The APA has too many unique rules, and I agree that they would never embrace the WPA official rules of pool. See:
But the APA serves a unique role, and they are very successful, so why should they want to change?
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Why Pool Leagues Should Embrace “ALL BALL FOULS”
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
The APA has too many unique rules, and I agree that they would never embrace the WPA official rules of pool. See:
But the APA serves a unique role, and they are very successful, so why should they want to change?
I watched the video and tried to keep an open mind. You actually make some really good points and in some ways, what you're proposing would simplify things. I'm not a proponent of the the rule change though and think for leagues and most formats where refs aren't present, all ball fouls isn't ideal.
I played in Denver's straight pool league out of Felt for a few years, which plays by all ball fouls. Tom Ross (friend of yours I believe) was adamant at the time that all ball fouls wasn't great, specifically because it's difficult to enforce without a ref present. I'm not trying to speak for him, but that's what I'm remembering his issue to be with it. I tend to agree about the ref piece, especially in regards to shirt fouls. At the time, I kind of liked it and for that league. Sometimes when setting your bridge hand, you lightly feather another ball with your hand or finger and your opponent doesn't see it and you're forced to have a moment of truth with yourself. It's really difficult to call a foul on yourself when on a run of say 20 or more, but I've done it. At first it sucks, but once in your chair, it's nice to have a feeling of honesty and integrity. The difference between that league and most is for that one, the average age of people in the league (at the time, this is around 10 years ago) was like 50-60 and the bulk of the members had been in the league for many years. Everyone knows everyone, you schedule matches with each other once a week, many are friends, etc. There weren't a whole lot of disagreements. Straight pool is an old timers game as well, that has it's own unique set of rules.
Ultimately, as others have said, I'm really hung up on things like shirt/hair fouls where many times the shooter won't be aware and it puts their opponent in a very uncomfortable position. I know you mentioned in your video you can let it go sometimes, but I don't think you can. You also showed examples of how to call it out and the person shooting maybe at first disagreeing, but then agreeing. In reality, I think the person being called out is likely to be defensive and continue to stay defensive no matter what, leaving both people unhappy, even if the person that saw the foul, calling the foul, lets it go.
I do think for professional types of events with refs present it makes sense. For example, I think it works well at the Mosconi cup.
I played in Denver's straight pool league out of Felt for a few years, which plays by all ball fouls. Tom Ross (friend of yours I believe) was adamant at the time that all ball fouls wasn't great, specifically because it's difficult to enforce without a ref present. I'm not trying to speak for him, but that's what I'm remembering his issue to be with it. I tend to agree about the ref piece, especially in regards to shirt fouls. At the time, I kind of liked it and for that league. Sometimes when setting your bridge hand, you lightly feather another ball with your hand or finger and your opponent doesn't see it and you're forced to have a moment of truth with yourself. It's really difficult to call a foul on yourself when on a run of say 20 or more, but I've done it. At first it sucks, but once in your chair, it's nice to have a feeling of honesty and integrity. The difference between that league and most is for that one, the average age of people in the league (at the time, this is around 10 years ago) was like 50-60 and the bulk of the members had been in the league for many years. Everyone knows everyone, you schedule matches with each other once a week, many are friends, etc. There weren't a whole lot of disagreements. Straight pool is an old timers game as well, that has it's own unique set of rules.
Ultimately, as others have said, I'm really hung up on things like shirt/hair fouls where many times the shooter won't be aware and it puts their opponent in a very uncomfortable position. I know you mentioned in your video you can let it go sometimes, but I don't think you can. You also showed examples of how to call it out and the person shooting maybe at first disagreeing, but then agreeing. In reality, I think the person being called out is likely to be defensive and continue to stay defensive no matter what, leaving both people unhappy, even if the person that saw the foul, calling the foul, lets it go.
I do think for professional types of events with refs present it makes sense. For example, I think it works well at the Mosconi cup.
Possibly in a 600 Fargo and above league it might work.
Or maybe leagues could enforce these rules in the season finals #1 vs #2 to get prepped for the Nationals.
But get a certified ref for sure if calls need to be made.
The third party ruling (refs decision) cuts out the bar ''stuff''.
Ain't happening.
Have you played lots of pool leagues or tournaments? Good luck making everyone angels
Golf is not a good example. There are cheaters even at the pro level. Golf could be more fun with less rules
... like getting a Mulligan if you touch the ball by mistake with your foot or club?
Ironically they have recently added rules exceptions in golf like that, on the tee. Because sometimes the rules make things problematic or less fun. Like all ball fouls in pool... like getting a Mulligan if you touch the ball by mistake with your foot or club?
In golf, if a ball falls off the tee or is accidentally knocked off by the player in the teeing area before a stroke has been made, there is no penalty incurred. The rules of golf provide a player the flexibility to re-tee the ball without any additional strokes being added to their score. This can happen due to wind, inadvertent actions by the player, or other factors. The player is allowed to re-tee the ball on the original or a different tee within the boundaries of the teeing area to attempt their stroke again.
No, like playing however you want and not worrying about rules until rules matter. When they do matter, like in competition, as long as they're the same for everyone then everyone who voluntarily entered that competition follows the same rules. It doesn't really matter what those rules are. I play lots of golf, and it's golf no matter what rules I apply, but I don't compete with anyone but myself. I have no desire to do so - I get plenty of enjoyment competing with the me of yesterday or of last week or of last year. At the end of the day, when someone asks me how I did, they don't ask me what rules I used. I know whether I played well or poorly, and that's how I answer. Then I go home and forget about it until tomorrow. Almost everyone at the golf course where I play does the same thing. Our rules differ, but we're all playing golf, and some of us are even enjoying some friendly competition with friends, by rules to which everyone agreed, and always different than what the R&A or USGA say.... like getting a Mulligan if you touch the ball by mistake with your foot or club?
The big hang-up here seems to be disagreements and hard feelings. Over 30 years of running leagues tells me there will always be disagreements and hard feelings when you combine rules (ANY rules) and people, so any attempt to eliminate those things will be unsuccessful. Since you can't run any kind of competition without rules though, you have to decide what you do want your rules to accomplish. All ball fouls can be more black-and-white and lead to fewer disagreements about what happened or the resolution, but it also makes the game more punitive and less fun for people just beginning on their journey through the sport or those who just want to play and have no desire to improve. If, the first time I went to an actual golf course, I hit the ball into a bush and was told I had to drop the ball behind the bush (by rule the bush is almost always between where you have to drop and the hole) and had to hit over or around the bush time after time, I would probably never go back. No disagreements, no arguments, just a game that, when played by the strictest of rules, is no fun for a beginner.
APA, in acknowledgement that rules are needed so everyone competing can be compared (skill level wise and win/loss wise), has endeavored to come up with a set that doesn't make the game so hard that raw beginners want to quit. Plenty still do, but many find the rules at least palatable to the point where they can enjoy themselves and experience some base level of competition. APA has been more successful at that than any other organization with any set of rules, bringing beginners into the sport (the only way I know to actually grow the sport). Do they claim that other organizations should adopt their rule set? No, because the other organizations may have different goals. Claiming there is only one set of official rules is a farce and is quite pretentious. Every set of rules is official once someone decides to use them. Being the first to adopt the "official" rules is a ridiculous claim, no matter who you are. Your rules were already "official". All you did was change them.
Claiming to be the governing body of anything is also a farce - even the APA has trademarked the phrase "The Governing Body of Amateur Pool". It's just a phrase, one no other organization in the USA can use. It's not like there's some omnipotent entity who bestowed that title upon them - they were just the first to trademark it. Claiming to be some "Governing Body" with "Official Rules" is just that - an empty claim. Governing bodies only govern those who agree to be governed by them, and every set of rules is official as soon as someone agrees to use them.
No mulligan but the 2023 rules eased up on the moving ball rules in some situations.... like getting a Mulligan if you touch the ball by mistake with your foot or club?
I've played in leagues since the 1970s and had some success in tournaments. I think if it's clear to players that certain rules are in effect, most will behave well.
The rules also specify if you grounded your club and the ball moves for any reason, it is a penalty even when you did not move or swing your club after grounding the head of the club behind the ball, albeit still motionless and merely touching the turf. The only exemption is on the putting green where this rule does not apply. There is zero flexibility in applying the rule about grounding a club and never even moving it...totally motionless…..and the golf ball moves. Even if a wind gust unexpectedly moved the golf ball, you just got hit with a one stroke penalty if you grounded your club.
Watch Jack Nicklaus films of his golf tournaments. Nicklaus always avoided grounding his irons or woods preparing to swing. Aside from perhaps accidentally letting his golf club make contact with the turf of ground, Jack hovered his golf clubs in the air barely above and behind the golf ball to avoid grounding his club just in case the golf ball inadvertently moved because of wind or any other reason automatically invoking a one stroke penalty.
If my memory is correct, there are only 25 rules in golf but the decisions book is hundreds of pages long covering rules interpretations and decisions. In reality, there is zero, nada, zippo, squat, zilch chances of the rules of golf allowing a player to circumvent any rule. For example, a golf ball falling off a golf tee at the tee box is specifically covered as well as pretty much anything you can pretty much imagine. It’s why the decisions book is so friggin huge because it addresses anything that can occur during a round obeying the established rules. It is a comprehensive explanation of the rules requirements & application.
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Don't take my word for it. If anyone wants the truth, talk to a bunch of tournament directors. You'll figure out why all ball fouls is not common
The point is golf made a rule to make the game more fun and less strict. Which is ironic considering the arguments in this thread and the number of rules in golf
It really surprises me that a group of people who are what I thought are the more serious type of players would shun the idea of all ball fouls.
There should be only one set of rules for any game. It is just a matter of how casual the competition, and thus how much cheating is overlooked. Beginners never know all the rules. When I began, the only penalized foul we kids recognized was a scratch.
As play becomes more serious, players typically also become more knowledgeable, and thus more conscious that no amount of cheating should be tolerated. The 45 degree/double-hit league rule may be a good way to avoid arguments, but even then, I would only play that shot as a last resort, since I know it is cheating.
As play becomes more serious, players typically also become more knowledgeable, and thus more conscious that no amount of cheating should be tolerated. The 45 degree/double-hit league rule may be a good way to avoid arguments, but even then, I would only play that shot as a last resort, since I know it is cheating.
Because the more experience you have the more you realize the problems it creates. In a perfect world the rule is fine, but someone always wants to cheat and call bad fouls. Especially when money at stake