why tip expand upon application?

evergruven

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
got a one-piece tip, my man put it on the stick
tried to trim it to fit shaft profile without success
the tip expanded like one of those sponges you put in water
it just kept growing
has anybody ever experienced this?
why might this have happened?

ps it's ugly but doesn't play bad
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
got a one-piece tip, my man put it on the stick
tried to trim it to fit shaft profile without success
the tip expanded like one of those sponges you put in water
it just kept growing
has anybody ever experienced this?
why might this have happened?

ps it's ugly but doesn't play bad

Im guessing milk dud?

Lots of single layer tips can 'fluff' out, because there isnt a lot of consistency from tip to tip.

Elkmasters are well known to do this, even when pressed ala milk dud.

If your tip guy is reputable, he should replace it no charge assuming it was his tip. If you brought it to him for install only, you should pay to have it changed out.
 

evergruven

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Im guessing milk dud?

Lots of single layer tips can 'fluff' out, because there isnt a lot of consistency from tip to tip.

Elkmasters are well known to do this, even when pressed ala milk dud.

If your tip guy is reputable, he should replace it no charge assuming it was his tip. If you brought it to him for install only, you should pay to have it changed out.

thanks river
the tip was a gift, I'm not sure what it is exactly
but I paid for it, and also it's eventual replacement :D
when tips fluff out like this, are they automatically bunk or ?
I was thinking about trying an elkmaster next..never tried one before
 

EddieBme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
got a one-piece tip, my man put it on the stick
tried to trim it to fit shaft profile without success
the tip expanded like one of those sponges you put in water
it just kept growing
has anybody ever experienced this?
why might this have happened?

ps it's ugly but doesn't play bad

Was it an elkmaster, and did he use a lathe to do the trimming or a razor etc.?
 

jrctherake

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thanks river
the tip was a gift, I'm not sure what it is exactly
but I paid for it, and also it's eventual replacement :D
when tips fluff out like this, are they automatically bunk or ?
I was thinking about trying an elkmaster next..never tried one before

If your looking for (as you said) sponge-like hit/feel, well, yep....get an elk master.

What tip have you been using and why did you change?

Jeff
 

RiverCity

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thanks river
the tip was a gift, I'm not sure what it is exactly
but I paid for it, and also it's eventual replacement :D
when tips fluff out like this, are they automatically bunk or ?
I was thinking about trying an elkmaster next..never tried one before

The typically will continue to flake when they blow out like that, best to just replace it.

Elkmasters are so soft, you can shape them, pound some center ball hits, and the tip will be flattened out almost completely. I have tried various milk duds over the years, and have never been impressed. If you want a tip that hits 'medium' hard, start with one that is designed to do so.

Tips arent rocket science, some are complete shit off the get go, and others are good. Which one you prefer is just that, up to your personal preferences.

Most of the name brands you hear bandied about are fine tips, find one you like and stick to it.

Some people will inevitably talk shit about some brands because of a bad experience. Some might be based on counterfeit tips, of which there are a lot of, so if you want to buy your own tips, buy from trusted online retailers.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
dull tool?

got a one-piece tip, my man put it on the stick
tried to trim it to fit shaft profile without success
the tip expanded like one of those sponges you put in water
it just kept growing
has anybody ever experienced this?
why might this have happened?

ps it's ugly but doesn't play bad


Never seen this happen hand shaping with a sharp tool. lathe shaping with a dull tool or the wrong tool angle, yes it is common.

I did an entire article on exacto knife blades about the time a magazine folded. Some blades start out a lot sharper than others, stay sharp longer too. Premium blades are worth the price. The other thing, if the blade is just laid on a flat surface as is common, the bevel of the blade creates a negative rake. Can't get a clean scraping cut like that and it dulls the blade rapidly.

Hu
 

kevoka

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Never seen this happen hand shaping with a sharp tool. lathe shaping with a dull tool or the wrong tool angle, yes it is common.

I did an entire article on exacto knife blades about the time a magazine folded. Some blades start out a lot sharper than others, stay sharp longer too. Premium blades are worth the price. The other thing, if the blade is just laid on a flat surface as is common, the bevel of the blade creates a negative rake. Can't get a clean scraping cut like that and it dulls the blade rapidly.

Hu

Is the article available online to read?
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Gold Member
Silver Member
Never seen this happen hand shaping with a sharp tool. lathe shaping with a dull tool or the wrong tool angle, yes it is common.

I did an entire article on exacto knife blades about the time a magazine folded. Some blades start out a lot sharper than others, stay sharp longer too. Premium blades are worth the price. The other thing, if the blade is just laid on a flat surface as is common, the bevel of the blade creates a negative rake. Can't get a clean scraping cut like that and it dulls the blade rapidly.

Hu

A chisel grind blade will eliminate these problems.

X-Acto #17
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
yes it would!

A chisel grind blade will eliminate these problems.

X-Acto #17


Yes it would work and take care of the bevel issue. Not much cutting surface so I don't know how long they would last. However, good to know that option is out there. I found a single bevel utility knife blade but it seems to be for heavy duty use. Heavy duty blades tend to be dull.

The same people have a ton of specialty blades so might be worth contacting.

Hu

Single bevel blades:
https://www.razorbladeco.com/61-0021-chisel-edge-trimmer-blade-100-blades
 

evergruven

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Was it an elkmaster, and did he use a lathe to do the trimming or a razor etc.?

a lathe was used and multiple blades were also used to trip the tip
just couldn't get it flush
so..flush?
bad tip, it sounds like

(if you couldn't tell)
I don't have a lot of experience with tips
I got a new cue recently that came with a tip
made of what appears to be compressed paper
it actually played fine for me
til it started to mushroom
there was no going back
time to change

will try a proper elkmaster next and report back
thanks all for the replies..learning here
 

Tom1234

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From my experience, you should press an Elkmaster tip first. I usually press for a couple of days. I have also found that moistening the tip before trimming to size also helps. Best of luck. I just use a Triangle tip and still get the feel and sound of a soft tip.
 

Nick B

This is gonna hurt
Silver Member
From my experience, you should press an Elkmaster tip first. I usually press for a couple of days. I have also found that moistening the tip before trimming to size also helps. Best of luck. I just use a Triangle tip and still get the feel and sound of a soft tip.
When I used to go old school I had a setup that pressed 4 at a time in a vice with the tops in a cone shape approaching a dime (I would leave under compression for 2 days or longer). I would say that 1 in 4 would just blow up. Another 25% would crack or not look right. Only 25-30% of all tips were worth putting on. Mind you these are unscientific numbers from cheap Elk Masters. Your results may vary. At minimum if I didn't have any pressed around I would put on a flat surface and knock the softness out of them with a hammer and the sand the bottoms.

Elk Masters will also soak up the glue. This is generally not a problem because you should never play a tip down that far....any tip. Especially with a soft LD type ferule.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
last time I tested elkmaster tips

Wrote a book as I often do. Some might find the information interesting and find that it adds to their knowledge of leather and tips. Some might want to stop right here! Like much of my information, this might be dated.



We used to just throw single layer tips in a cup of water. Tossed them if they floated, used them if they sunk. Here is how my last box of Elkmaster's tested.

I dont mind a quick wetting before cutting but I don't like soaking tips. With the low price of digital scales now I used a digital caliper locked in place to quickly confirm outside dimensions on the tips, then I weigh them. A few less than ten were very light, I tossed them. Less than fifty cents a tip, no big deal. Roughly thirty-seven of the tips fell into one of two very consistent lots of the same weight. Three or four fell in another grouping, very heavy. I used the tips out of the two medium lots to make milkduds or install on my own shafts just as they were. All of these worked fine. I wanted to test the very heavy tips but they were lost in a flood.

Elkmasters use some kind of a chromium treatment to tan their leather.(zinc chromate?) It gives the tips a blueish color. They seem to enhance that color a little with blue chalk dust these days. I don't remember this with the Elkmasters from earlier times, much earlier.

An issue with all leather, the quality of the hide. Most comes from slaughter houses and at least here in the US most are well taken care of that come from these controlled conditions. The care for hides can be far worse in some places. Also, some hides come from cows that die on the range, particularly winter killed cows. The condition of these hides is often open to question and the position of the cow on the ground may mean that part of the hide is salvageable, part shouldn't be salvaged. This may be the only thing salvaged from dead cattle so the judgment is tainted by trying to salvage something from the loss of an animal. Hides are questionable from many countries. Not as bad here in the US but it can happen, especially since the hide may be of varying quality in different places on the animal.

The tanning process is another issue. There isn't one simple tanning process, there are seemingly countless ways to tan a hide. "Tanning" comes from using the tannic acid primarily from oak trees. Brains can be used for tanning also, many different things including harsh chemicals. The tanning process can be very time sensitive and if the tanning process isn't controlled properly or the acids or other chemicals used aren't completely cleaned from the hide or "killed" the process can continue severely weakening the finished product. The cheapest tanning process is seldom the best.

While I am talking specifically about cow hides here, the same things apply to all hides that are tanned. The best leather comes from hides carefully cared for and carefully tanned. Many many things can affect the quality of the final product.

A side note: I would have thought an artificial tip would have replaced leather long ago. I do know that synthetic tips are out there but they don't seem to gain public approval. Some rules specify leather also.

I wrote a book here, hopefully to aid people in understanding why their buddies all bought Acme tips and they were great, you bought one and it was crapola! Unless somebody has quality hide or leather suppliers or keeps a careful eye on the quality of the leather they receive to make tips from, it is very easy to get a bad hide or piece of leather sometimes. Major manufacturers may not have quality controls in place to keep up with the volume of tips they make. This is one reason I don't use layered tips. If one layer is bad the tip may come apart either in the installation or normal use through no fault of the cuesmith or player.

A final note, If you know the area a tannery is in within a half mile or so you can find it by following your nose. They are infamous for the foul smell that makes paper mills and turkey farms smell like flower gardens in comparison!

Hu
 

rikdee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
From my experience, you should press an Elkmaster tip first. I usually press for a couple of days. I have also found that moistening the tip before trimming to size also helps. Best of luck. I just use a Triangle tip and still get the feel and sound of a soft tip.

Yes, for many years I have "pre-conditioned" LePro tips: Place on a firm surface and tap lightly, two or three times, with a hammer. Then mount and trim once.
 

evergruven

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Wrote a book as I often do. Some might find the information interesting and find that it adds to their knowledge of leather and tips. Some might want to stop right here! Like much of my information, this might be dated.



We used to just throw single layer tips in a cup of water. Tossed them if they floated, used them if they sunk. Here is how my last box of Elkmaster's tested.

I dont mind a quick wetting before cutting but I don't like soaking tips. With the low price of digital scales now I used a digital caliper locked in place to quickly confirm outside dimensions on the tips, then I weigh them. A few less than ten were very light, I tossed them. Less than fifty cents a tip, no big deal. Roughly thirty-seven of the tips fell into one of two very consistent lots of the same weight. Three or four fell in another grouping, very heavy. I used the tips out of the two medium lots to make milkduds or install on my own shafts just as they were. All of these worked fine. I wanted to test the very heavy tips but they were lost in a flood.

Elkmasters use some kind of a chromium treatment to tan their leather.(zinc chromate?) It gives the tips a blueish color. They seem to enhance that color a little with blue chalk dust these days. I don't remember this with the Elkmasters from earlier times, much earlier.

An issue with all leather, the quality of the hide. Most comes from slaughter houses and at least here in the US most are well taken care of that come from these controlled conditions. The care for hides can be far worse in some places. Also, some hides come from cows that die on the range, particularly winter killed cows. The condition of these hides is often open to question and the position of the cow on the ground may mean that part of the hide is salvageable, part shouldn't be salvaged. This may be the only thing salvaged from dead cattle so the judgment is tainted by trying to salvage something from the loss of an animal. Hides are questionable from many countries. Not as bad here in the US but it can happen, especially since the hide may be of varying quality in different places on the animal.

The tanning process is another issue. There isn't one simple tanning process, there are seemingly countless ways to tan a hide. "Tanning" comes from using the tannic acid primarily from oak trees. Brains can be used for tanning also, many different things including harsh chemicals. The tanning process can be very time sensitive and if the tanning process isn't controlled properly or the acids or other chemicals used aren't completely cleaned from the hide or "killed" the process can continue severely weakening the finished product. The cheapest tanning process is seldom the best.

While I am talking specifically about cow hides here, the same things apply to all hides that are tanned. The best leather comes from hides carefully cared for and carefully tanned. Many many things can affect the quality of the final product.

A side note: I would have thought an artificial tip would have replaced leather long ago. I do know that synthetic tips are out there but they don't seem to gain public approval. Some rules specify leather also.

I wrote a book here, hopefully to aid people in understanding why their buddies all bought Acme tips and they were great, you bought one and it was crapola! Unless somebody has quality hide or leather suppliers or keeps a careful eye on the quality of the leather they receive to make tips from, it is very easy to get a bad hide or piece of leather sometimes. Major manufacturers may not have quality controls in place to keep up with the volume of tips they make. This is one reason I don't use layered tips. If one layer is bad the tip may come apart either in the installation or normal use through no fault of the cuesmith or player.

A final note, If you know the area a tannery is in within a half mile or so you can find it by following your nose. They are infamous for the foul smell that makes paper mills and turkey farms smell like flower gardens in comparison!

Hu

thanks hu for the book:thumbup:
I like your idea of separating the wheat from the chaff
one thing, I thought elk masters were made from water buffalo?
I've seen the big chunks of hide that tweeten and them use
of course that could be for different tips they make, not sure

so today I had a proper elk master put on, and it blew out again
not as much as the other one, but still hard to get it flush with the shaft
gonna try sand it down some and rock with it
strange stuff, those tips
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
thanks hu for the book:thumbup:
I like your idea of separating the wheat from the chaff
one thing, I thought elk masters were made from water buffalo?
I've seen the big chunks of hide that tweeten and them use
of course that could be for different tips they make, not sure

so today I had a proper elk master put on, and it blew out again
not as much as the other one, but still hard to get it flush with the shaft
gonna try sand it down some and rock with it
strange stuff, those tips
Get one of the really soft Ultraskins. A buddy uses them and loves them. Both the Pro and Super soft are similar to an Elk. The Ivory soft is really good too. Either one's a better tip than an Elk. Can't beat the price, 2.70/ea(10 for $27) if you're an AZ member.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Finer than water buffalo

thanks hu for the book:thumbup:
I like your idea of separating the wheat from the chaff
one thing, I thought elk masters were made from water buffalo?
I've seen the big chunks of hide that tweeten and them use
of course that could be for different tips they make, not sure

so today I had a proper elk master put on, and it blew out again
not as much as the other one, but still hard to get it flush with the shaft
gonna try sand it down some and rock with it
strange stuff, those tips



A little homework, a dealer says the Elkmaster tips are made from elk. The dealer is highly respected in the snooker world I believe so perhaps it is true. Tweeten makes the tips here in the USA and seems a bit coy about where the leather comes from.

A nice fine grain quality leather whatever it is. They do also produce water buffalo tips I believe so those big hides could indeed be for other tips. The hide on an animal varies a great deal in different places and it is at least possible that the Elkmaster tips are made from the finer thin areas of the water buffalo, under the belly and inside the legs are some areas that are generally finer grained and thinner than the hide on the top of the back for example. The hides could come from elk, sheep, goat, hogs, the list is almost endless. They could be using horse hide too and be a bit coy fearing backlash from horse lovers. I found horse hide to vary greatly in the same places depending on the breeding of the individual animal.

Years ago I tipped a lot of house cues for pool halls using water buffalo tips, I think Triangles. Buffalo was a very tough durable hide, very coarse grained fiber. However, I can't say that they didn't play well and hold up under abuse well. That coarse grain may help them hold chalk. I suspect in blind testing people today would be quite pleased with them until they found out the price. You can buy boxes of Triangles for the cost of some of these new tips last I knew.

Selected Elkmaster tips work well for my personal cues dudded or not. If I am breaking hard I usually grab a break cue off the wall and my normal playing style doesn't require much power. Some people completely destroy the integrity of the leather crushing Elkmaster tips as much as they can. These I would be leery of. If you want a hard tip, best and easiest to start with a hard tip.

Leather is a very complex subject. What I know isn't even the tip of the iceberg. I used to hang out in a saddle shop a little bit. Just admiring the craftsmanship of the leather worker. Skill and art, and it starts with selecting the right leather for the job.


Edit: Are you or the installer burnishing the sides of the tip? Different ways of doing it as it seems with everything. A drop of water and a dollar works fine. I try to use the newer money the better and I am a traditionalist about burnishing. A little spit, and then I burnish with a stiff hundred dollar bill. Kinda like sticking something with scent on it to a hound's nose, I want the tip to know what things are all about!

Hu
 
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