Will someone w/break speed app do a test???

Maniac

Maniac

2manyQ's
Silver Member
I have heard this argument more than a few times: Breaking from the headstring rather than a half-diamond further back gives you more cueball speed/power because the cueball is closer to the rack and has less time to lose velocity.

I have always heard that this is why the pros always break from right on the headstring. I myself have always preferred to use a rail-bridge and break from the short rail 1/2 diamond back from the headstring (8-ball rack). It seems that I can generate more power by not impeding (by friction) my forward stroke through a closed bridge. IMO, the cue slides much easier on the felt of the rail moreso than through meaty fingers. I've experimented with both methods MANY times and it always SEEMS to me I am getting more power from the rail bridge break.

Can someone with a phone app for break speed do an experiment for me? Set 10 break shots up from both the headstring using a closed bridge and from the same line-of-aim but a half-diamond back (utilizing the aforementioned rail bridge) and break the 10 racks apiece and give data on the average break speeds?

If the rail bridge break turns out to be more powerful, why wouldn't more pros use this method whenever the situation calls for more power? I can't see where the 1/2 diamond would make any measurable difference in accuracy. I also can't see where this short of a distance could create a noticable loss of velocity. This may have already been studied and if so, if anyone could provide a link it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.

Maniac
 
This sounds like an interesting experiment. A fellow AZer here whom I often play with "EZMoney" just got the ap. We were using it the last couple days and it's very cool. From what I understand, the speed is measured as a function of noise.

It "hears" the strke of the cue on the cue ball and measures the time until the CB nails the head ball. So, the ap user tells the ap where the cue ball has been placed to break from. Obviously, the further from the head spot, the longer the CB takes to get to the head ball and this must be accounted for.

Anyway, if given the opportunity, I'll ask EZMoney if he'd like to try this experiement and we can post up what we find.


KK9 <-- ap said hit 26.09 mph on a controlled squat while gambling. :grin-square:
 
The creator of the app is a poster here, maybe he has done some experimenting with it.
 
Maniac said:
I have heard this argument more than a few times: Breaking from the headstring rather than a half-diamond further back gives you more cueball speed/power because the cueball is closer to the rack and has less time to lose velocity.

I have always heard that this is why the pros always break from right on the headstring. I myself have always preferred to use a rail-bridge and break from the short rail 1/2 diamond back from the headstring (8-ball rack). It seems that I can generate more power by not impeding (by friction) my forward stroke through a closed bridge. IMO, the cue slides much easier on the felt of the rail moreso than through meaty fingers. I've experimented with both methods MANY times and it always SEEMS to me I am getting more power from the rail bridge break.

Can someone with a phone app for break speed do an experiment for me? Set 10 break shots up from both the headstring using a closed bridge and from the same line-of-aim but a half-diamond back (utilizing the aforementioned rail bridge) and break the 10 racks apiece and give data on the average break speeds?

If the rail bridge break turns out to be more powerful, why wouldn't more pros use this method whenever the situation calls for more power? I can't see where the 1/2 diamond would make any measurable difference in accuracy. I also can't see where this short of a distance could create a noticable loss of velocity. This may have already been studied and if so, if anyone could provide a link it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.

Maniac
Click to expand...

If you have a smart phone you can download the app for a one time fee of $4.99
http://www.mybreakspeed.com/
 
The greater the distance from the cue ball to the rack the greater potential for a faster break speed. Look at it this way. Can you reach a higher top speed in your car in 10 feet or 100 feet? Pros may not always place the cue ball as far away because they have such great control and precision. It's not always about break speed but how the balls spread more so.
 
SCREW how fast the ball is "really" moving .
What matters is how the balls break FOR YOU , and how comfortable you are with the stroke/position .
Break 50 times each way , and record your results .
This is the REAL WORLD way of finding out what works !! :cool:
 
djpstacked03 said:
The greater the distance from the cue ball to the rack the greater potential for a faster break speed. Look at it this way. Can you reach a higher top speed in your car in 10 feet or 100 feet? Pros may not always place the cue ball as far away because they have such great control and precision. It's not always about break speed but how the balls spread more so.
Click to expand...

So how far does it take for an accelerating cue ball to reach top speed? Your logic would infer we could attain a higher speed on a 12 footer than a 9 or 8.

I'm not sure I'm convinced of this. Interesting. Hopefully someone can illuminate us here with scientific fact.
 
djpstacked03 said:
The greater the distance from the cue ball to the rack the greater potential for a faster break speed. Look at it this way. Can you reach a higher top speed in your car in 10 feet or 100 feet? Pros may not always place the cue ball as far away because they have such great control and precision. It's not always about break speed but how the balls spread more so.
Click to expand...

The cue ball doesn't gain speed with greater distance. In fact, it loses speed due to friction. There is no acceleration as there could be in your comparison to driving a car 100 feet.

Correction: There is the initial acceleration from the impact of the cue stick, but the cue ball does not continue to accelerate after impact.
 
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djpstacked03 said:
The greater the distance from the cue ball to the rack the greater potential for a faster break speed. Look at it this way. Can you reach a higher top speed in your car in 10 feet or 100 feet? Pros may not always place the cue ball as far away because they have such great control and precision. It's not always about break speed but how the balls spread more so.
Click to expand...

You've got your analogies wrong. A car carries its power source with it, so the longer it goes the more time its engine has to apply its power. A cue balls power source is the cue stick and the breaker wielding it, so the cue ball starts to lose speed the instant after it is struck by the cue stick.
 
i have that app, check back in a week for an update, i got two league nights with different teams i'll do each player on my team. we are the team that is there an hour early playing, i know there are people that break from the aforementioned spots.
 
I break from the short rail 3/4 diamond rt from center, 1 diamond up from the end rail, 9 ft table. (I have a bad back fusion coming Feb. 10) and am only using my arm to break, not throwing my back into it.
I got 18.84 average from there. moved up to the head string on the same line and got 18.79 average, then went to the right side rail head string and got 18.40 average.
interesting though when I hit to low ( cue ball had draw) was my slowest times at 16.89 and 16.99.
I was using a break rack and did 9 of each shot.
I think you should use what feels right for you. Your confidence is what counts.
Maniac said:
I have heard this argument more than a few times: Breaking from the headstring rather than a half-diamond further back gives you more cueball speed/power because the cueball is closer to the rack and has less time to lose velocity.

I have always heard that this is why the pros always break from right on the headstring. I myself have always preferred to use a rail-bridge and break from the short rail 1/2 diamond back from the headstring (8-ball rack). It seems that I can generate more power by not impeding (by friction) my forward stroke through a closed bridge. IMO, the cue slides much easier on the felt of the rail moreso than through meaty fingers. I've experimented with both methods MANY times and it always SEEMS to me I am getting more power from the rail bridge break.

Can someone with a phone app for break speed do an experiment for me? Set 10 break shots up from both the headstring using a closed bridge and from the same line-of-aim but a half-diamond back (utilizing the aforementioned rail bridge) and break the 10 racks apiece and give data on the average break speeds?

If the rail bridge break turns out to be more powerful, why wouldn't more pros use this method whenever the situation calls for more power? I can't see where the 1/2 diamond would make any measurable difference in accuracy. I also can't see where this short of a distance could create a noticable loss of velocity. This may have already been studied and if so, if anyone could provide a link it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.

Maniac
Click to expand...
 
pool101 said:
I think you should use what feels right for you. Your confidence is what counts.
Click to expand...

I noted an actual preference in my OP. I bridge off of the short rail and put the cue ball at 1/2 diamond back from the headstring. Where I place the ball from left to right can vary depending on success/failure on any given night. It is usually somewhere between the middle diamond and the next one to the left.

I am still curious as to why you almost never see a pro break from the back rail!!!

Maniac
 
Would top spin not count as a power source?
As I posted my test the slowest speed was with draw, which could be from the added friction of the reverse spin.
If the draw slows the ball could top add acceleration?
Just asking, not saying that is the case.
sponge bob said:
You've got your analogies wrong. A car carries its power source with it, so the longer it goes the more time its engine has to apply its power. A cue balls power source is the cue stick and the breaker wielding it, so the cue ball starts to lose speed the instant after it is struck by the cue stick.
Click to expand...
 
While I think everyone gets too hung up on speed and how hard a person breaks, I did test my break both ways using the Breakspeed iPhone app.
First I broke off the headrail 25 times 1 diamond left of center and 1/2 diamond in from the head rail. After 25 breaks I recorded and avg speed of 23.018 mph. I also recorded making a ball 18 out of 25 breaks.
Then I broke 25 times with the cue ball one diamond left of center from the headstring. After 25 breaks I recorded and avg speed of 22.912 mph and pocketed a ball 23 out of the 25 breaks.

I have found over time, that the ideal speed for me to break in 9 ball is about 17-18 mph as I pocket the wing ball on the break and the 1 ball is near the opposite corner pocket at the head of the table which most times insures me of a shot after the break. After all, that is what winning pool is all about, not who can shatter the rack the hardest.
 
I use the app and dont find much variance between the 9 footers and the 7 footers (which has much more length between the cueball and headball) My observation from looking at the break marks left on the table is that the cueball is in the air for more than half way to the rack then hops into the head ball. If there is a difference it would be minuscule.
 
From my experience, my friend who uses the rail bridge break usually generates 2-3 more mph than I do with the closed bridge, on the head string break. But obviously that's from 2 different players. I'll test it out later tonight or tomorrow and report back.
 
Maniac said:
I have heard this argument more than a few times: Breaking from the headstring rather than a half-diamond further back gives you more cueball speed/power because the cueball is closer to the rack and has less time to lose velocity.

I have always heard that this is why the pros always break from right on the headstring. I myself have always preferred to use a rail-bridge and break from the short rail 1/2 diamond back from the headstring (8-ball rack). It seems that I can generate more power by not impeding (by friction) my forward stroke through a closed bridge. IMO, the cue slides much easier on the felt of the rail moreso than through meaty fingers. I've experimented with both methods MANY times and it always SEEMS to me I am getting more power from the rail bridge break.

Can someone with a phone app for break speed do an experiment for me? Set 10 break shots up from both the headstring using a closed bridge and from the same line-of-aim but a half-diamond back (utilizing the aforementioned rail bridge) and break the 10 racks apiece and give data on the average break speeds?

If the rail bridge break turns out to be more powerful, why wouldn't more pros use this method whenever the situation calls for more power? I can't see where the 1/2 diamond would make any measurable difference in accuracy. I also can't see where this short of a distance could create a noticable loss of velocity. This may have already been studied and if so, if anyone could provide a link it would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for any help.

Maniac
Click to expand...


I understand your point and your question but we are talking about a simple equation here that you can work out using math. You have to look at speed verse distance, and when examining this as part speed you must figure in the acceleration rate that is based upon the technique used by the individual and the persons individual ability using that or any technique.

Now when thinking of things in this manner you have to understand that using the shortest distance between two points, and by using the above factors for all intents and purposes. The closer the distance between two points the faster the cue ball will accelerate to it's target.

There is another factor that makes this true that was not mentioned above and that is the effects of gravity. From the time the cue follow through stroke is started until the cue ball strikes the intended target and until all movement stops gravity will continue to slow the movement involved.

So in the end the closer to the rack the better for breaking.

JIMO
 
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Bigdogbret said:
I have found over time, that the ideal speed for me to break in 9 ball is about 17-18 mph as I pocket the wing ball on the break and the 1 ball is near the opposite corner pocket at the head of the table which most times insures me of a shot after the break. After all, that is what winning pool is all about, not who can shatter the rack the hardest.
Click to expand...

In my OP I noted that I was referring to an 8-ball rack. I do not smash the rack when breaking for 9-ball as I believe that control is of the utmost importance. In 8-ball you can get more agressive on the break as you have an option of what ball to shoot at next and you are blasting into 15 balls instead of 9.

Maniac
 
manwon said:
I understand your point and your question but we are talking about a simple equation here that you can work out using math. You have to look at speed verse distance, and when examining this as part speed you must figure in the acceleration rate that is based upon the technique used by the individual and the persons individual ability using that or any technique.

Now when thinking of things in this manner you have to understand that using the shortest distance between two points, and by using the above factors for all intents and purposes. The closer the distance between two points the faster the cue ball will accelerate to it's target.

There is another factor that makes this true that was not mentioned above and that is the effects of gravity. From the time the cue follow through stroke is started until the cue ball strikes the intended target and all movement stops gravity will continue to slow the movement involved.

So in the end the closer to the rack the better for breaking.

JIMO
Click to expand...

But....I've already been shown two examples here already showing that the rail break generates more speed. Hmmmmm.......I guess it's all in whoever does the breaking.

Maniac
 
Biomechanics and psychology.

It's easy in these kinds of discussions to think only of the physics, forgetting the human factor. Some folks may break better from the rail because it gives what they subconsciously perceive to be a more stable bridge, which in turn lets them turn their stroke loose. Breaking from the rail may favor the way some people generate their break stoke. On the other side of the coin, some may subconsciously feel they are more accurate because the cue ball is closer to the target, and therefore more confident in stroking harder.

These kinds of things may not be something people are consciously aware of, even though they are doing them.

Pool ain't simple.
 
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