Will Ivory ever become undesirable for cues?

[Thunder Thighs]

So Ivory is a staple in higher end cues. What's your take on this? I've had cues with ivory in the past, but not anymore as I've sold them already.

Is ivory a must-have for newly built expensive cues? Personally, I'd be just as satisfied with Elforyn if I had a new cue made.

 

[Pin]

I guess it's about personal perspective. How do you feel about elephants?

 

[iusedtoberich]

I think it will become undesirable due to the difficulty in shipping it. That difficulty will only increase over time, imo. This limits the market size tremendously of ivory laden cues, and thus brings the price down.

 

[hang-the-9]

I personally don't like the hit of ivory ferrules or joints, and using it in just decoration is a bit of a waste, like making a purse out of gold just to have it be expensive.

The cue in my avatar had both an ivory ferrule and joint, I only kept it for a few months then traded it for something else.

 

[David in FL]

I think it will become undesirable due to the difficulty in shipping it. That difficulty will only increase over time, imo. This limits the market size tremendously of ivory laden cues, and thus brings the price down.

Sorry, but I respectfully disagree.

The market isn’t limited by shipping issues. The availability of supply to any given market is limited. Basic supply and demand economics indicates that as supply to a given market decreases, prices tend to rise in response.

Now, if over time the market actually does decrease, i.e. people no longer desire ivory in their cues, then there may well be a supply that exceeds the market demand and yep, prices would tend to come down. I don’t think that’s going to happen though. People, collectors especially, tend to like things that are more rare, or at least a bit less common. Ivory is beginning to fall into that category.

 

[mikemosconi]

I think that one of the original ideas behind using ivory may have been to use as much natural material as possible in a cue- I think that has changed over the years for various reasons. Some of the ideas behind using ivory in cues also had to do with perceived or actual playability characteristics regarding ivory ferrules and joint materials - folks will develop their own thoughts on this one based on their experience with ivory in cues. A third reason was probably aesthetics - ivory was traditionally also used in some knife and gun handles as well as in jewelry and music instruments.

Much of this has all changed now- ecological reasons and animal preservation - to the point that ivory usage/transportation/possession presents possible severe legal ramifications - so it now becomes a usage factor that brings with it risks in several ways.

All that being said, I love my cues with ivory and if anyone out there feels REAL guilty owning ivory cues- I'll make you a REAL guilty offer on them

 

[terpdad]

I think it already is. It may have been a staple in older high-end cues, but that isn't the case anymore.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I wouldn't have ivory in any cue of mine, even if it didn't come from elephants. Don't like the look, weight, strength or feel.

pj
chgo

 

[JusticeNJ]

I've had a few cuemakers decline to use ivory, which is the right answer if you are being prudent. I reached out to a few to make a new shaft for an older cue with unplayed shafts I wanted to preserve. I wanted a reproduction so I asked for ivory ferrules. I wound up just going for an elforyn ferrule. LD design and materials are at the top of the list for a large swath of cue buyers, and that doesn't leave much room for ivory. I think there will always be a small market for new cues with ivory, and of course a market for the re-sale of existing cues laden with ivory, but newer cues with ivory will become fewer and fewer. If I was a cuemaker, I personally wouldn't risk the headache. If I'm holding a big collection of cues with ivory in it, I dunno how I'd like the future.

Last couple of cues I ordered had LBM ferrules. If you like heavy ferrules that go "PING", you can get that result with different materials. Most recent cue I ordered I asked for micarta.

 

[pwd72s]

None of my cues have Ivory. These days, I figure that's a good thing...

 

[Icon of Sin]

I guess it's about personal perspective. How do you feel about elephants?

That doesn't really answer the ivory question either though. Personally, I think elephants are cool. I don't want them poached, killed, whatever and I believe the poachers should have their nuts cut off and left for dead...

BUT...

I love ivory in cues. If ivory was harvested at the natural death of an elephant it wouldnt be an issue, same with all ivory currently being used being pre-ban. If illegally seized ivory wasn't destroyed but instead, flooded the market at a dirt cheap price, that would deter poaching as you would lower the value of it over time. Lot's of times it tons and tons of ivory that is seized and then just destroyed.

Seize illegal ivory.
Prosecute poachers to the fullest extent.
Flood the ivory market with the seized ivory dirt cheap.
The let the governments of whatever 3rd world country that seized and sold the ivory to put the money towards something decent like schools or whatever the country needs.

That shit makes too much sense. Destroying it tons at a time is only going to continue to drive up it's value and rarity.

 

[Pin]

BUT...

I love your thinking. The only possible downside, I guess is that a supply of ivory seen as 'legitimate' might break the social taboo against ivory product.

I wonder how much land you'd need for a natural-death ivory farming sanctuary...

 

[Icon of Sin]

I love your thinking. The only possible downside, I guess is that a supply of ivory seen as 'legitimate' might break the social taboo against ivory product.

Is that even a downside? If it's legal to own and harvested in a way that doesn't harm the animal and harvested in a way that further hurts and prosecutes poachers there would be no need anymore to have the social taboo...

I wonder how much land you'd need for a natural-death ivory farming sanctuary...

Would it even require that?

It could be acquired from Zoo's all over the planet. It could be acquired from elephant's that died naturally in the wild. Zoos even here in the US are constantly hurting for money. I'm sure a tusk having elephant in captivity dying isn't really a common occurrence for a zoo, but hell if it does sell the ivory cheap and put it towards the zoo.

The biggest thing is selling it dirt cheap. Personally, I like the look and feel of ivory. Sure it's rarity is appealing but not my main reason for wanting it in a cue.

You kill the price of it make it easily available, then you will kill the desires for it that require the sinister methods of harvesting.

Don't get me wrong, I'm just a nobody when it comes to cues and the pool world and the world in general, but there has got to be something better then just destroying tons of it at a time only to make it more rare and valuable.

 

[Pin]

Is that even a downside? If it's legal to own and harvested in a way that doesn't harm the animal and harvested in a way that further hurts and prosecutes poachers there would be no need anymore to have the social taboo...

My thinking was if you lose the taboo, demand goes up, and the economics might swing back to favor the poachers.

I guess among wildlife reserve staff and even zoo employees, sometimes you're going to get people willing to try to 'legitimize' illegal ivory.

But it could be a big improvement, even as an imperfect system.

 

[Icon of Sin]

My thinking was if you lose the taboo, demand goes up, and the economics might swing back to favor the poachers.

That's not what happened in states where marijuana has been legalized.

 

[Z-Nole]

I will never order a cue, or anything, with ivory in it again. That being said I don't want to play with anything but my cue with ivory ferrule and joint. Just used to it now.

 

[ideologist]

I think that one of the original ideas behind using ivory may have been to use as much natural material as possible in a cue- I think that has changed over the years for various reasons. Some of the ideas behind using ivory in cues also had to do with perceived or actual playability characteristics regarding ivory ferrules and joint materials - folks will develop their own thoughts on this one based on their experience with ivory in cues. A third reason was probably aesthetics - ivory was traditionally also used in some knife and gun handles as well as in jewelry and music instruments.

Much of this has all changed now- ecological reasons and animal preservation - to the point that ivory usage/transportation/possession presents possible severe legal ramifications - so it now becomes a usage factor that brings with it risks in several ways.

All that being said, I love my cues with ivory and if anyone out there feels REAL guilty owning ivory cues- I'll make you a REAL guilty offer on them

The original use for ivory was an abundance of it and difficulty machining other materials.

Now we have so many options, and so many improvements to ivory, that it is just obnoxious at this point.

 

[jimmyco]

Poaching and natural death are not the only ways to harvest ivory.

Like it or not, legal trophy hunts and government sanctioned culling happen.

Ivory could be regulated and the price controlled. It would never eliminate poaching, but could make it less lucrative.

 

[pt109]

I’ve owned at least 30 top of the line cues over the years... long before the ivory ban... I had the ivory removed on every one.
I don’t like the hit of ivory and it’s also not tough enough. It’s vulnerable to temperature and humidity. The modern pool balls are also far superior to ivory..a warm ivory cue ball reacted a lot different than a cooler one.

To me, ivory and brass ferrules are from the Stone Age for those who prefer ‘tradition’ over excellence.

 

[middleofnowhere]

So Ivory is a staple in higher end cues. What's your take on this? I've had cues with ivory in the past, but not anymore as I've sold them already.

Is ivory a must-have for newly built expensive cues? Personally, I'd be just as satisfied with Elforyn if I had a new cue made.

Who said its desirable? It's a moot point.