Women and pool

[gulfportdoc]

For the life of me, I can't understand why....... at the professional level..... there needs to be a separate division for women.


Dave

Because if the women and men pros played in the same tournaments, none of the women could make a living from tournament prizes. None of them would ever win. Only 2 or 3 of them would ever cash significantly.

The WBPA tour appears to be a highly insulated and structured tour for the benefit of a few top women players. If the top men pros were allowed to play in those good paying events, none of the women would ever be in the top 10.

Doc

 

[Nostroke]

Because if the women and men pros played in the same tournaments, none of the women could make a living from tournament prizes. None of them would ever win. Only 2 or 3 of them would ever cash significantly.

The WBPA tour appears to be a highly insulated and structured tour for the benefit of a few top women players. If the top men pros were allowed to play in those good paying events, none of the women would ever be in the top 10.

Doc

I think the top ten would be a lock within a few tournaments. Allison has only played in two Men's events and won them both though they were regional events. (Viking and I forget) I think 2 for 2 in regional open events equals a top 10 in a National event sooner or later. Also as someone else pointed out, Sarah got 20th out of 300+ at the DCC and she is not yet Allisons speed.

Oh Yeah and didnt Jenny Lee who has never even won pro status in the WPBA get a 9th at Reno?

Yes she did

http://www.azbilliards.com/thepros/2000showplayer2002.cfm?playernum=1473

 

[StormHotRod300]

Ok, i had this discussion last summer with the owner of the pool hall i frequent, about if women can compete with men in tournaments.

And basically everything came down to the power and control of the Mens break.

Not taking anything away from the Womens Tour, but the overall strength of the mens tour is unreal.

If you look at how long some of the guys in the Mens Tournaments have been around for, like Efren, and Johnny, or Rodney, they have been around for yrs and play against the Top players all the time.

Now if you look back at the competion on the womens side, its basically, your either in the top 16 all the time or your fighting for the left overs.

and you can go back several yrs in the womens tour and look at how the competion faired, in the early 90's it was Ewa, Loree Jon, Vivian, Robin Bell, basically winning everything, and then Gerda was starting to win some tournaments, along with Jeanette. And for a bit Robin Dodson.

Then 96' Allison Fisher came over and basically took over winning lol.

Now Allison doesnt win every event, but for the most part she is always consider'd the favorite to win any event she enters.

On the mens side of things, its like a free for all, and anyone can beat anyone. Now you always have your exceptions, like Efren, who has been on a tear lately.

But its always like every so often someone comes outa nowhere and is hot for a couple months and then someone else is hot for a couple months, and so on.

I myself, would love to see a Men Vs Womens situation, like if they would run the Mens US Open and the Womens US Open at the same time, and then have both winners have a Battle of the Sexes Finals on TV.

but thats just my 2cents

 

[Timberly]

And basically everything came down to the power and control of the Mens break.

Not taking anything away from the Womens Tour, but the overall strength of the mens tour is unreal.

I myself, would love to see a Men Vs Womens situation, like if they would run the Mens US Open and the Womens US Open at the same time, and then have both winners have a Battle of the Sexes Finals on TV.

but thats just my 2cents

I agree on the break thing. I've been told many times that I break like a man and I never fail to raise men's eyebrows in the poolhall or a bar when I break. I might not play as strong as the women on tour but my break is just as strong if not stronger than quite a few of them. That being said, the men far out break me. Last wkend I had the pleasure of banging the balls around with a current touring pro and there were a couple of old guys on the rail watching... I snapped it pretty good and made 3 balls with a decent spread and one of the guys eyes got real big and he made a comment about it. The next game my friend broke and I looked like "I break like a girl". Men are physically stronger than women... that's just a way of life.

I like the idea of a battle of the sexes final on tv. I think it would draw a good crowd, esp since the women are on ESPN so much these days.

 

[Fred Agnir]

OK...good post LS. Sarah said 27 on a 9', the 7' doesn't count. I'd like to have it proved and would be willing to either win or lose some money on it.

As far as Fred goes, I have a lot of respect for him, but he's made some boo-boo's on occasion and he isn't always right or the final word. I'm sure as hell not either, but I'll go out on a limb to find out.

Nobody should ever take what I say as anything other than my opinion or my reporting. That being said, as I said previously, Tiffany won the VF break speed contest pretty much every time she entered. That's at least four times, as has been reported previously. And they documented the break speed with Sardo's radar gun. The break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball, so the table size doesn't matter. If Sarah did 27 mph, then that's even better than what I reported.

What more proof could you possibly need? Maybe seeing it for yourself?

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

No more Fred- The WPBA barred the ladies from the DCC this year even though the DCC was willing to pay the WPBA Recognition or Sanctioning fee.

WPBA aside, women are always free to enter the DCC.

I hope next year, the WPBA allow their players to play. That would be nice.

Fred

 

[drivermaker]

Nobody should ever take what I say as anything other than my opinion or my reporting. That being said, as I said previously, Tiffany won the VF break speed contest pretty much every time she entered. That's at least four times, as has been reported previously. And they documented the break speed with Sardo's radar gun. The break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball, so the table size doesn't matter. If Sarah did 27 mph, then that's even better than what I reported.

What more proof could you possibly need? Maybe seeing it for yourself?

Fred

Well Fred, I'd like a lot more explained about the way it's measured.

What do you mean by "the break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball"? Are they measuring the actual speed of the ball coming off the tip of the cue, or are they measuring the speed of the cue coming into the ball? You can actually get two measurements, which is it? (Don't guess if you really don't know)

And how did Sarah come up with 2 different speeds on varying sized tables that are listed in her thread? What kind of radar gun were they using then? Are all break speeds measured with the same make, model, style of radar gun for both MEN and women at all the different events THROUGHOUT the country at ALL times?

Do none of these radar guns actually measure the speed of the ball as it's traveling down the table?

All I know is last year I was talking to a radar detector CEO/President/expert about the possibility of having a portable and inexpensive unit produced for sale just for pool and it's easier said than done. All of the gadgets that are on the market right now which are used for baseball, golf, auto racing and many other applications are worthless when it comes to pool. The reason is they're not calibrated with the correct frequency for such a short distance.
In addition to that, flourescent lights can play havoc with the frequencies and give false readings. We never were able to get it going and HE bagged the idea. I don't know what type of gun the Sardo is but I'd like to see that for myself first and whether it's the ONLY one used. Their frequencies and calibrations are all different.

I'd like to see them combine the radar gun with a decibel meter. Hell, maybe a decibel meter would be more accurate and should be the ONLY device used.
That will measure the actual impact, which is most important. All I know is when you're at a men's tournament and some of the biggest breakers out there hit the rack it has an entirely different sound than everyone else. It sounds like a cannon going off. Can you honestly compare the break of Sarah and Tiffany to those? And yes...I will have to see it for myself.

Just out of curiosity, what is Sarah and Tiffany's height and weight to make a comparison between them and Alex, Sambajon, or Bustamante?

 

[Nostroke]

Well Fred, I'd like a lot more explained about the way it's measured.

What do you mean by "the break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball"? Are they measuring the actual speed of the ball coming off the tip of the cue, or are they measuring the speed of the cue coming into the ball? You can actually get two measurements, which is it? (Don't guess if you really don't know)

And how did Sarah come up with 2 different speeds on varying sized tables that are listed in her thread? What kind of radar gun were they using then? Are all break speeds measured with the same make, model, style of radar gun for both MEN and women at all the different events THROUGHOUT the country at ALL times?

Do none of these radar guns actually measure the speed of the ball as it's traveling down the table?

All I know is last year I was talking to a radar detector CEO/President/expert about the possibility of having a portable and inexpensive unit produced for sale just for pool and it's easier said than done. All of the gadgets that are on the market right now which are used for baseball, golf, auto racing and many other applications are worthless when it comes to pool. The reason is they're not calibrated with the correct frequency for such a short distance.
In addition to that, flourescent lights can play havoc with the frequencies and give false readings. We never were able to get it going and HE bagged the idea. I don't know what type of gun the Sardo is but I'd like to see that for myself first and whether it's the ONLY one used. Their frequencies and calibrations are all different.

I'd like to see them combine the radar gun with a decibel meter. Hell, maybe a decibel meter would be more accurate and should be the ONLY device used.
That will measure the actual impact, which is most important. All I know is when you're at a men's tournament and some of the biggest breakers out there hit the rack it has an entirely different sound than everyone else. It sounds like a cannon going off. Can you honestly compare the break of Sarah and Tiffany to those? And yes...I will have to see it for myself.

Just out of curiosity, what is Sarah and Tiffany's height and weight to make a comparison between them and Alex, Sambajon, or Bustamante?

I get around pretty much and the only guy i have ever seen measuring breaks in the last 5 years has been Carmine Sardo so id say, whatever it is, it's been apples to apples.

BTW-Have you seen/heard Sarah break?

 

[drivermaker]

I get around pretty much and the only guy i have ever seen measuring breaks in the last 5 years has been Carmine Sardo so id say, whatever it is, it's been apples to apples.

BTW-Have you seen/heard Sarah break?

No I haven't seen/heard her break. I'd like to and if it's that much for real, I'll buy her a steak dinner and roasted crow for myself. (I've had it before although it isn't one of my favorite meals)

 

[landshark77]

No I haven't seen/heard her break. I'd like to and if it's that much for real, I'll buy her a steak dinner and roasted crow for myself. (I've had it before although it isn't one of my favorite meals)

Looks like you are eating crow. Sarah, I will get a nice one off the side of the road...that away it is marinated real well! LMAO!

 

[drivermaker]

Looks like you are eating crow. Sarah, I will get a nice one off the side of the road...that away it is marinated real well! LMAO!

I ain't eatin' nuttin' until I see and judge it for myself. I'll be looking for her appearance in my neck of the woods. You better hope you're not groupie leeching along....you WILL be getting some frogs and other things down your back along with gum in the hair. LOL

 

[landshark77]

I ain't eatin' nuttin' until I see and judge it for myself. I'll be looking for her appearance in my neck of the woods. You better hope you're not groupie leeching along....you WILL be getting some frogs and other things down your back along with gum in the hair. LOL

Oh Drivermaker, you really know how to wow a lady. Ah, you are single aren't you???

....thought so.

 

[sarahrousey]

Alright....I just read this whole thread and I can weigh in a little bit. First off, the break...if it is controlled and you can hit them hard it is a good thing but it doesn't always work. You have to remember that the rack also makes a big difference. If you get a bad rack or if the table racks bad, maybe a softer break will work better. It is all about being consistant.

Now I have posted on this subject abou the difference between men and women and the game of pool tons of times. I have a feminist point of view. Women haven't been playing the game as long as the men. Women have been looked down upon in the pool world. When I walk in a pool room I don't get the same respect that a man would get walking into a pool room. Yes, things are changing. But it takes a strong woman to stick with pool putting up with a bunch of male pool players (no offense). Another thing....women have been taught to be nurturing and whatever instead of having killer instinct. Women are a little more emotional and worry more about outside things in my opinion. Granted that is not all women. I am agreeing that there is a difference between the games of men and women. I don't think it has to do with anything physical. Karen Corr wins tournaments and places well in big tournaments and she doesn't break hard. There are women that have super strokes...maybe not those of Efren or Larry Nevel...but we can draw our ball too. I think it is a matter of time before the women keep up with the men. If it is mental it is just believing in the fact that we are capable of keeping up with the men...confidence.

And drivermaker....I hope you are prepared to buy a steak dinner. I can get witnesses to prove how hard I can hit the balls and I can get even more witnesses to prove that I hit them harder when I was younger. In Valley Forge in 2002 I broke the balls 26.8 with control at the Sardo booth. I know I have hit them harder than that. In Vegas in 2003 on the bar box I came close to winning the men's break contest....I hit them 29 and 28.7. There were about 50 people watching. Maybe Chuck Raulston will read this...he was watching. Oh and they use the same radar gun that is used to calculate how fast a pitcher is pitching. It is all about timing. I was blessed with good timing. I can drive a golf ball a long way too....it is the same concept. And to clear up the size thing...I'm 5'1 and about 110 pounds...some of the Filipino players are smaller than me and break harder. Size doesn't matter.

Anyway...that is my little rant for right now.

Take care,
Sarah

 

[StormHotRod300]

Sarah !!!!!!!!

This is why i love talking to Sarah

I have no doubt if Sarah was taller, she would be able to break harder. If you look at Sarah or Tiffany, they probably could break just as well as the guys, If it was all about a Power Break.

As to reply about what Sarah said about women getting respect in the pool hall, it does happen. A guy who shoots at the pool hall i goto, tried this back in december, he came in with this girl i think her name was Karen. And everyone i know says she shoots really good. Well this guy was playing her in 8ball for race to 5 for 25. Well needless to say he stopped after 3 sets of losing.

Now i have no doubt that if given the chance Sarah or Tiffany, could probably come very close to breaking 30mph on a break shot.

Also, now when the Guys do break over 30mph is it taken in account weather or not the CB stays on the table or is in position to shoot on the OB? Because whats the point of breaking at over 30mph if you cant control the CB?

I would put money on Sarah that she CAN break at the speeds she claims

 

[drivermaker]

And drivermaker....I hope you are prepared to buy a steak dinner. I can get witnesses to prove how hard I can hit the balls and I can get even more witnesses to prove that I hit them harder when I was younger. In Valley Forge in 2002 I broke the balls 26.8 with control at the Sardo booth. I know I have hit them harder than that. In Vegas in 2003 on the bar box I came close to winning the men's break contest....I hit them 29 and 28.7. There were about 50 people watching. Maybe Chuck Raulston will read this...he was watching. Oh and they use the same radar gun that is used to calculate how fast a pitcher is pitching. It is all about timing. I was blessed with good timing. I can drive a golf ball a long way too....it is the same concept. And to clear up the size thing...I'm 5'1 and about 110 pounds...some of the Filipino players are smaller than me and break harder. Size doesn't matter.

Take care,
Sarah

Sarah, I'm not too concerned about all of those other witnesses...my eyes are the only ones that matter and I'd love to see it. Hell, we can also go to the driving range and maybe I'll even make you a high tech driver to hit it further. I guarantee no one else on the WPBA will hit it further than you afterwards. You'll be the "HAMMERIN' PIXIE" of all sports.

As far as dinner goes, I'll do that anyway. I alway thought you were a really decent chick with a lot of drive and determination. (That's anti-feminist talk for broad...I mean lady )

And oh yeah...do yourself a favor by moving heaven and earth in your schedule to go see Hal, not for me...not for him...but for you. Promise?

 

[jjinfla]

I think my money would be on Corey Deuel with his 12 mph break vs Sarah's 30mph break in a match.

A hard break means nothing if a ball doesn't fall and you have a shot on the next ball.

And I think someone did mention that a baseball radar gun would not be accurate on a pool table. It would be accurate for everyone being tested that day on that table but you could not then compare those readings to what we see on TV. They may be the same, or they may be lower or higher. And then of course you have to know when the gun was last calibrated.

Jake

 

[MrLucky]

Agreed!

I think my money would be on Corey Deuel with his 12 mph break vs Sarah's 30mph break in a match.

A hard break means nothing if a ball doesn't fall and you have a shot on the next ball.

And I think someone did mention that a baseball radar gun would not be accurate on a pool table. It would be accurate for everyone being tested that day on that table but you could not then compare those readings to what we see on TV. They may be the same, or they may be lower or higher. And then of course you have to know when the gun was last calibrated.

Jake

as stated earlier in this post IMO! and from what a lot of BCA teachers also say, It is more important to keep CONTROL of the Cue Ball than it is to have the hardest break in town ! I used to break with power now I break with control and my win percentage is much higher than it was prior!

 

[drivermaker]

I think my money would be on Corey Deuel with his 12 mph break vs Sarah's 30mph break in a match.

A hard break means nothing if a ball doesn't fall and you have a shot on the next ball.

And I think someone did mention that a baseball radar gun would not be accurate on a pool table. It would be accurate for everyone being tested that day on that table but you could not then compare those readings to what we see on TV. They may be the same, or they may be lower or higher. And then of course you have to know when the gun was last calibrated.

Jake

That is 100% correct about the radar guns. The only thing that you can say is, on that given day everyone who was tested was tested under the same conditions. If the type of radar gun changes, the flourescent light changes, the distance one is standing away from the table changes, the angle that you're standing from the measurement changes, if you're standing in front of, behind, or off to the side of the player changes, that PARTICULAR radar gun is changed out for another, or the calibration goes slightly out of whack, READOUTS will change.

I use a variety of radar guns and different models to monitor golf swing speeds every single day in my business so I'm highly attuned to their problems and inconsistencies, and there are a lot of variables.

 

[Fred Agnir]

Well Fred, I'd like a lot more explained about the way it's measured.

What do you mean by "the break speed is measured at contact with the cue ball"? Are they measuring the actual speed of the ball coming off the tip of the cue, or are they measuring the speed of the cue coming into the ball? You can actually get two measurements, which is it? (Don't guess if you really don't know)

Carmine Sardo uses a radar gun. The radar gun is pointed to measure the cueball from its initial position.

And how did Sarah come up with 2 different speeds on varying sized tables that are listed in her thread?

She's been measure several times at several different locations. I take it you've never been measured for speed? I can be different by several miles per hour on the same equipment.

What kind of radar gun were they using then?

The Sardo and FURY booth is available to anyone and everyone. They use the same one for the men or women at the same event. As far as I know, they use the same one across the country. I'm sure they'll be available at the BCA Nationals, and possibly the ACS Nationals and/or APA Nationals. It's the same unit that they use for the professional men also, so it's all comparison nonetheless. You should check it out when you get a chance. It'll answer more questions than could be answered here.

Just out of curiosity, what is Sarah and Tiffany's height and weight to make a comparison between them and Alex, Sambajon, or Bustamante?

Santos is probably close to Sarah.

Fred

 

[sarahrousey]

Jake, I agree with you. Power doesn't mean anything. Control and making a ball means something. Alot of the pros that have a strong break tone it down in tournament play. It is usually easier to make balls on the break on the new cloth when you break softer and make solid contact with the one.

Gremlin....I'm really not sure what I did to you for you to make that post. I thank you for pointing something out that I am very well aware of. The only reason my break is brought up is because I am a small girl that can smash the break. That doesn't mean that I use that break everytime I hit the balls because I don't. I don't have alot of control when I break extremely hard. Those speeds were recorded in a fun deal that the point of the competition was to break hard.

You are right Kelly Fisher is a great player that I believe will be number one very soon. She has my utmost respect. If you think I don't realize that I have dropped in the rankings, you are dead wrong. I know that my 4 top 10 finishes are dropping off and I am not preforming as well as I would like. I am well aware of the fact that there are things that I need to work on and the fact that the competition is getting stronger. You may have your doubts about me because you think the only thing to talk about is my break, but I'm giving you fair warning...soon you will be saying....Damn, did you see that Sarah Rousey play.

Take care,
Sarah