Williams... UPA... Rankings... What the?!?!

[Cuteone]

cry babies and the upa

not only did we understand gremlin we explained it to others. of course they had to chime in with their hating charlie and critising the union of player we know as the upa. its seems to me that the concept of the upa is elementary. actors own the industry, writers own their industry, baseball players need be heard or games don't get played, pool pro's that make events happen should be in one governing body.

anyone else out there have all the top pro's in their organization? oh yes, and let me say again. gabe is a upa touring pro. take a look at the roster.

www.upatour.org

 

[Celtic]

Does the UPA really deserve 4 spots to be based on their rankings? How many tournaments does the UPA run each year for the pro players to build up those rankings? How does the "pro" organization ostrasize one of the largest stars in the game (like him or not).

Seems to me if they ran a large tournament every 2 weeks with a large enough prize purse to pull all the best players in each week then the rankings would mean alot, that is not what I am seeing though. There are very few UPA events that make up those rankings if I am not mistaken. Furthermore the money and location of the events is not enough such that it pulls the feilds it should, none of it's events are of the caliber of the US-Open, not even close. It seems this is why CW is near the top in the rankings, as a founding member of the UPA he goes to every single tourney they have, regardless of the money (or lack of it) or the location. It seems you have a select few people who actually support and play in all the UPA events and those people are near the top of the rankings based strictly on their showing up, and not so much on being the best pool players.

Is this really worth 4 spots on the Mosconi Cup team? The UPA is not the PGA, they are not doing their job and getting the 20+ premier tournaments a year with full fields of ALL the top pro's and good payouts. They lack some of the top players in the game, and there is little making those players really care about that fact. They are not really a good ranking organization IMO.

 

[cardiac kid]

Well now Celtic,

Could you please tell me who is doing a better job of running a professional caliber nationwide tour either in the U.S. or Canada? There are lots of regional tours like the Joss, Viking, Pechaur, etc. There also is Le Scratch in Ontario and Quebec. I read lots of complaints both about Charlie Williams and the UPA here at AZ. All the complaints seem to come from people who either don't like Charlie or have a personal axe to grind with the UPA. Its so easy to complain. Its very difficult to organize, produce and fill a billiard tournament field. Their problem is compounded by at least ten or twenty egos already gone wild. If you think you can do better, please step up to the plate. I'll even join and play in your events.

Please think about your comments. Whether Charlie Williams or any other individual or group puts up the added tournament money, it is a risk. There are no guaranties either in pool or in life (just ask Mr. Behrman). Who is going to put up the money to rent the hotel facilities? Where are you going to get the tables? How are you going to get the players to the event? Who will run the events? Who will keep track of event statistics? Who will run your web site? Who will keep tabs on the membership and be a contact person? Do this ten or more times a year and move the event location thousands of miles each time. How are you going to pay the people doing the work? Is the picture getting clearer? The UPA is not perfect and never will be. But its the best we have right now and its getting better!

As Mr. Riches posts have confirmed, only four of the six spots are determined by the UPA. He decides on the other two. Would you be happier if he chooses the entire American team? Finally, you mention the UPA lacks some of the top players in the game. Other than Earl, please name them. If you have trouble remembering, go to www.upatour.org and check the touring pros list. I like Earl. I hate Earl. The UPA seems to be doing just fine without him.

 

[manlyshot]

The UPA seems to be doing just fine without him.

And the 32 UPA members who were selected by the UPA to attend the BCA Open in Las Vegas will continue to be eligible for next year's WPC.

All other UPA members are at a disadvantage by not being afforded the same opportunity to receive ranking points. The UPA seems to be doing just fine? This is an injustice to every single member of the organization who did not attend this tournament. The ranking system, as it currently exists, is flawed.

 

[manlyshot]

It seems this is why CW is near the top in the rankings, as a founding member of the UPA he goes to every single tourney they have, regardless of the money (or lack of it) or the location. It seems you have a select few people who actually support and play in all the UPA events and those people are near the top of the rankings based strictly on their showing up, and not so much on being the best pool players.

Bingo, Celtic.

 

[manlyshot]

As Mr. Riches posts have confirmed, only four of the six spots are determined by the UPA. He decides on the other two. Would you be happier if he chooses the entire American team?

Yes.

Finally, you mention the UPA lacks some of the top players in the game. Other than Earl, please name them. If you have trouble remembering, go to www.upatour.org and check the touring pros list. I like Earl. I hate Earl. The UPA seems to be doing just fine without him.

As is Dragon Promotions, one of the UPA's strongest sponsors on the current so-called men's tour.

Like Earl or hate Earl, he performed well at the last Mosconi Cup. I am not able to recall how well Charlie Williams did. Nick Varner was the team captain and kept everyone in high spirits. Jeremy Jones, then the most recent U.S. Open 9 Ball Winner, had a great performance at the last Mosconi Cup. It would be stupendous to see Gabe Owen given the opportunity to play.

 

[Celtic]

I just did alot of reading on the UPA website. I cannot say it alleviated any concerns or made everything clear and alot more honest looking. If anything it makes it look even worse.

First off, seeding rankings and calender rankings. OK, Charlie is 3rd in seeding rankings and yet he is 22nd in calander rankings. This is not very innocent looking. The seeding rankings will give you a sweeter spot in tournaments, and it will also be used for invites to international tournaments as long as 3 tournaments have not been played up to that point in the year (and the 3rd tourney in the 2004 schedual started on August 5th, that is over half the year where the calander rankings are not usable).

It has been brought up before, there is a tournament where you must be invited, the BCA in Vegas. This requires a high ranking (calander? seeding? I would guess the latter since it is early in the season and 3 tournies have not been played) This is 1/6th of the entire ranking events for 2004, how can a touring body justify cutting out it's proffesional players of a major part of the ranking points like that, it is a catch 22, if you have the points, you get to play in the event, and get more points, ect.... If you cannot go to that event due to low ranking points you are trying to play catch the leaders with one leg in a cast already. It would be ok if you had 20 or 30 tournies over the year, missing one due to not qualifying would take you out of 1/20th or so of the points, but not on a 6 tourney year, and sure as hell not on a seeding ranking that builds up those previous BCA's a person played in. It is a system that is built to keep those people at the top.

Then there is the problem with the UPA name itself, and the profeesionals actual feelings towards the organization. Sure, they have a huge number of pro players on their list, but how many actually support the organization and show up at ALL the UPA events? Or even a majority? The Calgary Great White tournament set up 20k to get UPA sanctioning and become another ranking event, this would have been huge for the UPA to get another tour stop. The tourney folded because CW could not get his "pro" players to actually commit to playing in a UPA sanctioned tournament. A tourney director is told he needs to have 20k added for UPA sanction and then the pro's dont bother signing up for the tournament, or ask for appearance fees. This makes me wonder how proudly that pro list should be waved, it seems to me it is nothing more then the people that fronted up a membership/pro fee that was required to play in a event or 2 a year. It is little more then me going to one of the tours in the States and paying my extra $50 or whatnot to get my tour membership that allows me to play in the event. It is going a little far to think of me as a member of the tour and a regular player. I think most pro's on that list are little more then that.

And that is the problem. We know pro's are not showing up for UPA events due to what happend in Calgary. So those pro tour rankings are little more then a sham. The people that are at the top are there because they showed up, not because they are the best. And this is OK, it is not even really Charlie's fault, I am sure he would love all the pro's to show up at all his UPA tournaments, but they dont. So the rankings are not showing who is the best, they are showing who are the best that actually show up to all the events, or a majority. And this is why I ask, do they really warrent getting 4 spots to pic for the Mosconi Cup? They are not ranking the players correctly on the tournaments that matter.

Take golf, the PGA controls the mass majority of the big events. Those big events all give you ranking points. The US Open in golf, points. The US Open in pool, no ranking points. The world Championships in pool, no ranking points. The Reno Open, no ranking points. The UPA needs more events, they need to get the marquee events under their sanction and include them in the rankings. They need another 10 tournaments on top of that. They need desperately to get out of the pool only sponsership they are doing and start marketing the sport to big companies, Coke, Budweiser, Ford, Ceasers Palace, whatever they can get. These companies could each take an event, make it the "Ford Atlanta Open" and add 100k to the event. It is a drop in the bucket to them, it is a tax rightoff, it is totally obtainable. get that kind of money and you kill off the problem of the players sluffing it off. Make the average tournament pay out 50k to first place, pay half of the field, lowest spot pays $500 or so. Now make 20 of those tournies, make 5 big events, the UPA championship, the US Open, the Worlds, then get a couple more, make their own version of the masters, and maybe the European Open. Make the big events all 100K or so first place. Actually make these pro's have a reason to show up.

Next, make a qualification school ala the PGA. No schmoe off the street can play in the events. You need to qualify in one of 6 regional events. One in Canada, 2 in the USA (1 per a coast), 1 in Europe, 1 in the area of Saudi Arabia, and one in Asia. These go each year, and the top 2 people in each event get their tour card. The following year you must end up fairly high in the money list, the top 3/4 or so. The bottom people are dropped and lose their cards to make way for the qualifiers from the events and perhaps high finishers in the 2 Open's who may not be carded. Winners of the last 2 years are exempt from losing their cards.

I could go on and on. I wont. I am in the middle of a masters program so I cannot come and run a professional billiards tour. Not to say I could not, honestly I think I could organize and get going a huge tour. It would take some time but given what CW has to work with ATM I find he is going nowhere. I dont see the UPA improving, I see it sitting there doing nothing other then giving afew specific players alot more credit then may be due to them.

 

[manlyshot]

I just did alot of reading on the UPA website. I cannot say it alleviated any concerns or made everything clear and alot more honest looking. If anything it makes it look even worse.

Agreed.

It is a system that is built to keep those people at the top.

Tell it like it is, Celtic.

I dont see the UPA improving, I see it sitting there doing nothing other then giving afew specific players alot more credit then may be due to them.

Therein lies the problem.

 

[cardiac kid]

Celtic,

I was going to add manlyshot in my reply to you. I left him out because I already knew his position and attitude. Not once, in all the posts I've read of his bad mouthing both Charlie Williams and the UPA, has he every presented a single positive thought or constructive suggestion. I would guess that he is an anarchist. Nothing to him is better than something. At least you are willing, but not currently able, to try to do something!

Last year, posts were buzzing about a great new tour being put together by the Seminole Native American Tribe. People were suggesting that it would immediately replace the UPA because a few players, sponsored by the Tribe were going to play in it and bring the others. There would be lots of money added. Lots of stops. Lots of promises. What happened? Those same folks predicted the demise of the UPA. The UPA is still here. And the Tribe sponsored players are now UPA members.

It is really, really hard to put together a coherent tour. Even a single event of that magnitude. Ask the Berhman's. If you don't like them, ask Greg Sullivan or Mark Griffin of Diamond Promotions. It costs money up front. Lots of it. The UPA charges a single event membership fee, people complain. They give points only to people who are full, paid contracted members. People complain.

Last year, Keith Mcready almost won the US Open sponsored by Budweiser. In a lighter moment, I suggested that as a "part owner" of "Bud", he would be a perfect candidate to appear in their advertising. That is one problem facing both corporate America and the billiard world. Another is flagrent illegal drug use by some competitors to improve or create their performance. One single arrest. Not even a conviction, would send most of the sponsors packing again. I haven't even got to cutting up backers or throwing matches.

What do you think would happen in the wonderful world of professional golf if a player was found doing what is common in our game? Be honest. The PGA would make them disappear instantly. Regardless of who it is. The players do what the PGA wants them to do. Not the other way round. That is one of the reasons the PGA has succeeded. We can laugh about Earl going off on live TV. How do think Ford Motor Company and their advertising agency would react?

Anyway Celtic, thank you for your posts. We do not always agree. I enjoy reading your posts. They are thought provoking!

 

[Keith McCready]

Last year, Keith Mcready almost won the US Open sponsored by Budweiser. In a lighter moment, I suggested that as a "part owner" of "Bud", he would be a perfect candidate to appear in their advertising. That is one problem facing both corporate America and the billiard world.

Cardiac Kid, I'm not sure why you continue to bring up my name.

I don't even know you. You did the same thing earlier this year in a thread about the Derby City Classic, which you later apologized for.

I enjoy talking to the fans and other players, but it is posts like yours that create a problem for me on this forum.

 

[manlyshot]

Just read this thread now! Manley Shot, Celtic, Johnny "V". The over the hill gang trying to impose there narrow minded, out dated ideas in a billiard forum.

Coming from you, this is quite humorous.

Manley shot doesn't play well enough to get out of the first round without a bye.

Again, coming from you, this is indeed humorous.

Celtic and Johnny "V" never heard of them? Cardiac, Luke, Pelican, sjm and cuteone are the only members I recognize in this thread.

Because they agree with you.

This is just another time consuming lecture by "Manleyshot" and "Celtic" on their ideas about pool. A couple of do nothings. What have you done for pool?

Is this really necessary?

Charlie Williams was elected the first president of the UPA.

Self elected first president of the UPA.

Hell, I could go on until I run out of space

Or Crown Royal, by your own admission.

 

[Billiard Architect]

Very well put Celtic.

Bottom line.. I go back to my original question and not using any names... Is there a breakdown of the point distribution listed anywhere on the internet for the "sanctioned" tournaments? I would like to know how a "seeded" ranking is used until the 8th month of the year and is based on 10 events and the 3rd ranked person, who has not been higher than 17th-24th in the last 4 sanctioned tournaments, ranked third? It should be an easy question to answer.

I remember when the WPBA (and I think BCA) ranked players in the back of Billiards Digest Magazine. (they may still do it, I am no longer a subscriber) It listed what points, what place and how much money the top 25 ranked players were currently listed as.

It is very simple... Most of the tour organizations in professional sports have done such a great job in promoting their sport that everyone in that sport either freely join them or go out of their way to get on in. The UPA cannot say the same thing. They have done many questionable things like boycotted tournaments, scheduled their own sanctioned tournaments during other tournaments and ostracized players (who were forced to sign after negotiated contracts, Duell is my example) from playing in tournaments.

The UPA and CW have done nothing to me and I do not have an axe to grind with either one. I just think that if they think that they are going to try and promote and build an industry, that I love to play in, with the way that they have been doing things they are sadly mistaken. I am all for a union of professionals. I am just asking that it is done correctly and fairly. If you can convince me by using examples (tournament points, when calendar rankings were used, etc.) and not calling me ignorant then I will agree. But no one has said anything that has proven that things are on the up and up. Just saying that I don't understand doesn't make it right. Show me how it is right!!!

 

[Billiard Architect]

cuteone,

Just read this thread now! Manley Shot, Celtic, Johnny "V". The over the hill gang trying to impose there narrow minded, out dated ideas in a billiard forum.

Sorry I don't consider 37 over the hill...

Manley shot doesn't play well enough to get out of the first round without a bye. Celtic and Johnny "V" never heard of them? Cardiac, Luke, Pelican, sjm and cuteone are the only members I recognize in this thread.

I have been on billiard forums for years and have written for Billiard Digest (3 issues). I built and am considered the foremost authority on building and maintaining your pooltable. I have a web site that has over 80,000 hits on it describing how to build, recloth and maintain your pooltable (FOR FREE). I, on an average, answer 20 emails a month on pooltable questions and don't ask for anything in return. I have in my own way promoted this sport/game.

...snipped a lot of Charlie Williams accomplishments...

I don't discredit ANY of Charlie Williams accomplishments. Like I have said numerous times I am very glad he is trying to get the sport/game recognition. You could put Takahashi's name in 3rd place of the seeding and it would not matter to me. So my question to you is...

Does anything on the list that you posted warrent him to be ranked third in the seeding? If so which one/ones? According to the web site it should be based on the last 10 sanctioned events.

Cheers to you back...

 

[cardiac kid]

According to the web site it should be based on the last 10 sanctioned events.

Johnny,

It seems to me last year, Charlie Williams won three or four consecutive UPA events. Perhaps that is why he still has enough ranking points to be third seeded. I could be wrong. I'll be sixty this year. I think?

There is way too much energy wasted debating the merits or lack there of, of the UPA. There is no alternative. The "old" BCA? What did they ever do for professional pool? The APA? They support the Woman's Tour. The WPA? If we can't allow the United Nations to suggest solutions to us, how can we allow another world sactioning body to run our game? I was taught to work within the system to make changes. That's what I understood to be "The American Way".

Incidently, Gremlin may recognize my "handle". I can get out of the first round of a professional event without a bye. Making the top thirty two at the DCC nine ball will attest to that.

Regarding the UPA's business methods. Boycotting tournaments? The US Open is the only one I'm aware of. Why? Because the promoters failed to pay some of the players in the previous year's event. See the post regarding the "banned player" on this thread.

Earl acted like a child. Charlie perhaps acted like a child. Regardless, someone must maintain some reason and rule. I've tried to get Earl and Charlie to shake hands. It ain't going to happen!

Tournament conflicts happen all the time. There are a limited number of dates available. It seems to me that Grady is running an event the same days as the Reno Open. Poop happens.

Finally, ponder this question. What if Tiger Woods decided that he was going to refuse to sign a PGA contract for next year? Do you really think the PGA would allow him to play? So much has been made of the terrible UPA contract (the WPBA has the exact same contract, but don't confuse this with the facts). Again, too much energy has been wasted debating.

 

[Keith McCready]

Again, too much energy has been wasted debating.

You put a little too much energy bashing me, Cardiac Kid. You drag my name around like you know me and own me. I don't know where you get the right to say what you say. I wish you would say it to my face. Seeing so, we don't know each other -- and I am glad that we don't -- I am sure that we will probably end up keeping it that way, but it is guys like you why it is amazing to me that anybody would even think about posting on these discussion forums.

Just for your information for the future, please don't use my name in any of your conservations anymore. Do us both a favor. It will save us both a lot of headaches.

Hey, Mike, I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to post on this forum, but it's guys like this that make it bad for a guy like me. Apparently, this guy's got nothing else better to do than to just keep dropping my name into his threads. I don't even know this guy. I don't know why he would do it, unless he's got a hard-on for me or something.

Get Charlie and Earl on here and see how they like it. Maybe it will give some of these folks somebody else to target. Since I don't see them responding, it seems like they don't want to have nothing to do with it, and now I know why.

Keith

 

[Cuteone]

get over it...

for the most part bashers of the upa and charlie argue like children.

1. cw's ranking on the calendar is lower than his seeding ranking. If you would just put half your brain to work you could figure out the fact that this just means cw did better in the overall last ten events then he did in the last four.

2. the upa has NEVER boycotted anything. so let's just shut up about this already.

3. it was the seminoles that didn't want their sponsored players corey, frankie and whoever else signing. but these guys are back on board. as the upa has worked things out with the seminoles.

4. the upa has reached out their hand to earl, but earl doesn't shake it. in fact the upa alloted a wild card spot for him for the big apple event.

5. there is NO other organization in existence for the men! apa is for amatuers, bca league for amatuers, acs is for amatuers. you guys moan and complain, meanwhile the industry recognizes the upa for what they are. brunswick is official table, aramith balls, and simonis cloth all recognized as the "official" product of men's pro pool. obviously not everyone lives in your little worlds.

6. I'm getting the over all feeling that the upa is growing by leaps and bounds. I also get the feeling that the upa has genuinely good people at the helm. the deals they are cutting now are going to come to fruition soon and you can bet that they have other things the works. what are you going to complain about when their game goes global on cell phones?

You guys are doing nothing than complaining about an organization that has growing pains. if a man builds a resturant and starts off with 3 employees, it's hardly fair to compare him to the ideal resturant in las vegas. give them a chance to grow...

until then, I'm going to pull for the guys that are working at making men's pool what it needs to be. so they are not doing it "your way." don't see you doing anything other than talking $#!+ on a forum.

 

[cardiac kid]

Just for your information for the future, please don't use my name in any of your conservations anymore. Do us both a favor. It will save us both a lot of headaches....Hey, Mike, I appreciate the opportunity you have given me to post on this forum, but it's guys like this that make it bad for a guy like me. Apparently, this guy's got nothing else better to do than to just keep dropping my name into his threads.

Well keith, I can assure you I will not use your name again, good or bad. I am PM'ing Mike regarding your claim that I "keep dropping my name into his threads". Neither you or I can hide from our past. Yours was clearly more colorful than mine.

 

[Billiard Architect]

Johnny,

It seems to me last year, Charlie Williams won three or four consecutive UPA events. Perhaps that is why he still has enough ranking points to be third seeded. I could be wrong. I'll be sixty this year. I think?

Well if that is the case I would like to see the list of events. That is all that I am asking. I have heard that many pros are not happy with the ranking but are afraid of speaking out about it.

There is way too much energy wasted debating the merits or lack there of, of the UPA. There is no alternative.

I agree there is no alternative and that is why it should be run properly. Otherwise there will be NONE!!! If they continue to show preferential treatment (which I will continue to say until I am proven otherwise) then the members will no longer want to participate. If everyone revolts then there will be no UPA.

The "old" BCA? What did they ever do for professional pool? The APA? They support the Woman's Tour. The WPA? If we can't allow the United Nations to suggest solutions to us, how can we allow another world sactioning body to run our game? I was taught to work within the system to make changes. That's what I understood to be "The American Way".

Incidently, Gremlin may recognize my "handle". I can get out of the first round of a professional event without a bye. Making the top thirty two at the DCC nine ball will attest to that.

Regarding the UPA's business methods. Boycotting tournaments? The US Open is the only one I'm aware of. Why? Because the promoters failed to pay some of the players in the previous year's event. See the post regarding the "banned player" on this thread.

So you as the question "Boycotting tournments?" then you state that there is one that you know of?!?! Doesn't one make it so? I also read another that had to cancel because there was not enough money added.

Earl acted like a child. Charlie perhaps acted like a child. Regardless, someone must maintain some reason and rule. I've tried to get Earl and Charlie to shake hands. It ain't going to happen!

Tournament conflicts happen all the time. There are a limited number of dates available. It seems to me that Grady is running an event the same days as the Reno Open. Poop happens.

I agree with you the UPA tournament conflicts "Happen all the time". There was a whole BD article on this when they interviewed the head 3 guys of the UPA last year. Needless to say not all three were still there when the interview was finished.

Finally, ponder this question. What if Tiger Woods decided that he was going to refuse to sign a PGA contract for next year? Do you really think the PGA would allow him to play?

No. And it would never happen because people are killing themselves to be on the PGA. What I see from the UPA is join or don't play. Or better yet join (you might get to play) or don't play. (and yes I can prove this)

So much has been made of the terrible UPA contract (the WPBA has the exact same contract, but don't confuse this with the facts). Again, too much energy has been wasted debating.

I cannot agree or disagree with this because I have not seen either. I have seen the code of conduct on the UPA website and I can say this for certain I would be kicked out for some of the questions I have posed in this thread.

 

[Cuteone]

faceless accusations...

You say there is preferntial treatment, prove it! Give facts that can be confirmed or denied, my resources will be upa phone number, specifially my fav alvarez.

don't lie about the Canadian Open! the upa didn't drop the ball, the promoter Paul Hanson filed bankruptcy cause he didn't have money, let alone the 20k it took for sactioning. still people don't have their money back from this guy, and you can't even get a hold of him. try calling great white billiards in canada and see how far you get. so and how can you possibly say the upa had the problem here. give it a break already.

anyone can say " oh yes, um, players don't like the upa, they are just members of it."

even grady matthews, one of the biggest bashers of the upa from what i've seen in recent past has now joined.

if you're going to talk crap, at least give stuff that can be verified. if you have so much balls, and intelligence, why don't you call the upa and tell them who you are, how you hate them, and why, see what they say to you...

seems simple enough to me. unless of course your just a hater.

 

[Keith McCready]

Well keith, I can assure you I will not use your name again, good or bad. I am PM'ing Mike regarding your claim that I "keep dropping my name into his threads". Neither you or I can hide from our past. Yours was clearly more colorful than mine.

I'm not hiding from my past, whether mine is more colorful than yours or not.

I post on AzBilliards Discussion Forum to interact with fans, players, and others who have a passion for the game, like I do. I still enjoy the game myself. So what little years I do have left in my playing capabilities, I'm hoping to still be able to enjoy them, without getting nitpicked by a guy I don't even know.

I don't believe you've been where I've been, not saying you would want to be either. There's been a lot of fun times and there's been a lot of sad times, but I still wouldn't trade it for nothing. This isn't the first time I've answered a post by you relating to me, but I am glad to know it is the last. Maybe we can get back to discussing pool and give these readers something better to read about.