Williams... UPA... Rankings... What the?!?!

[manlyshot]

Manlyshot, It is a constant theme from me! You complain about the UPA in General or Charlie Williams specifically. If they fix one thing, you move and complain about another. Your constant theme appears to be complaining about the UPA.

Cardiac Kid, maybe you ARE a pool player who has no aspirations to attend a BCA or a WPC, but there may be other aspiring pool players who feel differently than you. The current UPA ranking system is unfair, period.

If they are so bad, why are all the best players members? Why did Corey, Frankie and the rest of your "wronged" group join and sign? I joined. Why don't you? I'm certainly no threat to win a UPA event. I guess you aren't either. I don't even fulfill the dictionary description of "professional". I have ideas. So do you. Why waste your energy complaining when they, according to you, obviously need help. I'm sure Robert Lipson and the BOD would be thrilled to have another set of helping hands. And your voice.

I'm sure Robert Lipson, Frank Alvarez, and Charlie Williams hear my voice just fine right here on this forum, Cardiac Kid, which is why I post. It is my hope that the UPA takes notice and attempts to correct some of the problems that currently exist. After all, they got Cuetone as a mouthpiece.

Relating to the "wronged" group, you are only half correct in your statement, Cardiac Kid. You are correct that Corey is on a new path these days which enabled him to sign a UPA legally binding contract without any adverse effects. I have not spoken to Frankie Hernandez, but it is a good thing that he worked out his differences with the UPA and joined the organization.

If I had an extra "set of helping hands," Cardiac Kid, I would volunteer to assist the UPA, like the other pro bono's and volunteers have done in the past. It truly is not about the money, but it is about what is fair and equitable. I am not about to volunteer my time and devote my energies to an organization that is fraught with inequities, especially an organization that has the tone of Cuetone's. It is like watching the Titanic sink.

 

[TheOne]

This is all very sad, to me it is clear that there are obviosly a couple of fundamental problems with this tour:

1) They don't publish there ranking points system

2) Some of the points earning tournaments are invite only!

Again, I am neutral in this debate and have no hidden agenda other than being interested in joining this tour.

I asked about this previously and was advised to send the UPA an email (which i did). Several weeks later I received a very short email (containing none of the information I asked for) requesting me to give them a call!

let me add that I like most players around the world look to the US as the best place to play pool. It still holds many of the biggest events and has a history unmatched by any other nation. I like many others on this forum would love to see it work.

Again just my advice but a very simple an easy thing for the UPA to do would be to publish its ranking system on its website and reveiw its invitational events policy. A tour must be fair to all, but more importantly it must be "seen" to be fair to all.

A few links of tours that publish their ranking points system:

http://www.bpppa.com/rankings/system_9ball.html
http://www.epbf.com/sportsite/Rankings/eurork.html
http://www.9ballpool.co.uk/tournaments/tour_rankings.html?tour=7

PS
I don't know of any that have ranking events that are invite only!?

 

[Cuteone]

a man's world

you keep living in that world manly. i'm sure the those guys check this forum right after dealing with all the issues of the billiard world and espn. send them a 'hi' for me! if your interested in being a top player stop posting and start practicing!

 

[manlyshot]

you keep living in that world manly. i'm sure the those guys check this forum right after dealing with all the issues of the billiard world and espn. send them a 'hi' for me! if your interested in being a top player stop posting and start practicing!

It is quite evident that "those guys" don't need to check this forum, Cuetone, since they've got you relaying all of the helpful information, to include use of a telephone. The issues of the billiard world and ESPN will be a moot point very soon if and when the UPA members list diminishes because of attitudes like yours.

I pass the same advice to you, Cuetone. If you are interested in the UPA being the best that it can be, wake up and smell the coffee. You need to practice what the UPA preaches, as detailed in full on the UPA web site:"Believing that the growth of the game of professional pool and its high standing in this country is largely due to the efforts of its early professional exponents and because of their ideals of sportsmanship and ethical practices, the UPA is dedicated to the perpetuation of those ideals."

Some of its early professional exponents are the same pool players that the UPA has prevented in the past and is continuing to prevent today from advancing because of its inequitable ranking system.

 

[Cuteone]

right...

your'e so right manly. I call them up and tell them all the little crap you and your buddys come up with on this site. they just love that because their sitting around waiting to know all the little bad things people are saying about them and I enjoy bothering them with your whinning and sniffling.

and yes, their numbers are dwindelling so fast! their membership is going down! these new deals don't help them grow manly. them being on espn and on every cell phone with new sites and deals and everything else they have going on is sign of their downfall isn't it? they are getting the top guys back on board and your sqauwking something about their membership going down?

also, i don't think there's anyone here who thinks that them helping a person like you perpetuates men's pool in any way shape or form. i bet if they knew you they'd hope you get your 100 to yourself. if anything your crap just shows the emptiness of your arguments against them.

i guess you do help the upa. keep up the good work.

 

[cardiac kid]

you keep living in that world manly. i'm sure the those guys check this forum right after dealing with all the issues of the billiard world and espn. send them a 'hi' for me! if your interested in being a top player stop posting and start practicing!

Cuteone,

You're wasting your breath. I understand this forum is for an exchange of ideas. Some of those ideas are complaints. OK, the majority are. Very infrequently, someone comes up with something positive to say about the subject in question. Manlyshot and I have "argued" over the same things, for over a year. He complains about the UPA. I suggest a way to help. He then complains about another part of the UPA. The energy used to question would be better spent building, rather than destroying.

Posters like "The One" had a legitimate question to ask. I'm afraid he hasn't received the answer he was looking for yet. I asked my good friend, a member of the UPA Executive Board to intersede on "The One"s behalf. After reading his most recent post, it appears he received an answer but not the one he was looking for. If you know someone in UPA management, your energy might be better spent trying to get that answer. "The One" will be here soon.

 

[manlyshot]

your'e so right manly. I call them up and tell them all the little crap you and your buddys come up with on this site. they just love that because their sitting around waiting to know all the little bad things people are saying about them and I enjoy bothering them with your whinning and sniffling.

In case you haven't noticed, Cuetone, there are others who have expressed concern over the UPA's inequitable ranking system.

and yes, their numbers are dwindelling so fast! their membership is going down! these new deals don't help them grow manly. them being on espn and on every cell phone with new sites and deals and everything else they have going on is sign of their downfall isn't it? they are getting the top guys back on board and your sqauwking something about their membership going down?

Time will tell, Cuetone. If the UPA exerted the same effort to its membership as they do to wheeling and dealing with prospective sponsors, it would be one happy UPA family now, wouldn't it?

also, i don't think there's anyone here who thinks that them helping a person like you perpetuates men's pool in any way shape or form. i bet if they knew you they'd hope you get your 100 to yourself. if anything your crap just shows the emptiness of your arguments against them.

It is this attitude, Cuetone, that is reminiscent of the early administration of the UPA, prohibiting pool players from making a living, discriminatory practices, strong-arming independent promoters with threats, scheduling UPA events at the same time as independently promoted events, and the blatant disregard for aspiring pool players who desire to compete in tournaments promoted by Matchroom Sport and other fair and equitable pool organizations. And let's not forget how Earl Strickland was treated in the early days of the UPA. Whatever your opinion about Earl, he is an American who holds the most championship titles in this country and is one of the biggest draws for any tournament he plays in.

i guess you do help the upa. keep up the good work.

Thank you.

 

[jjinfla]

Charlie Williams is the point leader in the Florida Men's Pro Tour and even though he didn't come in the money today I think he earned enough points to stay ahead of Rodney Morris, Mika Immonen and Rob Saez.

Morris and Saez sure have played great this year and deserve their high rating. As does Charlie.

I watched Morris play Cruz today and he made one bad shot in 9 racks. That was his break in rack 9 when he broke and couldn't see the 1 because the 8 blocked it by a half inch. Rodney pushed out giving Cruz a jump shot at the 1. Cruz hit the 1 but didn't sink it and Rodney ran the rack. Cruz had two shots in 9 racks. Morris made the 9 on the break in racks 2 & 4 and broke and ran 3,5,6,7, & 8.

Jake

 

[Cuteone]

charlie be damned!

this is an outrage! charlie must be faking it. I bet he's in control of the florida rankings along with the upa's rankings. how can I get the florida rankings system? what a suspect organization with shotty ranking system if charlie is up top!

I can't believe this! where is there site? how come they don't post everything for the world to see? how suspect, how shady in their dealings, how unprofessional and deamening to upcoming upstarts like manlyman and bunghole and dingo berry.

someone please call them! give me a number... I can't live with this unacceptable behavior on the men's florida pro tour!

 

[TheOne]

LOL, your all mad!

If somebody, somewhere out there can answer the original question to this thread I'm sure it would be of some help to me and others. Its not a tricky question, not even a secret I think/hope? I would just like to know so I know hpw many events I have to win before I can play in the BCA event (small ambition of mine

Again, if everyone could stop being so defensive and provide some answers that would be great.

BTW
All I ever wanted to know was simply how the points system works. Manly Shot has made what most would consider a valid point about the invite system and I do agree with him on that point. If anyone could explain why this invitational system exists and if there are any plans to change it in the future to make it fairer for the new members that would be a bonus.

 

[TheOne]

Cuteone,
Posters like "The One" had a legitimate question to ask. I'm afraid he hasn't received the answer he was looking for yet. I asked my good friend, a member of the UPA Executive Board to intersede on "The One"s behalf. After reading his most recent post, it appears he received an answer but not the one he was looking for. If you know someone in UPA management, your energy might be better spent trying to get that answer. "The One" will be here soon.

Thanks for your help CK, your right I still haven't found the answer which is becoming a bit bemusing? I don't think I have said anything unfair or sarcastic, I reserved judgement on the UPA when everyone was bashing it. However my own experience has only confirmed what everyone else has been saying which is to say the least dissapointing. But although the UK and Euro tour are looking more appealing by the day I would still like to find the answers. I find it hard to beleive that a 6 stop, some invite only tour is the best the US has to offer - surely not!?

 

[cardiac kid]

I find it hard to beleive that a 6 stop, some invite only tour is the best the US has to offer - surely not!?

Hi The One,

I guess I must have missed something somewhere. To the best of my knowledge, here in the US, only the BCA 9 Ball Open is an invitational event. With John Lewis gone from there, I don't even know with whom to speak about the misnomer of "Open". The interesting part of that event is thirty two players are invited based on other criteria. Their nation of residence as an example. Rather than taking everyone by UPA points, some entries are reserved for Chinese, Japanese, European, Etc. players. You might find that your Australian citizenship will get you a spot before the UPA points system does. I will try to find that information for you. At least with whom you might speak. Again good luck to you in your travels.

Incidently, I remember when the change was made to invite "foreigners". There was a pretty large outcry from some players. In the past, some spots were also reserved for "Hall of Fame" players. I'm not sure if that is still true.

 

[TheOne]

Hi The One,

I guess I must have missed something somewhere. To the best of my knowledge, here in the US, only the BCA 9 Ball Open is an invitational event. With John Lewis gone from there, I don't even know with whom to speak about the misnomer of "Open". The interesting part of that event is thirty two players are invited based on other criteria. Their nation of residence as an example. Rather than taking everyone by UPA points, some entries are reserved for Chinese, Japanese, European, Etc. players. You might find that your Australian citizenship will get you a spot before the UPA points system does. I will try to find that information for you. At least with whom you might speak. Again good luck to you in your travels.

Incidently, I remember when the change was made to invite "foreigners". There was a pretty large outcry from some players. In the past, some spots were also reserved for "Hall of Fame" players. I'm not sure if that is still true.

Yes I know that CK, your right. The problem is I'm british and living in Oz as a temp resident so I am unable to qualify from Oz. Hence the reason I'm off back to UK or US to try to play more pool and qualify. I think the point that manly shot made about the UPA tour being unfare if one or more of the ranking events is invite only is a valid one. Just my opinion but my main question was how the ranking points are distributed. Any how it looks like its going to difficult for me to get into the US at the moment so it looks like I'll be heading back to Europe/UK after some hustling in Asia. Like you say, if I manage to get ranked in UK I will get invited to the BCA anyway.

 

[manlyshot]

Objectivity and the truth

I reserved judgement on the UPA when everyone was bashing it. However my own experience has only confirmed what everyone else has been saying which is to say the least dissapointing.

Bingo, Mate.

 

[manlyshot]

I can't believe this! where is there site? how come they don't post everything for the world to see? how suspect, how shady in their dealings, how unprofessional and deamening to upcoming upstarts like manlyman and bunghole and dingo berry.

someone please call them! give me a number... I can't live with this unacceptable behavior on the men's florida pro tour!

The points and ranking system of the Men's Florida Pro Tour, Cuetone, do not dictate who gets to play in the upcoming WPC, BCA Open, and other tournaments around the world. It is a very successful regional tour which is growing in popularity, evidenced by the attendance of many top professional players.

Danny Basavich did not play in the BCA Open this year, even though he was eligible as a member of the men's professional pool organization. Danny Basavich will not receive the UPA ranking points, the same ranking points currently used to qualify aspiring pool players who desire to compete in next year's WPC, BCA Open, and other tournaments around the world.

Charlie Williams is a phenomenal player, and it is not surprising to see him at the top of the Men's Florida Pro Tour points list.

Danny Basavich is an extraordinary player, and it is a disgrace that he may not be given the same opportunity as his peers because of him not being able to receive the BCA Open ranking points on a tour with six tournaments.

 

[Cuteone]

answered already!!!

the questions you pose about inviations to the bca thing were already on other threads when the upa invites and rankings were discussed. if you remember correctly this was one of the many topics that i asked the upa about personally.

the bca open is top 32 upa guys! mr. basovich was to play in the event however NO one could contact him. the upa did not have any current contact info for danny as mr. alvarez, danny's good friend tried contacting him personally as well with no success. mr. tipton also tried his resources to contact danny b. and could not do it. there is no big mystery here as you guys would like.

you say that the playing in the bca open is a goal or whatever? then compete and get in the top 32 of the upa! you can't be too determined however you can't even make a phone call to them and ask them. instead you come to forums for info on the event?

be sure to leave any msg's for nascar on here. you know, what it takes to drive, and what not.

good luck.

 

[manlyshot]

the questions you pose about inviations to the bca thing were already on other threads when the upa invites and rankings were discussed. if you remember correctly this was one of the many topics that i asked the upa about personally.

That was very kind of you.

the bca open is top 32 upa guys! mr. basovich was to play in the event however NO one could contact him.

The BCA Open is the "top 32 UPA guys" selected by the UPA. To date, the UPA ranking system and points have not been made available for public disclosure. It is odd that Danny Basavich's telephone number and address were not provided in the UPA player's contract. This may be a helpful suggestion for the UPA, to obtain the players' personal contact information when they pay their membership fees and sign the dotted line of the legally binding contract.

you say that the playing in the bca open is a goal or whatever? then compete and get in the top 32 of the upa! you can't be too determined however you can't even make a phone call to them and ask them. instead you come to forums for info on the event?

Since the UPA ranking points received by UPA members who play in the BCA Open is used to determine who is eligible for the next BCA Open, WPC, and other tournaments around the world, it would seem logical, Cuetone, that participating in it would be a goal for any aspiring pool player.

be sure to leave any msg's for nascar on here. you know, what it takes to drive, and what not. good luck.

Thank you for the good luck, Cuetone. It makes about as much sense as the current UPA ranking system.

 

[Cuteone]

can we move on now?

when I spoke to mr. alvarez he told me that the contact info that he had for danny was no longer good. he told me that this was not an uncommon issue with pool player's addresses and phone numbers. however I'm sure that the upa could have known using psychic powers that they player info has changed. they probably just didn't update it. damn the upa!

 

[Billiard Architect]

The people you refere to in this thread are faceless nameless screen names in a forum. I don't know them and my sources never heard of them. For example Johnny "V" bills himself as the formost expert on table repairs, He claims to have a website with over 80,000 hits but my Brunswick Certified Table Mechanic has never heard of him. No one touches my Brunswick Table except the certified mechanic.

Well that is good that you are using certified mechanics to work on your table. I believe I said that " I am considered the foremost authority on building and maintaining your pooltable". Because I have been told by a person that puts together Brunswick tables in the Brunswick Factory for 20 years, told by several Table Mechanics and countless visitors to my site that my instructions and suggestions are well thought out and very knowledgable that is why I said I was "Considered"... "Considered" and "Being" are two different things. I would never say that "I am" the foremost authority because I know that Ernesto and many others know a hell of a lot more than I will ever know. But name one that gives the information for free and answers (or at least tries to) every email they get? And by the way I am not faceless. My name is all over my website (which I have posted many times).

Now please stop with the slanderous comments because you are only trying to mask that fact that you do not know the answer to the original question.

Let me ask two questions very simply and all you need to do is answer them with a "Yes" or "No" answers....

"Is the Point System Scores to the Tournaments publicly published so that if people have questions about the scoring they can easily see how the players are ranked?"

"Do you think that the twenty second ranked player on the Calendar ranking should be considered for playing in the Mosconi Cup?"

John Kirchel aka Johnny "V" aka SSCS (not faceless)...

 

[manlyshot]

Mystery continues

when I spoke to mr. alvarez he told me that the contact info that he had for danny was no longer good. he told me that this was not an uncommon issue with pool player's addresses and phone numbers. however I'm sure that the upa could have known using psychic powers that they player info has changed. they probably just didn't update it. damn the upa!

In hindsight, the UPA should have considered sending Danny Basavich an invitation letter by mail.

The UPA had a full presence at the UPA sanctioned Valley Forge tournament in March of 2004. Danny Basavich was present as well.

The BCA Open occurred in Las Vegas in May of 2004, two months later.

It may have been prudent for the UPA to inform Danny Basavich in March of 2004 that he was ranked in the top 32 and eligible to play in the BCA Open in Las Vegas since the UPA was unable to contact him by phone or at his home address.

By the way, Danny Basavich's home address is the same today as it was when he joined the UPA and has not changed.