why tip expand upon application?

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
A little homework, a dealer says the Elkmaster tips are made from elk. The dealer is highly respected in the snooker world I believe so perhaps it is true. Tweeten makes the tips here in the USA and seems a bit coy about where the leather comes from.

A nice fine grain quality leather whatever it is. They do also produce water buffalo tips I believe so those big hides could indeed be for other tips. The hide on an animal varies a great deal in different places and it is at least possible that the Elkmaster tips are made from the finer thin areas of the water buffalo, under the belly and inside the legs are some areas that are generally finer grained and thinner than the hide on the top of the back for example. The hides could come from elk, sheep, goat, hogs, the list is almost endless. They could be using horse hide too and be a bit coy fearing backlash from horse lovers. I found horse hide to vary greatly in the same places depending on the breeding of the individual animal.

Years ago I tipped a lot of house cues for pool halls using water buffalo tips, I think Triangles. Buffalo was a very tough durable hide, very coarse grained fiber. However, I can't say that they didn't play well and hold up under abuse well. That coarse grain may help them hold chalk. I suspect in blind testing people today would be quite pleased with them until they found out the price. You can buy boxes of Triangles for the cost of some of these new tips last I knew.

Selected Elkmaster tips work well for my personal cues dudded or not. If I am breaking hard I usually grab a break cue off the wall and my normal playing style doesn't require much power. Some people completely destroy the integrity of the leather crushing Elkmaster tips as much as they can. These I would be leery of. If you want a hard tip, best and easiest to start with a hard tip.

Leather is a very complex subject. What I know isn't even the tip of the iceberg. I used to hang out in a saddle shop a little bit. Just admiring the craftsmanship of the leather worker. Skill and art, and it starts with selecting the right leather for the job.


Edit: Are you or the installer burnishing the sides of the tip? Different ways of doing it as it seems with everything. A drop of water and a dollar works fine. I try to use the newer money the better and I am a traditionalist about burnishing. A little spit, and then I burnish with a stiff hundred dollar bill. Kinda like sticking something with scent on it to a hound's nose, I want the tip to know what things are all about!

Hu
I doubt they're made from elk. Elk are a controlled animal as far as harvesting goes. I wouldn't think there would be enough hides available to make very many tips.
 
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ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
my thoughts too

I doubt they're made from elk. Elk are a controlled animal as far as harvesting goes. I wouldn't think there would be enough hides available to make very many tips.


That was my first thoughts too, about a shortage of hides. However elk are in large areas of europe also, I don't know where all. There are also licensed elk farms here in the US and you can buy elk meat on the Net here in the US last I knew. I would think the same places selling meat can sell hides. I don't know what areas of the hide are suitable for Elkmaster tips but I would think one hide would produce hundreds of tips. Also there is some naming confusion. Aren't what we call moose here called elk in europe? A much bigger animal but I have no idea of the qualities of the hide.

My guess is that Tweeten can get enough hides through legitimate channels, even if the hides are elk or moose. Admittedly though, I am just guessing. If most of the hide can be used one hide could make thousands of tips. If only small areas can be used as few as low hundreds may come from each hide.

Hu
 

garczar

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
That was my first thoughts too, about a shortage of hides. However elk are in large areas of europe also, I don't know where all. There are also licensed elk farms here in the US and you can buy elk meat on the Net here in the US last I knew. I would think the same places selling meat can sell hides. I don't know what areas of the hide are suitable for Elkmaster tips but I would think one hide would produce hundreds of tips. Also there is some naming confusion. Aren't what we call moose here called elk in europe? A much bigger animal but I have no idea of the qualities of the hide.

My guess is that Tweeten can get enough hides through legitimate channels, even if the hides are elk or moose. Admittedly though, I am just guessing. If most of the hide can be used one hide could make thousands of tips. If only small areas can be used as few as low hundreds may come from each hide.

Hu
LePro's and Triangles are oak-tanned. Oak tanning yields a harder,tougher leather. EM's are chrome-tanned. Chrome tanning gives a much softer, more pliable product. Chrome tanning also leaves leather a blue color, that's why EM's are blue not because of chalk in them. IIRC all the Tweeten tips use water buffalo hides. UD: i talked to Skip at Tweeten and he affirmed that they use WB hides.
 
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EddieBme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Never seen this happen hand shaping with a sharp tool. lathe shaping with a dull tool or the wrong tool angle, yes it is common.

I did an entire article on exacto knife blades about the time a magazine folded. Some blades start out a lot sharper than others, stay sharp longer too. Premium blades are worth the price. The other thing, if the blade is just laid on a flat surface as is common, the bevel of the blade creates a negative rake. Can't get a clean scraping cut like that and it dulls the blade rapidly.

Hu

Hi Hu. What brand, or which type of the exacto knife blades, (or any other tools) do you recommend specifically for changing and shaping tips?

Eddie
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
utility knife premium blades

Hi Hu. What brand, or which type of the exacto knife blades, (or any other tools) do you recommend specifically for changing and shaping tips?

Eddie


Eddie, I use utility knife blades. First thing, I want a quality handle that just holds the blade, it doesn't retract. The quality handles like this are usually six or eight dollars. There may still be slight play when you put a thin blade in it. If there is I snap a blade off flush with the handle to use as a shim. Safety glasses or goggles a must for this, wouldn't want a sliver of metal in an eye. Now on to answering your question, holding the blade is important though. I favor the handle I am talking about here, I will use just a blade before a retractable handle, hate those things!

I tested bi-metal blades and several versions of coated blades, the gold ones. I bought all of the different blades I could find at home depot, lowes, and ace when I researched the article. I found standard duty blades sharper than heavy duty. Premium blades significantly outperformed standard blades, both sharper and staying sharp longer. Bi-metal, gold edged, and solid gold coated blades all seemed equally sharp and fine for installing tips when I just did three tips with each end of the blade.

No doubt if I had tested them until they quit working I would have found a "best" blade but all of the premium blades worked great when I just did six tips with a blade. That was a practice I started with standard blades and still use with premium blades. Blades are too cheap to botch a job with a dull blade. I don't throw these blades away, I have a handful of utility knife handles in the shop. One marked for tips only, the rest scattered where I use them. My shop is in storage mostly in boxes and bins now and by some magic I never find what I am looking for in that storage unit! It is seventy miles away now too, so a bit awkward. The information where to find the blades is working from memory, pretty old memory at that!

I am pretty sure the bi-metal blades came from lowes and were kobalt brand, some of the gold ones came from home depot but they are pretty common everywhere. If you have an ace hardware locally they will order anything in their catalog and get it in less than a week usually. Most people never consider special orders from ace but I get a lot of hard to find stuff that way. It comes on their standard truck so free shipping.

I have never had a problem, never heard of one. However I trust the one piece blades a little more than the bi-metal ones. None of the blades were designed for our use and it would seem the bi-metal blade could delaminate. They are made in three layers, a hard center that will sharpen to a finer edge than two softer outer layers to protect the blade from breaking. As close as I place the support and with the quality of the blades this issue seems to be purely theory.

I use the utility knife blades for their relatively larger size and strength. I find exacto knife blades pricey too, partially because of where I buy specialty blades from. If I remember correctly the cost of utility knife blades was less than a dime a tip even using the premium blades back when I wrote the article. They didn't show any loss of sharpness yet and might last as long as a standard blade after being relegated to rougher work than tips.


To recap:

Heavy duty blades have blunter bevel than standard blades and they are thicker. Noticeably stronger than standard blades. They shine for heavy rough work. The dullest blades when new, and they get even duller fast.

Standard duty blades are sharper than heavy duty blades but can stand much less side force. These blades are OK for tips as long as you use the three tip rule.

Premium blades are noticeably sharper than standard duty blades and they stay sharp longer. When we need clean cuts they are the best choice. Best choice for using as a scraper too which is what we are doing shaping tips. I didn't test strength when a side force was applied to these blades. I would expect the gold blades to be the same toughness as the standard blades as I think they start life the same before extra sharpening and coating. The bi-metal are an unknown to me. The side plates are probably of a softer more flexible metal than the standard blades while the center is definitely more brittle. Net result??

Hu
 

EddieBme

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Eddie, I use utility knife blades. First thing, I want a quality handle that just holds the blade, it doesn't retract. The quality handles like this are usually six or eight dollars. There may still be slight play when you put a thin blade in it. If there is I snap a blade off flush with the handle to use as a shim. Safety glasses or goggles a must for this, wouldn't want a sliver of metal in an eye. Now on to answering your question, holding the blade is important though. I favor the handle I am talking about here, I will use just a blade before a retractable handle, hate those things!

I tested bi-metal blades and several versions of coated blades, the gold ones. I bought all of the different blades I could find at home depot, lowes, and ace when I researched the article. I found standard duty blades sharper than heavy duty. Premium blades significantly outperformed standard blades, both sharper and staying sharp longer. Bi-metal, gold edged, and solid gold coated blades all seemed equally sharp and fine for installing tips when I just did three tips with each end of the blade.

No doubt if I had tested them until they quit working I would have found a "best" blade but all of the premium blades worked great when I just did six tips with a blade. That was a practice I started with standard blades and still use with premium blades. Blades are too cheap to botch a job with a dull blade. I don't throw these blades away, I have a handful of utility knife handles in the shop. One marked for tips only, the rest scattered where I use them. My shop is in storage mostly in boxes and bins now and by some magic I never find what I am looking for in that storage unit! It is seventy miles away now too, so a bit awkward. The information where to find the blades is working from memory, pretty old memory at that!

I am pretty sure the bi-metal blades came from lowes and were kobalt brand, some of the gold ones came from home depot but they are pretty common everywhere. If you have an ace hardware locally they will order anything in their catalog and get it in less than a week usually. Most people never consider special orders from ace but I get a lot of hard to find stuff that way. It comes on their standard truck so free shipping.

I have never had a problem, never heard of one. However I trust the one piece blades a little more than the bi-metal ones. None of the blades were designed for our use and it would seem the bi-metal blade could delaminate. They are made in three layers, a hard center that will sharpen to a finer edge than two softer outer layers to protect the blade from breaking. As close as I place the support and with the quality of the blades this issue seems to be purely theory.

I use the utility knife blades for their relatively larger size and strength. I find exacto knife blades pricey too, partially because of where I buy specialty blades from. If I remember correctly the cost of utility knife blades was less than a dime a tip even using the premium blades back when I wrote the article. They didn't show any loss of sharpness yet and might last as long as a standard blade after being relegated to rougher work than tips.


To recap:

Heavy duty blades have blunter bevel than standard blades and they are thicker. Noticeably stronger than standard blades. They shine for heavy rough work. The dullest blades when new, and they get even duller fast.

Standard duty blades are sharper than heavy duty blades but can stand much less side force. These blades are OK for tips as long as you use the three tip rule.

Premium blades are noticeably sharper than standard duty blades and they stay sharp longer. When we need clean cuts they are the best choice. Best choice for using as a scraper too which is what we are doing shaping tips. I didn't test strength when a side force was applied to these blades. I would expect the gold blades to be the same toughness as the standard blades as I think they start life the same before extra sharpening and coating. The bi-metal are an unknown to me. The side plates are probably of a softer more flexible metal than the standard blades while the center is definitely more brittle. Net result??

Hu

Thanks Hu. I've tried to find something thin and sharp like a one sided razor, but the ones I've found are for the tip trimming tools, and pretty short? The reason I ask, I've done a quite a few tips, but a couple of times I nicked the ferrule.

Eddie
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why I like the handle on the blade.

Thanks Hu. I've tried to find something thin and sharp like a one sided razor, but the ones I've found are for the tip trimming tools, and pretty short? The reason I ask, I've done a quite a few tips, but a couple of times I nicked the ferrule.

Eddie



Eddie,

I doubt there is any honest mechanic that hasn't damaged a ferrule. By putting a cutting tool in your tool holder and running it very close to the tip as a tool rest anything you cut with is a lot easier to tame. Get that tool you are using for a rest within a quarter inch or less of the tip. You can custom make a curved rest to go in your tool holder to really snug up to the tip if you want to. If you don't have a good solid tool rest I would buy or make one.

With the tip close to the steady rest or chuck and the rest you have the blade on very close to the tip it becomes hard to mess up a ferrule. A good handle with zero movement of the cutting tool you are using finishes the package. Like most I have been guilty of just using a utility knife blade too. There isn't much load on it if you have the tool rest close to the tip. Still, good practice to use a handle. Most people using small blades without handles eventually do some fairly nasty damage to their hands.

A good set-up is three-fourths or more of the job. I get all of the flex out of a shaft before I start cutting.

Hu
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member

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Cadillac J

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

Kiridashi is the PERFECT tool for cutting tips...I just picked up a few.

I'm very familiar with Japanese knives in the kitchen and straight razors, I own so many different waterstones and diamond stones so I can re-sharpen at any time (can produce much sharper edges than even a typical 'razor blade').

A traditional Japanese knife is chisel ground; however, the backside is not flat...it is concave---the 'ura' is the only part that touches the stone to remove/refine the burr from honing the bevel side.

Picked up a cheap Kiridashi like above, as well as one with Hitachi shirogami/white #2 steel (extremely fine grained...can hold such a fine/low angle edge). Have another one coming in aogami/blue #2 steel that has a few more alloys to hold an edge a bit longer over the white paper steel.

I'd recommend you pick up a stone--maybe a cheap King 1000/6000 in your case.
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
Kiridashi is the PERFECT tool for cutting tips...I just picked up a few.

Picked up a cheap Kiridashi like above, as well as one with Hitachi shirogami/white #2 steel (extremely fine grained...can hold such a fine/low angle edge).
Have another one coming in aogami/blue #2 steel that has a few more alloys to hold an edge a bit longer over the white paper steel.

I'd recommend you pick up a stone--maybe a cheap King 1000/6000 in your case.

Great suggestions....
But it looks like those are large Chef’s Knives.

Where can we order a small knife blue #2 for trimming pool cue tips?
 
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Island Drive

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
got a one-piece tip, my man put it on the stick
tried to trim it to fit shaft profile without success
the tip expanded like one of those sponges you put in water
it just kept growing
has anybody ever experienced this?
why might this have happened?

ps it's ugly but doesn't play bad

Pics....most tips mushroom and need to be dressed.

Grab the tip with your fingers, are you able to pull the leather tip with, or with out the leather giving'? bad tips are spongy and will give'. Your tip could be too dried out.
 

Cadillac J

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
But it looks like those are large Chef’s Knives.

Where can we order a small knife blue #2 for trimming pool cue tips?

Not sure where you are seeing large chef knives...Kiridashi is a small utility style knife. There are many on Amazon...my $20 in SK-5 steel one works great that I didn't really need the other two nicer ones w/ Hitachi steel. Any of them will do, but choose a carbon over stainless option (unless you find some awesome one in AEB-L / 13c26...which are very fine-grained stainless steels).

If you are left handed, you will be much more limited in your options, as they don't make as many for lefties.

Trying to get a picture attached of my setup...about to smash my laptop because it won't work and keeps failing. :mad:
 

Cadillac J

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Here is my setup with all my blades and tools:

https://imgur.com/KP7Y35i


First couple tries on re-tipping weren't bad, but my biggest issue was accidentally cutting into the tip on an angle (a.k.a. tip side not flush with ferrule)...but a little practice and it is so much more rewarding and convenient than shipping shafts, or driving ~3 hours to Seyberts. Here are my latest results:

https://imgur.com/b9ti6QM

https://imgur.com/KehlE9b
 

mchnhed

I Came, I Shot, I Choked
Silver Member
I figure this would work and not damage the ferrule or the shaft!
 

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