DrawShotKing
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To a customer for their Shaft Ferrules, and Joint of a Playing Cue?
Why would you as a Cuemaker recommend Real Ivory
- Thread starter DrawShotKing
- Start date
RocketQ said:
GOD I can't stand that smell!!!!!!!
Paul
I've long liked how ivory ferrules hit and stay clean. I like flat-face ivory joint for hit/feel, although just flat-face is about the same. They both add value to cue as well. My second choice in a ferrule is linen melamine.
Martin
Martin
DrawShotKing said:
jazznpool said:
I love to use Ivory in my cues as inlays as little else has the look and ease of working properties (doesn't melt, easy to cut, easy to sand and of coarse adds value). I don't, however, like to use it as ferrules or butt caps. I always try to talk people out of it for those purposes although I lose money doing so as there is a great mark-up. Ivory ferrules, although not necessarily better, but having it's own hit that many people like, are, in my opinion, to fragile, to be used as ferrule material. Like Scotch whiskey, this is an acquired taste so why get hooked on something so expensive when there are much better alternatives out there. This always causes arguments as some will say they have never had one crack in a 100 years but I know I replace cracked Ivory ferrules at a rate of about a 100 to 1 over linen or melamine ones. Same with butt caps. They are to close to the floor so the chance of them being banged against an object and being chipped are to great.
Dick
Gregivory
After 40 years of playing, I have come to the conclusion that I dislike the way it plays. For my 9-ball game, I play as close to center ball as possible. I force the ball around more with center ball and no spin. Better control of speed and cue ball placement.
When I do get outside of center, ivory is much more unpredictable. A little more squirt or deflection on power stroke shots.
It does not effect my one pocket game as much because of softer shooting for more of the game than 9 ball. One pocket requires more" Touch" But put the power to the ball with ivory and I seem to get more squirt than some other materials.
So from a cuemaker stand point, more money. From a player stand point, give me the cheap stuff. IMHO.
I guess that will open a can of worms.
Joints are a different story. Nice softer hit and feel.
After 40 years of playing, I have come to the conclusion that I dislike the way it plays. For my 9-ball game, I play as close to center ball as possible. I force the ball around more with center ball and no spin. Better control of speed and cue ball placement.
When I do get outside of center, ivory is much more unpredictable. A little more squirt or deflection on power stroke shots.
It does not effect my one pocket game as much because of softer shooting for more of the game than 9 ball. One pocket requires more" Touch" But put the power to the ball with ivory and I seem to get more squirt than some other materials.
So from a cuemaker stand point, more money. From a player stand point, give me the cheap stuff. IMHO.
I guess that will open a can of worms.
Joints are a different story. Nice softer hit and feel.
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Jim,
My hat's off to you Sir, tap, tap, tap.
We have come to a point in time where ivory has lost it's place in the billiards industry and it's time to move forward. Ivory has proven itself to be inferior to many of the materials that are available today and there is no longer any reason to continue to use it. Unless of course you happen to be a member of the select group of people that feel it's more important to impress their friends with how much ivory they have in their cues, possibly to make-up for the short-comings of their game. Look, the only reason cuemakers today continue to use ivory is to jack up the price of their cues. There is no performance enhancement to ivory whatsoever. It's actually detrimental to performance. As I see it, this controversy puts players in one of two camps. Those that can impress with their game & those that try to impress with how pretty their cue is while they're doggin the cheese. Respectfully & Sincerely, KJ
My hat's off to you Sir, tap, tap, tap.
We have come to a point in time where ivory has lost it's place in the billiards industry and it's time to move forward. Ivory has proven itself to be inferior to many of the materials that are available today and there is no longer any reason to continue to use it. Unless of course you happen to be a member of the select group of people that feel it's more important to impress their friends with how much ivory they have in their cues, possibly to make-up for the short-comings of their game. Look, the only reason cuemakers today continue to use ivory is to jack up the price of their cues. There is no performance enhancement to ivory whatsoever. It's actually detrimental to performance. As I see it, this controversy puts players in one of two camps. Those that can impress with their game & those that try to impress with how pretty their cue is while they're doggin the cheese. Respectfully & Sincerely, KJ
1st of all forgive the typing, i had a fall and broke the ball in my shoulder and tore my rotator cuff. so i'm down to 1 finger and can't reach the shift button, easily.
back to this subject. all of this talk about ivory, not adding anything to the q except money. i suppose it might be said that a maple q with no wrap , inlays or points, is the q we should all be playing with. after all, none of these add to the pure playing abillity of a q. after all why pay for a built in radio in a car, when you can hear music from a $5 potable on the seat next to you. BECAUSE WE CAN. if you can afford it and you want it, by all means have it. i personally have had a love affair with ivory, since i was a little boy. my grandfather had a pair of tusks on either side of his fireplace. it spawned an interest in studiing elephants, even in grade school. inlayed stones, exotic woods, ivory all add to what is called. by some, decoration. i agree. but i have owned several very nice cars and trucks and have as much "decoration" on them as i can afford. i have customers who walk in with a plain jane sort of q in mind and walk out ordering something quit decorated. BECAUSE THEY CAN AND THEY WANT IT...JER
back to this subject. all of this talk about ivory, not adding anything to the q except money. i suppose it might be said that a maple q with no wrap , inlays or points, is the q we should all be playing with. after all, none of these add to the pure playing abillity of a q. after all why pay for a built in radio in a car, when you can hear music from a $5 potable on the seat next to you. BECAUSE WE CAN. if you can afford it and you want it, by all means have it. i personally have had a love affair with ivory, since i was a little boy. my grandfather had a pair of tusks on either side of his fireplace. it spawned an interest in studiing elephants, even in grade school. inlayed stones, exotic woods, ivory all add to what is called. by some, decoration. i agree. but i have owned several very nice cars and trucks and have as much "decoration" on them as i can afford. i have customers who walk in with a plain jane sort of q in mind and walk out ordering something quit decorated. BECAUSE THEY CAN AND THEY WANT IT...JER
I am curious what inlay material Elephant Ivory has "proven itself to be inferior to?" I actually tend to agree with you on the performance statement. I do not like the way Ivory ferrules play myself. And although I like Ivory joints better than stainless joints, I like plain flat faced phenolic better than either one. The closest thing to Elephant Ivory I have found for inlays is properly bleached Camel Bone. But Elephant Ivory is in no way inferior to it and is in most ways a little better, except for the fact is cost a few times as much. So to answer the original question, No, I do not recommend it to the customer for ferrules or joints. But for inlays that is different matter. It is my favorite material.KJ Cues said:
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Hi Chris,
The original question spoke nothing of inlays and as such I directed my response to the performance aspect of the material. That's not to say that I'm recommending it's use for inlays but merely to answer the question that was asked. We all live & die by the choices we make so on a personal level it's a matter of ethics. I don't want to see one more elephant slaughtered for it's ivory. The honorable Dennis Dieckman has made the statement that the use of ivory brings bad karma. I tend to agree with him. We will all pay for our mis-givings in the end, I'd like to think that man-kind is capable of correcting itself. KJ
The original question spoke nothing of inlays and as such I directed my response to the performance aspect of the material. That's not to say that I'm recommending it's use for inlays but merely to answer the question that was asked. We all live & die by the choices we make so on a personal level it's a matter of ethics. I don't want to see one more elephant slaughtered for it's ivory. The honorable Dennis Dieckman has made the statement that the use of ivory brings bad karma. I tend to agree with him. We will all pay for our mis-givings in the end, I'd like to think that man-kind is capable of correcting itself. KJ
Ivory has a certain feel that has yet been duplicated. Some players love the feel & love the sound ivory ferrules make. A builder having a little bit of the stuff around for these guys is not a bad idea. It could make or break the sale. If you don't offer ivory, they'll go elsewhere.
Personally, i'm not a fan of ivory. I do enjoy the way it works, cuts, sands. It's like a very hard & beautiful wood. It's very cool stuff. I don't care much for it personally, but lots of folks do. It's like any other material in cues, it has it's place. You would'nt substitute paduak for bright orange cocobolo, would you? Of course not. It's cheap, much less prestige & performs nothing like cocobolo. So why sub your ivory? Each material has it's place and ivory is not going anywhere. As long as a percentage of players want it, it's a good idea for a builder to have it. It's good business sense. Lock yourself into a box & you stop growing.
One thing I like to do is get to know my competition, in all aspects of life. I find the best of the field & I study them. I find out what they do that makes them what they are. I ignore everything sub-par to that. This puts my mind at the level needed to succeed in that particular field, puts my mindset at the highest levels. With cuemaking, i'll not go into specifics, but I will say that I know of none of the most popular & successful builders that would not use ivory. They all seem to corner themselves into a specific design style, but their material choices are virtually limitless, and most generally only the highest of grade. That's just some personal thoughts & observations, nothing gospel.
Personally, i'm not a fan of ivory. I do enjoy the way it works, cuts, sands. It's like a very hard & beautiful wood. It's very cool stuff. I don't care much for it personally, but lots of folks do. It's like any other material in cues, it has it's place. You would'nt substitute paduak for bright orange cocobolo, would you? Of course not. It's cheap, much less prestige & performs nothing like cocobolo. So why sub your ivory? Each material has it's place and ivory is not going anywhere. As long as a percentage of players want it, it's a good idea for a builder to have it. It's good business sense. Lock yourself into a box & you stop growing.
One thing I like to do is get to know my competition, in all aspects of life. I find the best of the field & I study them. I find out what they do that makes them what they are. I ignore everything sub-par to that. This puts my mind at the level needed to succeed in that particular field, puts my mindset at the highest levels. With cuemaking, i'll not go into specifics, but I will say that I know of none of the most popular & successful builders that would not use ivory. They all seem to corner themselves into a specific design style, but their material choices are virtually limitless, and most generally only the highest of grade. That's just some personal thoughts & observations, nothing gospel.
i 1st had an ivory ferruled q in 1956. i DO recommend this material, like all of the other materials, that are favorites of mine. i love the hit and feel of ivory ferrules. i love the hit of Bacote wood, in a q and also recommend that. some woods are becoming more scarce than legal ivory, but nobody is shying away from using them. use it if you want it, don't use it if you don't like it. it' as simple as that. a lot of qmakers shy away from this discusion, but i don't mind having an intelligent conversation about it...JER
Why Ivory
IMO nothing sounds like an Ivory joint. Same with the ferrules. As for saving the elephants well it's a personal decision and I can't argue with someones ethics. Personally I want to ban phenolic, heck it's petroleum based and all we are doing is increasing our dependence on foreign oil sources.
IMO nothing sounds like an Ivory joint. Same with the ferrules. As for saving the elephants well it's a personal decision and I can't argue with someones ethics. Personally I want to ban phenolic, heck it's petroleum based and all we are doing is increasing our dependence on foreign oil sources.