Women? Why can't they hang with the men?
- Thread starter PROG8R
- Start date
papercut said:
i don't like the assumption.
is your assumption then that if there were an equal number of women playing pool as men, that there would be a concomitant number of women better than allison or karen. ie,,,if allison and karen were to play in a TOP, let me reiterate,,TOP,,,,not open, but TOP additional 62 men and they were all to play a 126 game schedule, and assuming the gals came in 48th and 49th,,,then if the pool of women were equal to men, and you had the top 64 men playing with the top 64 women, that the final standings would show an equal spread ,,,that the top 64 would not be men-heavy, and that if kk and af were 48th and 49th, that there would be another 24 women placing better than them?
more does not mean better, nor does it mean more better., because for all we know, and this assumption is as valid as yours,,,af and kk may be as good as the women can get.
another point is that your volume reasoning is only valid if women were equal to men to begin with,,,,yet this is the very point of contention in the first place. ie, why does california have more better men players than rhode island. california has a larger population and therefore will produce more better players. you can only make this assertion because men are equal to men. if california was a state full of women players, it doesn't mean california will have better players than rhode island just because there are more players
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Jaden said:
And how well did YOU do at the Swanee?
Jaden said:
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.
oops i guess I didnt read too closely
Nice job by papercut in this thread of explaining the math and statistics. Certainly, this is a big part of the story.
Nonetheless, if one is to accept the "numbers" argument in full, one must buy into the notion that if as many women played the game as men and they practiced just as hard as men (allow me to take the break out of the equation for a moment), about 50% of the top players would be female. I can't buy into that ... at least not yet.
Rather than recounting the superb points already made in this thread, I'll consider another angle.
One thing that I truly believe holds many women back is all the inaccurate feedback they get about their games from men. I'll bet every woman that's ever reached the WPBA's #25 ranking has been told at least once that cracking the Top 10 was something they could achieve with a little fine tuning and without substantial improvement, when the message that ought to be delivered is how very difficult such a goal is to achieve and how much more knowledge and hard work are needed to get there.
It is an unfortunate reality that the average man heaps limitless praise on a woman that reaches even "C+" level, not realizing that such a player surely needs five games on the wire going to nine to have even action with a Karen Corr or an Allison Fisher.
Of course, the women are to blame for all this just for being so lovely! That's why us guys are so quick to patronize them. Shame on us!
Nonetheless, if one is to accept the "numbers" argument in full, one must buy into the notion that if as many women played the game as men and they practiced just as hard as men (allow me to take the break out of the equation for a moment), about 50% of the top players would be female. I can't buy into that ... at least not yet.
Rather than recounting the superb points already made in this thread, I'll consider another angle.
One thing that I truly believe holds many women back is all the inaccurate feedback they get about their games from men. I'll bet every woman that's ever reached the WPBA's #25 ranking has been told at least once that cracking the Top 10 was something they could achieve with a little fine tuning and without substantial improvement, when the message that ought to be delivered is how very difficult such a goal is to achieve and how much more knowledge and hard work are needed to get there.
It is an unfortunate reality that the average man heaps limitless praise on a woman that reaches even "C+" level, not realizing that such a player surely needs five games on the wire going to nine to have even action with a Karen Corr or an Allison Fisher.
Of course, the women are to blame for all this just for being so lovely! That's why us guys are so quick to patronize them. Shame on us!
sjm said:
Interesting theory but it assumes that women are inherently nieve. Some are, but of course so are some men. So we end up even once more.
pokerhammer
Banned
I think its just that guys are better than girls at any sport. Its part genetics, part heart and passion, and part mental. Men just exhibit these more so than women. You can't make a person be competitive, either he/she is or isn't and far more "he's" are very competitive compared to the "she's".
I believe it's because of testosterone which men have more of -- it's what gives them their killer instinct. True, some women posses this instinct also but as a rule it is a male trait.
Pool halls can be an intimidating and hostile environment for women, especially attractive ones. Personally, I'd rather go shopping than go to a pool room -- only kidding!
Pool halls can be an intimidating and hostile environment for women, especially attractive ones. Personally, I'd rather go shopping than go to a pool room -- only kidding!
sjm said:
Honestly, I agree with you wholeheartedly. Pure numbers are a part of it, but even in cases where I see absolute beginners in both men and women, it isn't long before you see a disparity in the ability. Excellent pool is more than being lucky enough to have some positive genetic mutation that allows one to be a billiard prodigy (as would likely to occur in larger populations). Society is a factor. From what I've observed, society feeds a woman's ego much more than a comparable man. Inflated ego certainly isn't going to encourage a burning desire for further improvement! Let's face it...our desires to improve are to feed our egos... doesn't that feel good? And yes, physical and mental differences play a role. There I go babbling again...
pokerhammer said:
This doesnt explain why women do well in poker tournaments. Or do you think that the luck factor kicks in when their heart, passion and competitiveness gives out.
I know lots of women that are competitive, that hate to lose. Part of the problem is that we are still a male dominated society, and although we edging closer towards equality we are no where near there. Alot of Women still have the "I just want to beat the boys mentality". Girls need to be taught that no matter what the discipline women are not inferior.
Here is an excerpt from an article I found online. The link is below. I think this answers the question.
One of the most interesting differences appear in the way men and women estimate time, judge speed of things, carry out mental mathematical calculations, orient in space and visualize objects in three dimensions, etc. In all these tasks, women and men are strikingly different, as they are too in the way their brains process language. This may account, scientists say, for the fact that there are many more male mathematicians, airplane pilots, bush guides, mechanical engineers, architects and race car drivers than female ones.
On the other hand, women are better than men in human relations, recognizing emotional overtones in others and in language, emotional and artistic expressiveness, esthetic appreciation, verbal language and carrying out detailed and pre-planned tasks. For example, women generally can recall lists of words or paragraphs of text better than men (13).
The "father" of sociobiology, Edward O. Wilson, of Harvard University (10), said that human females tend to be higher than males in empathy, verbal skills, social skills and security-seeking, among other things, while men tend to be higher in independence, dominance, spatial and mathematical skills, rank-related aggression, and other characteristics.
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html
One of the most interesting differences appear in the way men and women estimate time, judge speed of things, carry out mental mathematical calculations, orient in space and visualize objects in three dimensions, etc. In all these tasks, women and men are strikingly different, as they are too in the way their brains process language. This may account, scientists say, for the fact that there are many more male mathematicians, airplane pilots, bush guides, mechanical engineers, architects and race car drivers than female ones.
On the other hand, women are better than men in human relations, recognizing emotional overtones in others and in language, emotional and artistic expressiveness, esthetic appreciation, verbal language and carrying out detailed and pre-planned tasks. For example, women generally can recall lists of words or paragraphs of text better than men (13).
The "father" of sociobiology, Edward O. Wilson, of Harvard University (10), said that human females tend to be higher than males in empathy, verbal skills, social skills and security-seeking, among other things, while men tend to be higher in independence, dominance, spatial and mathematical skills, rank-related aggression, and other characteristics.
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html
Godfather
Out of the racket
Are you Serious?!
Most people understand that women are not inferior as human beings or in 'God's eyes,' however you want to put it. To make a claim that women are just as capable as men at excelling at ANY discipline is ludicrous. In sports, in general, there is no comparison. There are physical and physiological differences. The physical ones are obvious and the book is still out a little on the psychological ones. It's a proven fact that men and women use different parts of their brains to solve the same problems, so we obviously think differently. There may be areas in which this gives women an advantage, but sports is not one of them.
Cameron Smith said:
Most people understand that women are not inferior as human beings or in 'God's eyes,' however you want to put it. To make a claim that women are just as capable as men at excelling at ANY discipline is ludicrous. In sports, in general, there is no comparison. There are physical and physiological differences. The physical ones are obvious and the book is still out a little on the psychological ones. It's a proven fact that men and women use different parts of their brains to solve the same problems, so we obviously think differently. There may be areas in which this gives women an advantage, but sports is not one of them.
Are men really better than women
I for one am not so sure. Look at the breakthroughs women are making in other sports in head to head competition against men. Their day is coming.
I say there is no mental or physical reason why a woman can't play pool as good as a man. There are probably more good men players than women only because so many more men are playing.
I can remember when Jean Balukas started playing in men's events in the 80's. I watched her beat among others Mike Lebron (reigning U.S. Open champ at the time, Keith, Buddy and many other top men players. She began to do so well that several men either refused to play her or play in events she was entered in. This included more than one current member of the HOF.
My belief is that if the top 10-20 women played regularly against the men over a long enough period of time (maybe a year or two on an integrated tour - the IPT?), you will see women making breakthroughs and perhaps even winning. Excuse me but hasn't Karen already won events on the very tough Joss Tour.
Like all of you, I still think the world's best players are people like Johnny,
Ralf, Earl, Mika, Thorsten and about a dozen filipinos. But somewhere out there may be some young girl who aspires to play on the WPBA, and doesn't know she isn't supposed to be as good as a man at Pool. And you know what, she may be right!
I see some amazingly talented young women on that tour right now, only lacking in experience. Pool is the most likely sport where men and women can compete on equal terms, with no handicaps whatsoever, and for that reason may yet become quite popular as a spectator sport. KT is on the right track.
I for one am not so sure. Look at the breakthroughs women are making in other sports in head to head competition against men. Their day is coming.
I say there is no mental or physical reason why a woman can't play pool as good as a man. There are probably more good men players than women only because so many more men are playing.
I can remember when Jean Balukas started playing in men's events in the 80's. I watched her beat among others Mike Lebron (reigning U.S. Open champ at the time, Keith, Buddy and many other top men players. She began to do so well that several men either refused to play her or play in events she was entered in. This included more than one current member of the HOF.
My belief is that if the top 10-20 women played regularly against the men over a long enough period of time (maybe a year or two on an integrated tour - the IPT?), you will see women making breakthroughs and perhaps even winning. Excuse me but hasn't Karen already won events on the very tough Joss Tour.
Like all of you, I still think the world's best players are people like Johnny,
Ralf, Earl, Mika, Thorsten and about a dozen filipinos. But somewhere out there may be some young girl who aspires to play on the WPBA, and doesn't know she isn't supposed to be as good as a man at Pool. And you know what, she may be right!
I see some amazingly talented young women on that tour right now, only lacking in experience. Pool is the most likely sport where men and women can compete on equal terms, with no handicaps whatsoever, and for that reason may yet become quite popular as a spectator sport. KT is on the right track.
Godfather
Out of the racket
What breakthroughs in other sports are you talking about, Jay? I agree that women have a much better chance of playing even with men in a sport or game like pool, chess, bowling or something where the physical differences are mitigated. I was merely responding to the post that they could be equal in any discipline. I can't imagine a woman beating the male world record holder in, say, a foot race.
Godfather said:
The breakthroughs I'm talking about is the fact that they are starting to compete on equal terms, in golf tournaments for instance. And Danica Patrick in racing has opened everyones eyes. I know they haven't done that well yet, but they are up to the challenge, and that bodes well for the future. Who knows how good Michelle Wie is going to be?
My point is that Pool is unique among sports in that we may see a woman champion far sooner than in other sports. Hell, for all we know, men may be the inferior sex in another hundred years in all sports.
I remember as a young man, we would never see a lady police officer or heaven forbid, a woman in the military. As someone once said, "The times, they are a changin'." If you don't recognize that son, you haven't been paying attention.
Godfather
Out of the racket
jay helfert said:
OK, Jay, I concede your points. I will still maintain there are some sports that they can't physically catch up. They have shown that women are incapable of developing equal upper body strength to men and that would make a difference in many sports. My very first post in this thread, states that I believe the discrepancy in pool to be mostly a social issue. And I have been paying attention a little, dad.
rackmsuckr said:Maybe it's a male's innate confidence, the swagger, the 'cock of the walk', while we females are just 'chicken'!
Absolutely great picture!!!!
Personally, I'm sick of this topic. It has been beat to death in the past. Anybody interested can probably find my opinion in the old threads somewhere.
Stress
I've wondered myself why women have not reached comparable levels to men in pool. There really isn't any physical reason, with the possible exception of men being physically stronger, which could have an impact on breaking.
But when you get right down to it, the average female pro does not play position as well or play patterns as well as the top male players, nor do they handle stress as well. Allison is the notable exception. Her patterns and position play are superb and she is very cool under pressure.
So I think part of the difference is simply excecution and part it is creative vision, or conceptualizing geometric possibilities.
Now why this should be different escapes me. It's not that men are inherently stronger, smarter, more predatory, or any of the other commonly offered reasons.
I think the biggest reason, at least what I have observed most frequently, is how females and males differ in the processing of stress. Women tend to react more emotionally to stress, or more specifically--distress. Men tend to grit and bear it. That's what we're trained to do. Males are expected to "get it done."
Consider how we males might react to a male friend or teammate missing the 9 because of poor position on the 8. We don't tend to offer condolences, or if we do, it's pretty contrite. More often, we're saying or at least thinking, 'Well, you shouldn't have screwed up position on the 8.'
Women are far more empathic. They will attempt to soothe another woman's feelings. Males, if we offer anything more than "too bad," or "tough luck," will suggest how to fix it so it doesn't happen again.
What is boils down to is, women are soothers by nature; men are fixers. I think men feel compelled to find solutions because failing is not acceptable. Women soothe so that their counterparts don't feel bad.
Essentially, it is analytical thinking verses emotional thinking. Males tend to block out emotions and use analysis to solve problems; women tend to embrace emotions, which interfers with analytical problem solving.
I've wondered myself why women have not reached comparable levels to men in pool. There really isn't any physical reason, with the possible exception of men being physically stronger, which could have an impact on breaking.
But when you get right down to it, the average female pro does not play position as well or play patterns as well as the top male players, nor do they handle stress as well. Allison is the notable exception. Her patterns and position play are superb and she is very cool under pressure.
So I think part of the difference is simply excecution and part it is creative vision, or conceptualizing geometric possibilities.
Now why this should be different escapes me. It's not that men are inherently stronger, smarter, more predatory, or any of the other commonly offered reasons.
I think the biggest reason, at least what I have observed most frequently, is how females and males differ in the processing of stress. Women tend to react more emotionally to stress, or more specifically--distress. Men tend to grit and bear it. That's what we're trained to do. Males are expected to "get it done."
Consider how we males might react to a male friend or teammate missing the 9 because of poor position on the 8. We don't tend to offer condolences, or if we do, it's pretty contrite. More often, we're saying or at least thinking, 'Well, you shouldn't have screwed up position on the 8.'
Women are far more empathic. They will attempt to soothe another woman's feelings. Males, if we offer anything more than "too bad," or "tough luck," will suggest how to fix it so it doesn't happen again.
What is boils down to is, women are soothers by nature; men are fixers. I think men feel compelled to find solutions because failing is not acceptable. Women soothe so that their counterparts don't feel bad.
Essentially, it is analytical thinking verses emotional thinking. Males tend to block out emotions and use analysis to solve problems; women tend to embrace emotions, which interfers with analytical problem solving.
I think as far as it goes really its all a guess. I believe that women do not play pool as good as men - exceptions Allison Fisher - Karen Corr - Ga Young Kim - I think any of the three could hold up in any male race to 7 or 11. Honestly av race to 7 or 11 can swing one way or the next at any given second. A night of 10 hour money on the line pressure one on one gamble action I dont think they could hold up. They just dont do it. THERE is the real answer to the question of women vs men, i think.