Woodward questionable foul European open

iusedtoberich said:
Would a fouetté shot have worked here? I can’t really tell the angle.
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Not necessary. He could have angled the hit more toward the tangent line (and used more speed); although, the CB would have gone flying (but that's better than a foul). He could have also played a safety, even just a containing safety (also better than a foul). A fouetté shot is more for trick shot exhibitions; and it is very difficult to avoid a foul, even with a good stroke. See:

 
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I’ve seen that video before. You show it’s probably a foul, but also note it’s legal under all legit rules (from memory). I used it once in a 9 ball game that I can recall years ago.


dr_dave said:
Not necessary. He could have angled the hit more toward the tangent line (and used more speed); although, the CB would have gone flying (but that's better than a foul). He could have also played a safety, even just a containing safety (also better than a foul). A fouetté shot is more for trick shot exhibitions, and it is very difficult to avoid a foul, even with a good stroke. See:

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iusedtoberich said:
I’ve seen that video before. You show it’s probably a foul, but also note it’s legal under all legit rules (from memory). I used it once in a 9 ball game that I can recall years ago.
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I don't think I've ever seen a pro pool player use a fouetté shot in an actual match. Has anybody? If so, please post a link if it is available.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I don't think he tried to cheat.
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Agreed. He thought the call was wrong because he didn’t know that type of shot is a foul; otherwise, he probably would have chosen a different shot. He wouldn’t take a chance, hoping the ref wouldn’t call it.
 
jason said:
I'm probably wrong in my analysis now that I think about it. You are probably closer to being correct. He wouldn't have shot that way knowing the gap. Like Dave said, it was impossible and Sky would have known. BTW what is the Derby rule in this case? Odd situation for a pro for sure. I would be curious to know what his line of thinking was.
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The rules for the Derby City Classic are online. Here's the relevant rule.

Double Hits, Push Shots, and Miscues
Object balls frozen to the cue ball or very close to the cue ball, require you to elevate the cue approximately 45 degrees to stroke the shot. This will be considered a legal shot even though a double hit may occur. Even with an elevated cue, you cannot place the cue tip on the cue ball and shove it forward or it will be called a push shot and result in a foul.
An unintentional miscue is not a foul. An intentional miscue is a foul. The decision of the referee is final.
 
dr_dave said:
Agreed. He thought the call was wrong because he didn’t know that type of shot is a foul; otherwise, he probably would have chosen a different shot. He wouldn’t take a chance, hoping the ref wouldn’t call it.
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You really think Sky doesn’t know this type of shot is a foul? Come on!

If he was a 70’s era player I’d say it’s possible. I played a couple in the late 90’s and I called fouls on them like this and they looked at me like I was nuts. I was playing one guy $100 per game backpocket and he fouled and I said foul and he said no way. Set up the shot again and we kept disagreeing. Then a few older guys on the rail said that’s how they used to play then. And all the younger guys said blatent foul. We quit.

Sky came up in the 2010’s. When every C player knew that the CB going forward is a foul.

Edit, and my situation was a head on shot, where the cb went straight forward.
 
I was hill hill in a one pocket game last week, and won the set on 3 fouls! It was a near thing, since the final foul was very similar to the Skylar situation.
My opponent had a very slight gap and jacked up to draw the cue ball away, but it squirted forward quite a ways before finally reversing a bit. He thought it was good, and I referred him to Mr. Jewett and Dr. Dave's comments on this thread. We also did some slo mo recording of a similar shot and I showed him how the cue ball reacts with a good hit. To his credit, he accepted the facts. I sent him Dr. Dave's new video on the subject and he appreciated it. As do I. Thanks to Mr. Jewett and to Dr. Dave! Expect another donation to your paypal very soon. :love:
 
Sheldon said:
I was hill hill in a one pocket game last week, and won the set on 3 fouls! It was a near thing, since the final foul was very similar to the Skylar situation.
My opponent had a very slight gap and jacked up to draw the cue ball away, but it squirted forward quite a ways before finally reversing a bit. He thought it was good, and I referred him to Mr. Jewett and Dr. Dave's comments on this thread. We also did some slo mo recording of a similar shot and I showed him how the cue ball reacts with a good hit. To his credit, he accepted the facts. I sent him Dr. Dave's new video on the subject and he appreciated it. As do I. Thanks to Mr. Jewett and to Dr. Dave! Expect another donation to your paypal very soon. :love:
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I'm glad the video was timely and helpful for you and your opponent.
 
dr_dave said:
I'm glad the video was timely and helpful for you and your opponent.
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The one I showed him at the time was the fouls in pool video. The new one just cemented everything afterwards. I really hate thinking that anyone believes I argued something without knowing I was correct. I often overlook these kinds of fouls just to avoid argument, but in this case it was a friend and I wanted him to know the facts! He even mentioned being involved in online discussion about Skylar's shot and he had argued that it was not a foul, and got a bunch of "likes" because of it. Again, I give him credit for changing his mind when presented with the facts. It seems like it has become easier and easier for people to reject facts these days.
 
Sheldon said:
The one I showed him at the time was the fouls in pool video. The new one just cemented everything afterwards. I really hate thinking that anyone believes I argued something without knowing I was correct. I often overlook these kinds of fouls just to avoid argument, but in this case it was a friend and I wanted him to know the facts! He even mentioned being involved in online discussion about Skylar's shot and he had argued that it was not a foul, and got a bunch of "likes" because of it. Again, I give him credit for changing his mind when presented with the facts. It seems like it has become easier and easier for people to reject facts these days.
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I'm glad to hear it. We need more open-minded people like him in this world.
 
iusedtoberich said:
I’ve seen that video before. You show it’s probably a foul, but also note it’s legal under all legit rules (from memory). I used it once in a 9 ball game that I can recall years ago.
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Let me fix it for you, it’s illegal under all legitimate rules. Only legal under fake rules like Derby and some leagues to keep the fighting to a minimum.
 
Bob Jewett said:
It has become commonplace to double down on unimaginably wrong beliefs and statements. I guess you're just trying to keep up. Congratulations. 👍
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How am I wrong? just because DrDave says so? he's wrong how about that, he's doubling down on unimaginably wrong beliefs. Have you ever thought about that?
 
smoochie said:
How am I wrong? just because DrDave says so? he's wrong how about that, he's doubling down on unimaginably wrong beliefs. Have you ever thought about that?
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it's a bit different to "say something" and explain something backed up with research and super slowmotion videos.

Detecting and Avoiding Double-Hit Fouls - Dr. Dave Pool Info

Answers to frequently-asked questions about how to detect and avoid double hit fouls in pool.
billiards.colostate.edu billiards.colostate.edu
 
smoochie said:
How am I wrong? just because DrDave says so? he's wrong how about that, he's doubling down on unimaginably wrong beliefs. Have you ever thought about that?
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You’re funny … like a clown. 🤮

Actually, it is quite sad that a top American player could possibly think that shot could work. Anybody with even a basic understanding of pool rules and pool physics knew that shot would be a foul before he even shot it. That’s why experienced
professional referee Marcel was able to make the call so quickly and so confidently. And as soon as Sky hit the shot, it was blatantly obvious the shot was a foul, as my video clearly points out. You and others can believe what you want, but the facts are the facts. “Alternative facts,” opinions, and emotions don’t have a place in pool rule judgements.
 
dr_dave said:
You’re funny … like a clown. 🤮

Actually, it is quite sad that a top American player could possibly think that shot could work. Anybody with even a basic understanding of pool rules and pool physics knew that shot would be a foul before he even shot it. That’s why experienced
professional referee Marcel was able to make the call so quickly and so confidently. And as soon as Sky hit the shot, it was blatantly obvious the shot was a foul, as my video clearly points out. You and others can believe what you want, but the facts are the facts. “Alternative facts,” opinions, and emotions don’t have a place in pool rule judgements.
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You're dealing with the same person who thinks that tighter pockets makes matches closer and gives hope to lesser skilled players. I don't put stock in one word he says to be honest.
 
dr_dave said:
I think it is embarrassing that the US still has a tournament that uses the antiquated 45 degree rule. This video summarizes why:


Even the VNEA got rid of the rule recently; so now even all league systems penalize double hit and related fouls when they occur (regardless of the angle of the cue).
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I never understood this rule. I had always taken the 45 degree rule to mean that you had to be shooting away from the object ball by at least 45 degrees, not that you had to jack up 45 degrees. What good does anyone think jacking up does in a case like this??
 
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