. You are playing the entire field during the tournament, not a single player elimination. On the last day and the last round there are 20 players playing at the same time shooting their best score and the score board changes with the completion of every rack until the winner is determined. This is the drama I was refering to 20 players playing at the same time, doing their best to shoot their highest score and the score board constantly changing until the last ball is pocketed.

This is a brief explination of what 6 Pocket is all about, I have a detailed business plan for 5 seperate business using this concept that several investors (business men, not in the industry) have bought into.

Now if i could only get the billiards community to buy into this concept.

Don't let the comments made on this forum discourage you. Yes, there are a number or scored games that have never gone anywhere (equal-offense, bowliards, stroke-play, etc.) I really do get your concept. Maybe your plan has an added componant that the other scored games do not have that will put it over the top.

My advice for what it is worth: You need to test it in your area for at least three years. Find out for yourself if the players will actually do it. Does the concept grow. Does it have life beyond novilty status. When it has a track record for growth and shows promise, then and only then, take the next step. If you can show a track record pointing toward long term success, you will have everyone's attention.
 
If the pool industry has an estimated gross sales of over a Billion dollars a year, wouldn't you think they would put up at least $2 Million to support a tour?


Tom, I have to chime in on this as your statement is not correct. The Billiard industry in the US easily puts in $2 Million per year and that number is probably closer $10 Million PY just in tournaments and $15-20 Million if you count all the pool leagues.

The PROBLEM is that it is not organized. Right now it is a free-for-all with nobody having any advantage. Because of this, YES there are more tours and tournaments but each have less money now because the sponsorship it is so spread out. If we ever get down to say 6-8 major regional tours the prize monies would go up because they would absorb most the smaller events sponsorships and this would be conducive to creating a real pro tour . OR if they were all (all that are out there right now) organized under 1 body then we would also have something pretty good.

The BAD NEWS is,,,,,, neither of those 2 scenarios are going to happen anytime soon.
 
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Do you honestly think that golf is just about the player against the course?

What's really different to what you describe and Equal Offense which has been around for 20 years at least?

Pressure is not only knowing you have to beat Johnny Archer but you have to do it on 4.25" pockets in front of the crowd, on AccuStats with Mike Sigel and Buddy Hall critiquing your game as you are playing.

I feel that pocket billiards does not need to have another game competing for attention. However as a person who is in this business I realize that any attention is better than no attention so I welcome any game that's played on a pool table, using pool balls and cues, and requires all the skills that a champion pool player must develop to be a champion.

Anything that gets more people playing is great for the activity and the industry.

I just don't feel that it's the current competitive formats that are broken. Only how we present them.

To use your pig analogy, a chocolate cake with green icing is still a chocolate cake.

Do you understand how innovation and success work? Because someone puts a lot of hard work, invests a lot of money, and is sincere, does not mean he deserves or is entitled to success. An overwhelming percentage of ideas fail. All we need is one winner and we can all jump on board and ride it into the sunset. We need hundreds entrepreneurs looking for the holy grail. I am interested in hearing about everything, even Pool Poker & Pain. I do not knock KT.
 
What;s everyone's defintion of a 'MAJOR SPORT' ?

Obvious ones, all forms of Football, basketball, baseball

Do u consider tennis a major sport ?

MMA ?

Boxing ?

cycling ?

swimming ?

track and field ?

surfing ?
 
Do you understand how innovation and success work? Because someone puts a lot of hard work, invests a lot of money, and is sincere, does not mean he deserves or is entitled to success. An overwhelming percentage of ideas fail. All we need is one winner and we can all jump on board and ride it into the sunset. We need hundreds entrepreneurs looking for the holy grail. I am interested in hearing about everything, even Pool Poker & Pain. I do not knock KT.

I have no idea how it works. This is all I have to show for my effort after 20+ years in the business www.jbcases.com

I am glad you are interested in hearing about everything. So what? So is everyone else. Everybody listens to all the "ideas" and everyone nods when someone comes up with the next big thing.

I knock KT. He is an asshole. I bought into his spiel and told all the negative people on here to give the guy a chance.

He did put a lot into pool for a short time and in my opinion he did give us a glimpse of what could be. But he also got a lot of people pumped up and then just killed their dreams because he didn't put in the money and effort that he said he would.

At the end of the day he was just another wannabe promoter with not enough muscle to back up his plans.

You say we need hundreds of people trying to come up with one winner? If that's what you mean then I have a question for you? Ever heard of dilution?

I don't know. Why is it ok for pool to be screwed with by everyone but not say Tennis? I mean if people are looking to break into the big time then why not invent another form of tennis or baseball? Wait, there is one where they play some kind of basketball on trampolines. That's pretty funky to watch - ever seen it? They have teams and everything.

And sorry but I don't agree with you that people should sink their life savings and the money they raise from investors into new billiard stuff like new games and gadgets based on some fictional statistic like an estimate that 30 million people play pool each year.

I think that this is money that is wasted because the billiard industry is not truly big enough for anything other than a few companies to reach mid level size. All the others are tiny and operating on shoestring budgets.

People throw out numbers like the "industry" is worth a billion in revenue per year and so why can't "they" come up with 2 million for a pro tour. Well the fact is that 2 million could be found but it's worth nothing because the distribution of content is so small that the ROI is not worth it.

IMO
 
pool is not a sport , because it is a game. just the same as darts is a game. i think to be a sport it has to be more physical than mental. ie... football, baseball, soccer, BOXING. not that those sports arent mental but lets face it, a good boxer can rely on stamina and grit if his head isnt in a fight, but if your playing pool and something gets in your head aside the game, forget about it. pool is as much a sport as say, chess, which is really,,,,, well , not a sport at all. and back to the physical aspect of it, in sports, athletes have what is known as a PRIME. this is the time in their life that they will be at their peak PHYSICALLY. whereas pool players, i mean have you seen some of them. pool players are usually good until they are extremely old. basically as long as they keep playing, and are able to hold a stick and see the balls. i know a lot of people are going to say im not as good as i once was, well theywere probably never as good as they thought. so to call a pool player an athlete is the same to me as calling michael vick a responsible pet owner
 
What;s everyone's defintion of a 'MAJOR SPORT' ?

Obvious ones, all forms of Football, basketball, baseball

Do u consider tennis a major sport ?

MMA ?

Boxing ?

cycling ?

swimming ?

track and field ?

surfing ?

Any sport where the best make millions and are well known celebrities is a major sport. Any sport where networks pay for the right to broadcast contests is a major sport. Any sport where the best athletes are paid to show up and are not accessible to the general public is a major sport.

To me at least.
 
I think this has all been said, but let's summarize and make some comparisons.

ORGANIZATION(AND CHEATING)
Men's professional pool organization. This is in my opinion, the biggest issue. If the men and pool really wanted to be serious, they(we) would create an organization to market pool played at the highest levels. Frankly there are so many issues, I don't know where to start. Before I drop this, let me say that if ESPN is going to commit to a contract with pool which costs money to get it going, they need assurances that the next tour, organization, etc won't fold. They(We) also need to know that the next $10000 winner won, and didn't win by paying a saver or some other cheating method. Yes, the tournament cheating has to stop. The onsite back room gambling has to stop also. Meet next week and gamble! It has to be real. Look how Italian football delt with match fixing. We need the same.

MARKETING(AND IMAGE MANAGEMENT)
Let's start with marketing. We need some real think tank types to help us get the basic brand concept of a cool male pool player off the ground. These guys are cool. New players should be saying I want to be Efren, SVB, Johnny, etc. Frankly, I think this happens some, but these guys need more thought about how to market and control their images. They need controlled exposure, more product imaging, some appeal. I think the people are fine. I think the best way to market them is as the peoples game. Go to the people, tell stories, play challenge matches, etc. Basically, we need someone to tell us how to make Johnny Archer my idol. I think it can be done. The organization has to do it. if Efren drinks Red Bull before the big match, I should too, right? I mean hell. . .every week we ask what tip he or SVB uses on here.

Show us their clothes, cues, hats, suits, cases. What's in the case is great. We need a player to describe their new cue everytime they change cues in a short 10-15s slide show of their new cue when they change.

Dental work, tooth whitening, interviewing lessons. . .

FORMAT
So, how to get the best exposure. Well, it has been said that pool dies when a person tries to watch it. That is kind of true. I think it is like Alaskan fishing that way. . . oh wait, that is wildly successful on TV. Maybe professional pool is best covered with a multiple table, multiple view approach like Golf, Cycling, or Alaskan fishing. Yea, that makes sense.

First, improve the ball visualization. I have good eyes, but I hate not knowing where each ball is. Maybe a PIP with big numbers, other cloth colors, call outs on the next 3 balls like like lines on the field in football??

In another sense, we have to capitalize on the hustler gambling image. We need a King/Challenge match system. A 20 city, 400 game, 800 night match to determine the best of the best. Guys ought to play tournaments to show they are good enough to be shown in a PPV challenge. It ought to be the Tosititos Fiesta challenge match for $200,000!

The third format which I think needs some thought is the idea of bringing back the idea of the 10 player round robin champions game format. I do think 14.1 should be considered as the champion's game again. Maybe played on 5 x 10 tables. Something to make it one better than the challenge match winners.

The overall annual format ought to look like this. Monthly regional/national pool tournaments.(about 2 - 3 hours of video per tournament shown on TV; details of key matches on PPV/streams) Basically, the tournaments would pay low enough that it would be like a league for pros trying to get in the challenges, but close enough to hold a day job for most. Winners get picked up by larger sponsers for challenge match mini tours(i.e. 200 games of 9-ball, 5 cities, 4 days per city, 10 games a night) about 10 per year.(ESPN highlights daily and streams/PPV for details) Then, the end of the year should have some BCS style election of who has the highest speed for an invitational round robin for a champion's game. Something like 8-ball, 10-ball, 14.1, one pocket.(ESPN or network coverage for highlights + 1 - 2 hours per day)

EXHIBITIONS
These should exist, but players really need to commit to letting the organization control their exposure. Someone needs to be watching the exposure meter and make sure these guys don't get to main stream. i.e. we can't have the condition where people think making 9 easy shots wins one game and if you can win one, you can win them all.

MONEY
In the end, there needs to be money in this for the players and their sponsers. This is where we come in. We need to get down and watch a guy when he comes to town. I think this is where exposure control will help. Make it special and well known when it will happen. Then I will pay $20 for this "once in a lifetime"(month) chance to see Earl whoop someone! Also, in regular tournaments, they should wear a sponser jersey like a golfer or soccer player. In a challenge, they should wear some kind of suit. In the national, it should be an approved tux or similar to clearly show this is the champions game. These kinds of things will add interest, value and appeal. This will make Coors, Sam Adams, Tostitos, Mercedes, etc want to sponser the matchups.

Last, pay the freakin' players or be destroyed on the internet! Not just the promoter, but the location, DVD maker and all. Everyone pocketing a dime has an obligation to make sure players are paid first!

So, simply put:
1) Create an organization which can foster long term commitment on the part of the players.
2) Work on the format to increase appeal and reduce watching great players make simple shots.
3) Manage player images at the organizational level.
4) The (pool)porn site that another AZ'r is trying to get rolling!
5) Start by making us fans know where we can see the best match up every month within an hours drive or so!!
 
pool is not a sport

Definition of the word: "A sport is an organized, competitive, entertaining, and skillful activity requiring commitment, strategy, and fair play, in which a winner can be defined by objective means. It is governed by a set of rules or customs. Activities such as card games and board games, are classified as "mind sports" and some are recognized as Olympic sports, requiring primarily mental skills and mental physical involvement. Non-competitive activities, for example as jogging or playing catch are usually classified as forms of recreation."

Pool seems to fit the definition to me. Physical activity does not have anything to do with weather something is a Sport of not.
 
Geno... reading lessons are in order sir.

I said "IF...

Your numbers of an estimated $10Million seems extraordinarly HIGH.
All the tournament combined (Leagues, weekly, monthly, regional, Major) in the USA just might total $1Million maybe.

I respectfully disagree with your statement that the Billiard industy puts $2Million a year into Pool tournaments.

I do agree that there is very little organization.

Tom, I have to chime in on this as your statement is not correct. The Billiard industry in the US easily puts in $2 Million per year and that number is probably closer $10 Million PY just in tournaments and $15-20 Million if you count all the pool leagues.

The PROBLEM is that it is not organized. Right now it is a free-for-all with nobody having any advantage. Because of this, YES there are more tours and tournaments but each have less money now because the sponsorship it is so spread out. If we ever get down to say 6-8 major regional tours the prize monies would go up because they would absorb most the smaller events sponsorships and this would be conducive to creating a real pro tour . OR if they were all (all that are out there right now) organized under 1 body then we would also have something pretty good.

The BAD NEWS is,,,,,, neither of those 2 scenarios are going to happen anytime soon.
 
I find this thread to be interesting because people are being a lot more realistic about the issues than normal. Not sure why that is. But facing facts is the only way to move forward. Over at the Starting a pro pool tour thread things aren't so realistic.

But I have a question. Periodically people like Jay will say that it's the powers that be that are holding back pool. Either through lack of financing or marketing or listening to him or whatever. There are pool power brokers somewhere that are definitely the reason that pool hasn't been a success.

Could someone name names about who these Baaaadddd people are that can hold back what would otherwise would be a successful game/sport.

I personally don't believe it. To me it's definitely the poor business proposition that pool brings. But if I'm wrong I'd like to know who these people are rather than blaming faceless boogie men or women.
 
franchise info

This was tried, 15 years ago, to make pool, like baseball, every city would have its own team, and they were travel and play each other, and nobody would buy the first franchise and it folded very quickly. That was a great idea, that could have worked. :smile:

Please tell me what you know about the failed attempt. I do remember a $999 per area (based out of Reno) but it was for funding a big tournament - not a team/city concept.

I might learn a little bit more.

Thanks,

Mark Griffin
markg@playcsipool.com
 
Please tell me what you know about the failed attempt. I do remember a $999 per area (based out of Reno) but it was for funding a big tournament - not a team/city concept.

I might learn a little bit more.

Thanks,

Mark Griffin
markg@playcsipool.com

Mark...you will never get a response back from 'rorywayne' as he has been banned...having been outed as the now infamous Fast Larry...who has a lifetime ban on AZB.

Lisa
 
rorywayne

Mark...you will never get a response back from 'rorywayne' as he has been banned...having been outed as the now infamous Fast Larry...who has a lifetime ban on AZB.

Lisa

Now, I understand why I could NOT send a PM. Plus there are times I see an awareness of pool and its history - but some of his comments have been 'off the wall'.

Thanks for the heads up!

Mark Griffin
 
Visiting other industries and seeing how they operate is all I provide with this post.

Some college events invite, an alcohol distributor which includes a street team to giveout favors and mingle, a radio personality is invited to provide music and giveaways and mingle, a local group might be asked to perform most of these activities take place right on the sidewalk sometimes with nothing more than a folding table.

The pool events I did attend were the Derby, US Open and World 14.1. At none of the events did I see non-pool industries represented. The pool community seems insulated and does not recognize non-pool organizations at their events. I would like to attend a casino event but I could imagine how it would run, a sign saying pool event and then a seating area for pool goers.

I am not saying you need a major corporation to sponsor a whole event. I am talking about getting a local distributor to sell their products instead of selling it for them, let other industries do what they know best. Alcohol is a popular selling item at an entertainment show. Let a local distributor try to promote selling it, this way they bring their crowd to "spice things up." Sometimes a local music group has a strong following and just want their name to be heard, it does cost money but it is just an idea. Alternatives always exist. From what I saw the pool community is in the 40-1000 age group. I don't know what is popular with them, maybe cigarettes and car parts or cigarettes, beer, wine and tie dye shirts.

The idea I am selling is that the pool community is trying to provide an entire service to its community, instead of inviting the community to provide the services they have experience with. What would work for me is a food vendor market, multiple competitors, some type of entertainment maybe computer related and gambling and lots of it and somebody selling underwear and socks.

Of the things that can be put into action, getting a local distributor to put a table up with some music is easy, getting a local band to play requires electricity and protection from the rain, getting some food vendors to stop may take permits and getting someone from the factory to sell discarded underwear and socks may require someone with a van.

If I had the budget I'd invite nude models from magazine covers, local gear heads and people with sound systems. The demo at the pool events I saw are in need of major testosterone entertainment. A signing of a model would help them calm down, the gear heads might want to check out the rides, and the others can relax to some tunes. Or complain about how bad the music is. I suggest the professional models to take the heat off of the female players. Given the chance most guys would love to talk about how they said some nonsense to a porn star or cover girl instead of bad mouth a female player. They might even get a touch of the photo-op fever. Scratch that maybe the pool community is more into the sausage than I thought and might be interested in seeing dudes with length and guns and muscles than female curves.


I don't know if its been done to death, but other industries cross promote and invite other products to an event. If I had some money I would be selling food to the Filipinos from a truck or prepacked. I have been learning Japanese style food like sushi but it is cold food. Is Ham and Cabbage popular with the British, or battered fish? That Appleton guy I think he is British maybe he needs some Smoked Ham and cabbage soup.

I think the prepacked sales are more affordable but people want to see smoke and feel heat when they buy food.

(I want to be politically correct but I am playing on stereotypes. If I get the term or name incorrect it is because I am just thinking about the sales and not the offensive nature of the language, please correct me as needed.)

The point of this essay is to convince you that pool is just one type of entertainment and pool players and fans usually have multiple vices or needs. And providing those needs would help attract different people because of the trade offs of doing something or seeing something they never did before. Or doing something in a place that is different. The idea is the pool tournaments seem to want to make all the profits and provide all the products and services, there is no free market competition at the pool tournaments I have seen for non pool industries.

The effects of an insulated industry is the crowds stay about the same size or just shrink. Their products and services maintain reputation with long time customers but do not get exposure to new clients or customers. I have a feeling most of the vendors know this as common sense but some people have to think about it a while.

The tournament organizer at the large events with 200+ people seem to "take care of their customers and players" by making sure they have a place to stay, making sure they have a place to eat and making sure that they are around the fans. Classic monopoly style playing where the people are limited to what is available and the game is rigged because the organizer decides what is available and how it is available. My guess is if your not on the organizers list of vendors it is worse than being on the list because you need the traffic. But the organizer is not spending the cash to mix up the traffic and get them new customers. It is similar to a hot dog stand selling one brand of hot dogs instead of showing you the different brands of hot dogs because it cost more to put on a show of hot dogs. Sure the selling is making a killing by providing one type of hot dog but the customers are stuck with the complaint instead of demanding various types of hot dogs they just deal with it or decide the hot dog isn't worth it.
 
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