Why so many?

[1ab]

Recently a thread about cue ball control brought to light possible advantages through stroke mechanics. Posts concerning the subject of accurately forecasting cue ball position are fairly frequent, and I am always trying to take what I learn here to the table. That being said, I've recognized an inordinate amount of average players who seem to have this area of expertise,as the weakest part of their game. I remember a youtube video in which Mike Page began his instruction by referencing an experiment that combined the talents of highly skilled players being directed by average players on what shot to make and what cue ball position to leave. He said the results were dismal and certainly not what the average players had expected. The most obvious conclusion was that expected results not only exceeded limitations, but at times the estimated cue ball position was physically impossible. What is most attributable to this general lack of knowledge? Is it due to more emphasis placed on another part of the game? Is it's importance not given it's due? Why is this so common? I struggle to get my league teammates to remember aspects of tangents and A paths, let alone B and C paths. I sometimes feel alone as I try to stress the importance of growth in this area as it may lead to skill levels, at this point, we,as average players, only witness.

 

[Cdryden]

Recently a thread about cue ball control brought to light possible advantages through stroke mechanics. Posts concerning the subject of accurately forecasting cue ball position are fairly frequent, and I am always trying to take what I learn here to the table. That being said, I've recognized an inordinate amount of average players who seem to have this area of expertise,as the weakest part of their game. I remember a youtube video in which Mike Page began his instruction by referencing an experiment that combined the talents of highly skilled players being directed by average players on what shot to make and what cue ball position to leave. He said the results were dismal and certainly not what the average players had expected. The most obvious conclusion was that expected results not only exceeded limitations, but at times the estimated cue ball position was physically impossible. What is most attributable to this general lack of knowledge? Is it due to more emphasis placed on another part of the game? Is it's importance not given it's due? Why is this so common? I struggle to get my league teammates to remember aspects of tangents and A paths, let alone B and C paths. I sometimes feel alone as I try to stress the importance of growth in this area as it may lead to skill levels, at this point, we,as average players, only witness.

First off, great post. I think most people try to do too much with the cue ball and that leads to poor position. I have been guilty of it many times. The importance of the ability to keep things simple can not be overstated. Your high level players are usually very adept at keeping things simple, seeing the obvious path and not trying to finesse the ball too much.
Kind of like when a player first learns how to draw the CB, next thing you know every shot is a draw shot....whether it needs to be or not.

 

[Sofla]

As an exercise, a friend suggested placing a dime where you thought the cue ball line after object ball contact would pass. Success was when the cue ball hit any part of the dime on its roll.

Surprising how far off I was at first, although I surprised him as well when I began to hit it dead on after a few tries. Very instructional since an inch or two one way or the other may get you out of line for the next shot.

Another simple drill to make players accountable is for them to state the next shot and pocket before shooting. Also surprising how often the pocket or ball needs to be changed from what was thought to be the shape/pocket one was playing.

 

[Black-Balled]

I agree... Great op.

 

[randyg]

Recently a thread about cue ball control brought to light possible advantages through stroke mechanics. Posts concerning the subject of accurately forecasting cue ball position are fairly frequent, and I am always trying to take what I learn here to the table. That being said, I've recognized an inordinate amount of average players who seem to have this area of expertise,as the weakest part of their game. I remember a youtube video in which Mike Page began his instruction by referencing an experiment that combined the talents of highly skilled players being directed by average players on what shot to make and what cue ball position to leave. He said the results were dismal and certainly not what the average players had expected. The most obvious conclusion was that expected results not only exceeded limitations, but at times the estimated cue ball position was physically impossible. What is most attributable to this general lack of knowledge? Is it due to more emphasis placed on another part of the game? Is it's importance not given it's due? Why is this so common? I struggle to get my league teammates to remember aspects of tangents and A paths, let alone B and C paths. I sometimes feel alone as I try to stress the importance of growth in this area as it may lead to skill levels, at this point, we,as average players, only witness.

Great post.

Let me add another chain of thought.

The better your aiming system a lesser importance is placed on cue ball control.

randyg

 

[Neil]

Great post.

Let me add another chain of thought.

The better your aiming system a lesser importance is placed on cue ball control.

randyg

I'm surprised to hear you say that! I have found that having a better aiming system, frees me up more for better cb control.

 

[3kushn]

I think that's his point.

 

[Push&Pool]

Really good post. I'm surprised, though, that everybody seems to have missed the obvious answer. Lower and average players often don't try to gain position at all, they focus only on shot making. Moreover, they tend to blast the CB full power head on, like they're ramming city gates or trying to immitate Death Star's planet-destroying main weapon, and it can be hard to get good position under those circumstances.

 

[Cdryden]

Really good post. I'm surprised, though, that everybody seems to have missed the obvious answer. Lower and average players often don't try to gain position at all, they focus only on shot making. Moreover, they tend to blast the CB full power head on, like they're ramming city gates or trying to immitate Death Star's planet-destroying main weapon, and it can be hard to get good position under those circumstances.

Wow, coming from you...just...wow.

 

[JB Cases]

Great post.

Let me add another chain of thought.

The better your aiming system a lesser importance is placed on cue ball control.

randyg

I'm surprised to hear you say that! I have found that having a better aiming system, frees me up more for better cb control.

Like Neil I have found that using an aiming system has led to much greater cue ball control.

But I have also found that I am much more daring in my shot making as well because of the aiming system.

In response to the op pros pick paths of least resistance. The have learned this through experience mostly. Amateurs frequently think they are choosing good patterns but the shots are just a little tougher, the position a little trickier and that leads to more errors.

It is called being in line. That means always staying on the right side of the ball to let position happen rather than to have to force position. Amateurs get out of line a lot and while they can make the shots they can't always get back in line.

The comment about pros playing according to amateur instruction is accurate. Amateurs often do not really know what the right position is.

 

[jburkm002]

I am 45 and am trying to take baby steps in improving my game. I don't play as much as I use to but play enough. I watched videos on this and that. For now I am focusing on natural position center english give me and better angles. Thinking more about my next shot and the angle I want for the next shot. To often I had the mentality well if I get out of line I can just use fancy english to get back in line. Sure that can work but I want to be more consistent in shot making. Focus and over playing english have always been an issue for me.

 

[bdorman]

IMHO amateurs (like me) don't have enough experience to know how the CB will react in all situations. The one that stills throws me off is when the OB is close to the rail on a cut shot. I keep forgetting that draw/stun/follow isn't going to have as much impact because the CB is going to hit the rail before it has any chance of deviating from the tangent line.

"Darn, why didn't that shot draw back the way I expected? Instead it went nearly straight across the table!" It's because even though the CB had lots of draw, it struck the cushion while the CB was still on the tangent line.

Another one is the amount of speed I have to add when using inside english to "straighten out" the rebound of the CB off the cushion. That inside english really kills the momentum of the CB! If I had used outside english the CB would have traveled all the way down-table. But at the same speed, the CB dies after going just two diamonds away from the cushion.

 

[peteypooldude]

I've got a guy I practice with at times who is constantly complaining and making excuses about why he can't get out. I have told him a 1000 times that you can't run out in rotation when you shoot the 1 and ask.... Now where's that 2 ball lol

 

[Scott Lee]

Another important variable, Chris, is that many players mistakenly believe that sidespin causes the CB to curve, which is not true. Only top and bottom cause the the CB to bend...either across the tangent, or away from it. I'm talking about normal cue elevations...not masse' or deliberate swerve shots. One of the simplest ways to teach someone about the tangent line, is to put an OB on the spot; put the CB about a foot away, at a slight angle towards the corner pocket (you can make it 30 degrees, but the physics works the same, whether the cut is easier or harder...so make it easier, I usually set up a 15 degree cut). Tell the shooter you want them to aim at centerball, and skid the CB into the OB. Before they shoot, ask them to point to the place on the rail (better yet, have them put a piece of chalk on the rail) where they believe the CB will go to. If they don't point to the side pocket, they don't understand tangent line physics. A sliding CB, shot into a ball on the spot, at any angle, will leave at 90 degrees...which is the side pocket. Then show them how top makes the CB bend towards the side rail, and draw makes it bend away from the side rail. This is something I do with every student, in every lesson. It takes less than 2 minutes, but it's proof positive whether someone understands how tangent line physics works...or not!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

First off, great post. I think most people try to do too much with the cue ball and that leads to poor position. I have been guilty of it many times. The importance of the ability to keep things simple can not be overstated. Your high level players are usually very adept at keeping things simple, seeing the obvious path and not trying to finesse the ball too much.
Kind of like when a player first learns how to draw the CB, next thing you know every shot is a draw shot....whether it needs to be or not.

 

[ctyhntr]

Scott,

I can attest to that I used to believe sidespin curved the cueball because I read it from Mosconi's book. I also believed you should hold the cue 6 inches away from the balance point, which is also subjective.

Another important variable, Chris, is that many players mistakenly believe that sidespin causes the CB to curve, which is not true. Only top and bottom cause the the CB to bend...either across the tangent, or away from it. I'm talking about normal cue elevations...not masse' or deliberate swerve shots. One of the simplest ways to teach someone about the tangent line, is to put an OB on the spot; put the CB about a foot away, at a slight angle towards the corner pocket (you can make it 30 degrees, but the physics works the same, whether the cut is easier or harder...so make it easier, I usually set up a 15 degree cut). Tell the shooter you want them to aim at centerball, and skid the CB into the OB. Before they shoot, ask them to point to the place on the rail (better yet, have them put a piece of chalk on the rail) where they believe the CB will go to. If they don't point to the side pocket, they don't understand tangent line physics. A sliding CB, shot into a ball on the spot, at any angle, will leave at 90 degrees...which is the side pocket. Then show them how top makes the CB bend towards the side rail, and draw makes it bend away from the side rail. This is something I do with every student, in every lesson. It takes less than 2 minutes, but it's proof positive whether someone understands how tangent line physics works...or not!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[michael4]

What is most attributable to this general lack of knowledge? .

I believe the average lower level player is not aware of the line the CB will naturally follow after each shot.... (this is step one)

 

[PaulieB]

I believe the average lower level player is not aware of the line the CB will naturally follow after each shot.... (this is step one)

Spot on. But honestly, this is due to the fact that most low level players are still trying to pocket balls, they aren't worrying about where the CB goes.

 

[Donny Lutz]

Don't separate potting balls and cue ball control

Spot on. But honestly, this is due to the fact that most low level players are still trying to pocket balls, they aren't worrying about where the CB goes.

And therein lies the problem.

Novices may spend years just trying to pocket balls before even thinking about position. And some instructors reinforce this a bit by teaching how to pocket balls BEFORE learning position play. The result is that the student often has to re-learn how to pocket balls as s/he learns how to work the CB.

Not me. I think it's foolish to separate they two, as you accomplish both with one stroke of the cue.

I teach cue ball control at the same time as pocketing object balls. It's not that big a deal. It begins with simply pocketing easy shots and watching where the cue ball goes, then watching what happens to the object ball AND the cue ball when the CB is struck off center. I've found that this approach dramatically speeds up the learning process...

 

[CreeDo]

Another important variable, Chris, is that many players mistakenly believe that sidespin causes the CB to curve, which is not true. Only top and bottom cause the the CB to bend...either across the tangent, or away from it. I'm talking about normal cue elevations...not masse' or deliberate swerve shots.

This one is huge and it took me a while to overcome my thinking on this.
How many times have you seen a player get too straight on a ball,
and try to move the cueball more with sidespin - even when they're not going to touch a rail?
Like they think putting right spin on the ball makes the cue ball move more to the right.
So they fram it with maximum right and throw the shot right out of the hole.

I think another obstacle for midlevel players is... they read about the theory of tangent lines
and such, but they don't hit the cue ball consistently enough to make the the cueball path
match the diagram in a book. Like the accidentally allow it to pick up topspin, or draw a little,
or the ball picks up sidespin on the rails, etc. So they kind of lose faith in tangent lines
and stop thinking about the EXACT path of the cue ball. Later if you can show them how to make
a ball move exactly on that line, it becomes clear it's not just "on paper", it has practical use.

 

[1ab]

And therein lies the problem.

Novices may spend years just trying to pocket balls before even thinking about position. And some instructors reinforce this a bit by teaching how to pocket balls BEFORE learning position play. The result is that the student often has to re-learn how to pocket balls as s/he learns how to work the CB.

Not me. I think it's foolish to separate they two, as you accomplish both with one stroke of the cue.

I teach cue ball control at the same time as pocketing object balls. It's not that big a deal. It begins with simply pocketing easy shots and watching where the cue ball goes, then watching what happens to the object ball AND the cue ball when the CB is struck off center. I've found that this approach dramatically speeds up the learning process...

I must admit when I received instructions as a lad, one statement I tried to accept, but couldn't until years later was "this game ain't about makin' a shot, it's about makin' the next shot". I believe you're right, if position play would be presented as part of the basic game rather than a subsequent strategy it would change the learning curve greatly.