Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”

[sjm]

I favor "all ball fouls rules" in top level competition. To me, that means events in which the average entrant is at least 650 Fargo.

In most games, the amateurs and pros do not play by the same rules and guidelines. A few examples:

Baseball
College ballparks have smaller dimensions than a pro stadium and aluminum bats are allowed. Even minor league ballparks have shorter dimensions for the home run. These differences make lower levels of play more fun, more rewarding and more entertaining.

American Football
In college football, the rules for a catch are more lenient than in the pros, requiring a player to come down with just one foot in bounds rather than both. In college football, an opposing player need not touch you for you to be considered down by contact. It means that you get hit a little less. Many amateur leagues do not allow tackling at all. They play a version of football called flag football. Flag football is more fun than tackle football for the casual player.

Golf
Winter rules, which allow a player to move their ball slightly in the fairway but no closer to the hole, are customary in amateur golf, and were even used when I played on my high school team in 1974. Most amateur golfers play from different tee boxes than the pros, making the course shorter for them. The game is more fun and more rewarding for the amateur golfer because of these differences.

Most sports recognize that keeping the sport fun and rewarding for amateur and developing players must be a top priority if their game is to grow.

It is sad to see pool trying to go in a different direction. I believe that leagues like APA will, ultimately, stick with "cue ball fouls only" rules, which have offered needed latitude to the casual player for decades.

 

[straightline]

See the last sentence of 1.9 (not 1.8).

Say the shooter had a very specific shot that a ref could not begin to approximate. Rather than argue with a ref over specific placement, can the shooter ask for a stalemate on this basis? Also, since these accidents often happen in unsupervised situations, can the stalemate rule be applied?

 

[skor]

When I first started playing APA way back when, I found it amusing that the league rules where looser and more forgiving than the bar house rules the league would take place at…

So instead of getting more serious about the game and play by more strict rules, again, looking for the easy way.

So let’s see, the preferred American way to play pool is:
1. 7 foot tables
2. 5 inch pockets
3. CB fouls only
4. No call shot
What’s next?
5. No need to hit a rail?
6. No defense is allowed?

If playing pool is just an excuse to go out for beer and burgers, that’s just fine…

 

[JPB2]

When I first started playing APA way back when, I found it amusing that the league rules where looser and more forgiving than the bar house rules the league would take place at…

So instead of getting more serious about the game and play by more strict rules, again, looking for the easy way.

So let’s see, the preferred American way to play pool is:
1. 7 foot tables
2. 5 inch pockets
3. CB fouls only
4. No call shot
What’s next?
5. No need to hit a rail?
6. No defense is allowed?

If playing pool is just an excuse to go out for beer and burgers, that’s just fine…

your APA experience does not indicate the preferred American way to play pool, although I guess APA has a following.

 

[skor]

your APA experience does not indicate the preferred American way to play pool, although I guess APA has a following.

I wrote those things from I gather in this forum in the last few months.
Every time a discussion is started about making the game harder, the opposition is great. Americans want pool to be easy.

 

[dr_dave]

Despite the endless smugness, pyramid scheming, and backlink spamming that dr dave brings to the forum, he is correct on this…We need to change to all ball fouls. The game has evolved the past 5 years. Amateur pool needs to as well.

you forgot sciency stuff. wtf is up with that??

Wow! I didn't realize that me sharing free stuff was such an issue for some people.

 

[dr_dave]

Apart from the consternation that a low-hanging shirt touching (or not touching) a ball might cause in league matches, I think all ball fouls would be an enjoyable addition to the game. It forces the shooter to be more exact when cueing over or around balls and makes position play to a comfortable shooting zone more rewarding (or punishing if you play safe and your opponent must bridge over a ball).

If an individual is a part of a billiard league, it should be assumed that he/she enjoys and/or respects the game enough to follow the official rules. Leagues are social by nature but they’re also more formal and structured than going down to your local pub on Friday night and shooting a couple games with random bar patrons. Let the leagues abide by official rules and let the random bar-bangers play their house rules.

Well stated.

 

[skogstokig]

i jest

 

[dr_dave]

I favor "all ball fouls rules" in top level competition. To me, that means events in which the average entrant is at least 650 Fargo.

Most sports recognize that keeping the sport fun and rewarding for amateur and developing players must be a top priority if their game is to grow.

So are you in favor of also allowing all of the following in amateur leagues:

- hitting the CB twice.
- touching the CB by mistake.
- touching a ball with the CB with ball in hand.
- hitting the wrong ball first with the CB.
- not driving a ball to a rail after ball contact.
- not having a foot in contact with the floor during a hit.
- not driving 4 balls to rails on a break shot.
- pushing the CB.
- intentionally miscuing.
- intentionally jumping with a scoop shot.
- lifting of dropping the cue instead of stroking forward.
- driving a ball off the table.
- marking the cloth with a chalked tip.
- marking an aim point on the rail with a chalk or anything else.
- interfering with ball motion.
- not marking the pocket called for the 8.
- etc.!

This, which I call "No Ball Fouls" would certainly make the game simpler (and maybe more fun) for many of the participants. You just shoot however you want; and if something goes in, you keep shooting. In the Simple Foul to Add and Other Possible Rule Changes sections of the video, I make a strong argument that this is probably not a good thing. And in the "CB Fouls Only" Rules are More Complex section of the video, I explain why "CB Fouls Only" is actually worse (in terms of simplicity and fun) than "All Ball Fouls."

 

[fastone371]

Its a pointless nitty ass rule that has no weight over a game if a cuetip or finger brushed any ball
its only purpose seems to be starting needless controversy

 

[dr_dave]

Say the shooter had a very specific shot that a ref could not begin to approximate. Rather than argue with a ref over specific placement, can the shooter ask for a stalemate on this basis?

The shooter can ask for anything, but this is up to the ref to decide.

Also, since these accidents often happen in unsupervised situations

I think I have seen it happen only once in my 20 years of playing in league.

can the stalemate rule be applied?

Yes, if both players cannot agree to the pre-external-interference ball positions.

 

[sjm]

So are you in favor of also allowing all of the following in amateur leagues:

- hitting the CB twice.
- touching the CB by mistake.
- touching a ball with the CB with ball in hand.
- hitting the wrong ball first with the CB.
- not driving a ball to a rail after ball contact.
- not having a foot in contact with the floor during a hit.
- not driving 4 balls to rails on a break shot.
- pushing the CB.
- intentionally miscuing.
- intentionally jumping with a scoop shot.
- lifting of dropping the cue instead of stroking forward.
- driving a ball off the table.
- marking the cloth with a chalked tip.
- marking an aim point on the rail with a chalk or anything else.
- interfering with ball motion.
- not marking the pocket called for the 8.
- etc.!

This, which I call "No Ball Fouls" would certainly make the game simpler (and maybe more fun) for many of the participants. You just shoot however you want; and if something goes in, you keep shooting. In the Simple Foul to Add and Other Possible Rule Changes sections of the video, I make a strong argument that this is probably not a good thing. And in the "CB Fouls Only" Rules are More Complex section of the video, I explain why "CB Fouls Only" is actually worse (in terms of simplicity and fun) than "All Ball Fouls."

Not buying any of this. Allowance of playing with "cue ball fouls only" rule is as deeply embedded in the annals of amateur pool as disallowance of nearly all the "do nots" that you cite. Allowing any of the disallowed things you cite wouldn't make the game more fun, more entertaining, or more rewarding for the amateur. Allowing movement of an object ball (which is unintentional 99.9% of the time) does make the game more fun and more rewarding for the amateur, so its abolition would be a step backwards.

I'll be very surprised if APA, the undisputed authority on how to make pool fun for the amateur player, adopts "all ball fouls" any time soon.

 

[straightline]

I think I have seen it happen only once in my 20 years of playing in league.

In the last 20 years in the local bars, I've had it happen or done to me many times. Shooters have to share with the pedestrian traffic.

 

[DynoDan]

I don’t do ‘leagues’, but playing ‘all fouls’ most of my life, I’ve never called an opponent for a hair, shirt, etc. chickenshit foul.
I’ve warned, and an honorable player would then pay attention and correct.
While I am technically the ref when my opponent is shooting, I generally prefer the insight into his character over any enforcement advantage. In a close money game, if he touches a ball without realizing it but then gives me an argument, I would consider losing as ‘money well spent’.

 

[dr_dave]

Not buying any of this. Allowance of playing with "cue ball fouls only" rule is as deeply embedded in the annals of amateur pool as disallowance of nearly all the "do nots" that you cite. Allowing any of the disallowed things you cite wouldn't make the game more fun, more entertaining, or more rewarding for the amateur.

Any knowledgeable player who has played in leagues before knows that many (if not most) players (and many refs at the national tournaments) are clueless concerning how to accurately detect double hits and wrong-ball-first fouls. And bad or disagreeable calls in these situations, which come up often, certainly result in arguments, bad feelings, and less fun.

Would having fewer fouls in US amateur league play make the game more enjoyable for the bulk of the American league players? The list of possible fouls is currently very long. And the long description of all the special cases for "CB Fouls Only" is a bit ridiculous.

Maybe I should do a video on why the APA should embrace "No Ball Fouls." Just play and have fun. Don't worry about all the "silly" fouls called in other leagues like:
- CB touches with or without ball in hand
- double hits
- no rail contact after the hit with and without rail-frozen balls
- wrong-ball-first for close, near-split-hit shots
- push shots
- intentional miscues
- scoop jump shots
- cue lift shots (already allowed in the APA)
- driving balls off the table
- not having a foot on the floor during a hit
- not marking the pocket for the 8 (currently penalized in the APA)
- etc.!
What do you and others think?

 

[dr_dave]

In the last 20 years in the local bars, I've had it happen or done to me many times. Shooters have to share with the pedestrian traffic.

... in league play, or just when playing under drunken "bar rules?"

Whenever people in my league think a drunken slob might get too close during a shot, they let the drunken slob get out of the way first, or they politely ask them to move aside briefly.

 

[dr_dave]

I don’t do ‘leagues’, but playing ‘all fouls’ most of my life, I’ve never called an opponent for a hair, shirt, etc. chickenshit foul.
I’ve warned, and an honorable player would then pay attention and correct.
While I am technically the ref when my opponent is shooting, I generally prefer the insight into his character over any enforcement advantage. In a close money game, if he touches a ball without realizing it but then gives me an argument, I would consider losing as ‘money well spent’.

Well stated.

 

[BasementDweller]

As the opposing player, I don't mind being the defacto referee, who's responsible for being on the lookout for egregious fouls. I have no interest in wandering around while my opponent shoots, like Scott "the Shot" Smith, looking for clothing violations. This just doesn't sound like a fun way to play amateur pool.

 

[fastone371]

I think its disgusting when people let their hair lay all over everything on the table, that's one aspect that would make all ball fouls the proper way to play. With all of the cue ball only fouls you can get into with moving multiple balls, a ball passing thru the area a ball was moved from, repositioning a moved ball, etc I think all ball fouls would make it easier. If you were to play all ball fouls and you consider your league more social than competitive you also have the option to stop your opponent mid shot and tell them it looks like they touched a ball with clothing and let them reset without penalty, its a great learning experience for new players. I have done this with new players when I can see they are about to commit a foul, for example when 2 balls are almost but not quite touching and they are lining up to shoot directly into them. I have stopped them and explained how its going to be a foul, how you can tell its a foul and then I show them how to shoot it so its not a foul. All the people I have done this with have appreciated it so far.

 

[sjm]

Any knowledgeable player who has played in leagues before knows that many (if not most) players (and many refs at the national tournaments) are clueless concerning how to accurately detect double hits and wrong-ball-first fouls. And bad or disagreeable calls in these situations, which come up often, certainly result in arguments, bad feelings, and less fun.

Would having fewer fouls in US amateur league play make the game more enjoyable for the bulk of the American league players? The list of possible fouls is currently very long. And the long description of all the special cases for "CB Fouls Only" is a bit ridiculous.

Maybe I should do a video on why the APA should embrace "No Ball Fouls." Just play and have fun. Don't worry about all the "silly" fouls called in other leagues like:
- CB touches with or without ball in hand
- double hits
- no rail contact after the hit with and without rail-frozen balls
- wrong-ball-first for close, near-split-hit shots
- push shots
- intentional miscues
- scoop jump shots
- cue lift shots (already allowed in the APA)
- driving balls off the table
- not having a foot on the floor during a hit
- not marking the pocket for the 8 (currently penalized in the APA)
- etc.!
What do you and others think?

I'm dropping this debate. There's an old saying that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. The "cue ball fouls only" rules have served the amateur player well for decades, yet all of a sudden, the rule is a problem. I'm not sure when or how it became a problem. Don't fix it. I will cling to the hope that the major league operators understand this and will not adopt "all ball fouls."