World 10 Ball Silence

Meezer Girl said:
Even if the players do get paid "eventually" (not acceptable) I really do hope that this fiasco creates a huge "wake up call" to the players. They really do need some kind of organization where they can have a voice in making sure that tournaments are organized and run properly and also when they are run to eleviate scheduling conflicts for the larger events.

Obviously there are many other benefits that could be available but let's get started with the events first.

Fran
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Fran, if the players aren't willing to protect themselves then who else will do it? After the IPT much anger was expressed by fans on behalf of the players. Nothing came of it. NOTHING.

The players wouldn't go against the IPT publicly because they still wanted and needed to get paid. The IPT strung them along for a year or so on that payment.

I just don't get it. Why is it so hard for the players worldwide, as a group, to agree to NOT play in events where the money is not 100% in escrow up front.

If tournaments were "sanctioned" this way where it was known by all that the prize fund was 100% secure then tournaments would end up with waiting lists to get in.

Beyond that the players could then demand and get spots based on the criteria that they, the players, deem important.

In this day and age of instant communication and universal access to the web there is NO EXCUSE for the world's top pool players to be fragmented and treated like serfs.

But NO ONE is going to help them for free. NO ONE. They are professionals who make money for playing a game. They should be willing to stand up and offer part of their income and time to create and run an organization that truly protects their interests. Such an organization would ultimately provide the world's professional pool players with a solid and steady stream of income that is only limited to each individual's ability to earn from it.

But if they continue to allow promoters and organizations to dictate what they can do, who can play and who can't, what rules will be used, and so on, then they deserve to be treated like second rate citizens.
 
That's the reason why we now have the BMPAP. Players just want to concentrate on their playing and most of the time have inadequate knowledge when it comes to business.

We are lucky here because we have the unique relationship of Managed teams where the owners are long time practitioners who really appreciate the game and society within it. The owners too are highly-educated and savvy businessmen who have gained the trust and respect of the the players. And even though they're all in the higher level of society they are not isolated from but rather easily accessible and are friends to the players.

This player-manager relationship is beneficial to the player. An example, Dennis is currently in car shopping mode wanting to replace his Mazda3 sedan with an SUV to address the need of his growing family. He and his wife shopped around all day yesterday visiting different delers to check out different makes. They final found one they like, a Mitsubishi SUV, and have gotten the best price they can. Still he opts for feedback from friends. Aware that he will be picking up his travel, to the Guinness Tour, documents last night he knew that he'll get the feedback. Lo and behold, Perry knows the owner of the Dealership and Dennis will most likely get a bigger discount.

Certain conditions need to be met before such, as you've described, can become successful and lucky for us we have those here.
 
Why don't one of you high finance millionaires start a tournament escrow service? This would be the collection point for promoters to deposit the prize fund and the disbursement point for the players.

If the players all had a consistent method of payment that they knew going in was 100% secure then that would solve all these issues once and for all.

I don't know how escrow works or who would handle it. To me the logistics of "guranteed" prize funds is always suspect. Who gurantees it? How is it guranteed?

If I want to purchase something and my supplier requires a letter of credit then that is a gurantee from my bank to my supplier that they will get paid if they fulfill the order correctly.

How does one gurantee a prize fund? Do you go to your bank and tell them to lock up $400,000 and pay it out only to those who show up with a check drawn on the escrow account?

It seems to me that wire transfers would be the safest way to go. From a trusted source. As far as the fees and associated costs I would think that those would be on the promoter as a cost of doing business.
 
bandido said:
That's the reason why we now have the BMPAP. Players just want to concentrate on their playing and most of the time have inadequate knowledge when it comes to business.

We are lucky here because we have the unique relationship of Managed teams where the owners are long time practitioners who really appreciate the game and society within it. The owners too are highly-educated and savvy businessmen who have gained the trust and respect of the the players. And even though they're all in the higher level of society they are not isolated from but rather easily accessible and are friends to the players.

This player-manager relationship is beneficial to the player. An example, Dennis is currently in car shopping mode wanting to replace his Mazda3 sedan with an SUV to address the need of his growing family. He and his wife shopped around all day yesterday visiting different delers to check out different makes. They final found one they like, a Mitsubishi SUV, and have gotten the best price they can. Still he opts for feedback from friends. Aware that he will be picking up his travel, to the Guinness Tour, documents last night he knew that he'll get the feedback. Lo and behold, Perry knows the owner of the Dealership and Dennis will most likely get a bigger discount.

Certain conditions need to be met before such, as you've described, can become successful and lucky for us we have those here.
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Of course a manager/sponsor relationship can be symbiotic. Sterling, and specifically, Scott Taylor, did many things for players that were helpful to them in their daily lives, co-signed on car loans, paid rent, provided housing and so on.

Having a support structure is very important and is another step. I wasn't talking about an organization to babysit the players as a manager/sponsor often does.

I am talking about a PURE player organization that is democratic and works for the interests of ALL players, not just specific ones who are managed or owned by a few individuals.

The ONLY thing that this player organization would have as it's mandate is to insure that tournaments it sanctions are 100% secure and run to professional standards, those standards being determined by the professionals themselves.

Only such a worldwide organization will have the clout to bring promoters to the table in a way that protects the interests of both sides.
 
JB Cases said:
Of course a manager/sponsor relationship can be symbiotic. Sterling, and specifically, Scott Taylor, did many things for players that were helpful to them in their daily lives, co-signed on car loans, paid rent, provided housing and so on.

Having a support structure is very important and is another step. I wasn't talking about an organization to babysit the players as a manager/sponsor often does.

I am talking about a PURE player organization that is democratic and works for the interests of ALL players, not just specific ones who are managed or owned by a few individuals.

The ONLY thing that this player organization would have as it's mandate is to insure that tournaments it sanctions are 100% secure and run to professional standards, those standards being determined by the professionals themselves.

Only such a worldwide organization will have the clout to bring promoters to the table in a way that protects the interests of both sides.
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I'm not sure if I recall right but wasn't something like you've describe been formed before. Weren't there difficulties because the players that ran the org, and other members, started considering themselves like pro athlete from other more popular "goldmine" sports.

Like I said I have very little knowledge about that org so please educate me.
 
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bandido said:
I'm not sure if I recall right but wasn't something like you've describe been formed before. Weren't there difficulties because the players that ran the org, and other members, started considering themselves like pro athlete from other more popular "goldmine" sports.

Like I said I have very little knowledge about that org so please educate me.
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Perhaps you are referring to the PBTA. In that instance there was a Makebenta/Trudeau like personality who assumed control of the organization and did in fact try to negotiate as if pool had more clout than it does.

In fact there have been several organizations that have started with the idea of being a players organization and they have all failed primarily through lack of support from the players, in my view.

When a promoter comes along with a big carrot it's hard for individual players to refuse him and make him adhere to strict policies governing the event he wants to put on. Thus it's quite a catch-22 situation for any organization who wishes to be strong.

I have said that IF the world's top players would get together and pledge to go out and earn the seed money, through exhibitions, coaching, tournament winnings, and would devote just a fraction of their income for one year, then there would be enough money to start this organization.
 
better to call it a pool exhibition charity event rather than call it a championship if those players didn't got paid after two weeks notice.
 
JB Cases said:
Of course a manager/sponsor relationship can be symbiotic. Sterling, and specifically, Scott Taylor, did many things for players that were helpful to them in their daily lives, co-signed on car loans, paid rent, provided housing and so on.

Having a support structure is very important and is another step. I wasn't talking about an organization to babysit the players as a manager/sponsor often does.

I am talking about a PURE player organization that is democratic and works for the interests of ALL players, not just specific ones who are managed or owned by a few individuals.

The ONLY thing that this player organization would have as it's mandate is to insure that tournaments it sanctions are 100% secure and run to professional standards, those standards being determined by the professionals themselves.

Only such a worldwide organization will have the clout to bring promoters to the table in a way that protects the interests of both sides.
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Pardon me for causing the mix-up by relating the story about dennis and his SUV search. There is a manager/players relationship and then the umbrella organization which binds all these players/managers as one and that's the BMPAP. We do as you've described hoping to happen but still in a local level. International is not far of and currently being discussed.
 
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bandido said:
Pardon me for causing the mix-up by relating the story about dennis and his SUV search. There is a manager/players relationship and then the umbrella organization which binds all these players/managers as one and that's the BMPAP. We do as you've described hoping to happen but still in a local level. International is not far of and currently being discussed.
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I wish you and your organization true success. And I hope you come up with an easier to remember acronym for the world wide organization. It would be great if you can make it reality.
 
JB Cases said:
I wish you and your organization true success. And I hope you come up with an easier to remember acronym for the world wide organization. It would be great if you can make it reality.
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LOL!! regarding the acronym! As long as you stay around offering your intelligence and criticism then maybe we all can make it happen.
 
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JB Cases said:
I have said that IF the world's top players would get together and pledge to go out and earn the seed money, through exhibitions, coaching, tournament winnings, and would devote just a fraction of their income for one year, then there would be enough money to start this organization.
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John, to make this thing work to a professional standard would require a substantial investment. The luxurious PGA offices in West Palm Beach define golf as a sport and I have no doubt that Tennis has a similar setup. But pool is still being run from a kitchen table set up.

If 250 players were asked to pony up $1000 each to ensure the sport's future would anybody be killed in the rush. And who would they trust with so many 'fly by night' people who have impacted on the game.

But even if the money gets paid there will still be a need for this player organisation to push through. Otherwise, Serfs to use your word, they will remain.
 
bandido said:
No one is hoping that they don't pay because we already suspected that from the start and thus the reason for the noise from us. Big difference! Since non-payment has always been suspected then all we can do is hope that they do pay. No need to hope that they don't pay because they didn't when they should have, yesterday.

I hope that you can grasp the logic.
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What I am GRASPING BAN-DOO-DOO is that you are a liar. You only care about yourself and you would be happy as a pig in sh-- if the players didnt get paid. Why dont you stop lying and just say the truth. You are a gangster and nothing more. Your people remind me of fight managers whove got their fighters so locked up they cant get out and you want to do this with the rest of the players in your country. You are a joke if you think the rest of us cant see through you. I dont live in your country. You couldnt pay me to. I know enough of the players to know what they are saying about you.
 
i wouldn't waste my time to respond to pooldawg edwin and gopi... obviously he just showed up here and lacks the civility and shows their real nature
 
pooldawg85 said:
What I am GRASPING BAN-DOO-DOO is that you are a liar. You only care about yourself and you would be happy as a pig in sh-- if the players didnt get paid. Why dont you stop lying and just say the truth. You are a gangster and nothing more. Your people remind me of fight managers whove got their fighters so locked up they cant get out and you want to do this with the rest of the players in your country. You are a joke if you think the rest of us cant see through you. I dont live in your country. You couldnt pay me to. I know enough of the players to know what they are saying about you.
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Time to turn the other cheek!
 
Funny thing is, we did offer them to take over all that we offer to all of the players and they can have all the players. Guess what? All they want is to use the players in their events and leave all the responsibilities, in maintaining the players, with us. :eek: :rolleyes: :nanner:
 
pooldawg85 said:
What I am GRASPING BAN-DOO-DOO is that you are a liar. You only care about yourself and you would be happy as a pig in sh-- if the players didnt get paid. Why dont you stop lying and just say the truth. You are a gangster and nothing more. Your people remind me of fight managers whove got their fighters so locked up they cant get out and you want to do this with the rest of the players in your country. You are a joke if you think the rest of us cant see through you. I dont live in your country. You couldnt pay me to. I know enough of the players to know what they are saying about you.
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damn dawg, chill ! are you a woman scorned? :grin: :grin: :grin:

by the way, what can you say about Darren's situation? are you happy or sad for him? what do you think that he and other participated players must do?

point here is we are talking about the players situation here and our feelings towards them and the organizers/promoters of the much highly praised WTB championship.

your personal grudge against Bandido here has no merit of the situation in the WTB whatsoever. nor will it change the fact or topic that most players haven't been paid yet, eventhough the promoters said that they will get their prize monies after 2 weeks as they were promised.


anyway, I would welcome anything you have in mind regarding the WTB issue. you could praise RAYA for all I care for the delayed payments (if those payments will ever be made). but as of the moment, RAYA has to reap what it has sown.

*you don't get crucified for doing a good deed* you can leave Jesus and company out of this. they dont do monkey business. :grin:
 
It seems odd for AZB to still have the two articles on the home page by Yen Makabenta but nothing about the apparently missing prize purse in the news section.

Mike, any chance of putting something up there? Or is this not considered news until there is some kind of official statement about the issue? Perhaps you can contact Mr. Makabenta for an interview?
 
AuntyDan said:
It seems odd for AZB to still have the two articles on the home page by Yen Makabenta but nothing about the apparently missing prize purse in the news section.

Mike, any chance of putting something up there? Or is this not considered news until there is some kind of official statement about the issue? Perhaps you can contact Mr. Makabenta for an interview?
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it is really odd. honestly, when a disturbing issue and supposed rumor like this comes out into the open, YEN would be first to produce a public statement a day after. I dont think that this is not a big deal, especially when money and integrity is involved.
 
been busy at work today - jumping in late

JB Cases said:
Fran, if the players aren't willing to protect themselves then who else will do it? After the IPT much anger was expressed by fans on behalf of the players. Nothing came of it. NOTHING.

The players wouldn't go against the IPT publicly because they still wanted and needed to get paid. The IPT strung them along for a year or so on that payment.

I just don't get it. Why is it so hard for the players worldwide, as a group, to agree to NOT play in events where the money is not 100% in escrow up front.

If tournaments were "sanctioned" this way where it was known by all that the prize fund was 100% secure then tournaments would end up with waiting lists to get in.

Beyond that the players could then demand and get spots based on the criteria that they, the players, deem important.

In this day and age of instant communication and universal access to the web there is NO EXCUSE for the world's top pool players to be fragmented and treated like serfs.

But NO ONE is going to help them for free. NO ONE. They are professionals who make money for playing a game. They should be willing to stand up and offer part of their income and time to create and run an organization that truly protects their interests. Such an organization would ultimately provide the world's professional pool players with a solid and steady stream of income that is only limited to each individual's ability to earn from it.

But if they continue to allow promoters and organizations to dictate what they can do, who can play and who can't, what rules will be used, and so on, then they deserve to be treated like second rate citizens.
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The IPT situation is exactly what I was thinking of and hoping that this time the players would re-think their options. Something like a Union maybe.

I do know that there are people in the pool world that CAN be trusted to take the players side. Mark Griffin comes to mind but I don't think he even has 5 minutes left over per day.

Escrow is not complicated (I am in the commercial loan industry) just a matter of finding an experienced escrow officer and there are many.

I don't have the answers either but I really wish that the PLAYERS would please get together with some assistance and come up with something workable for everybody.

We fans just feel so helpless and wish there was something that we could add to the solution.
 
Post from Jay Helfert.


Originally Posted by jay helfert
Misc. ramblings from the Open:

More strong filipino players here than in Manila! Van Corteza, Django, Gallego, Alcano, Kiamco and Luat. And this tournament is 9,000 miles away! Jonathan Sy brought many of these guys over here, and is putting them in action nightly at Q Master. Orcollo is playing on the Guinness Tour in Asia right now. That's why he isn't here. And Efren is sick at home we are told.

A shame that one of the main topics of conversation is about the recent World Ten Ball and will the players get paid. Many of these players are here and beginning to get antsy. I feel bad right now for Darren Appleton who is owed $100,000. I'm praying for him, one of the truly good guys in pool. A very strong European contingent is here, and I look for one of them to be there at the end.

Many good Asian players in the field, but none from Chinese Taipei. Maybe it's because of the Guinness Tour, but who knows. EVERYONE wants to see Wu over here, including me. I tell everyone he may be the best player on Earth today. We are working on a Challenge Match between reigning World Cup champs SVB and Rodney vs. either a team from Taipei, the Philippines or Great Britain. It will be held at next years DCC. Will keep you posted on this one, when it is set.

Good action nightly at Q Master. Two nights ago, Matt Clatterbuck beat Ronnie Wiseman in a 12 Ahead, Ten Ball match in a little over two hours. He won $7,000 and HE GOT PAID! Last night Donnie Mills played Warren Kiamco for $3,000, a Race to 26. With the score tied 20-20 Donnie shut Warren down, running six perfect racks! Soft break, made the corner ball and left the one near the far corner pocket. Six times in a row! Never got out of line and never had to make a hard shot. He played PERF!

Big mix up the first day. Flyers had been distributed saying the players meeting was at 3 PM Sunday, with the tourney getting underway at 8 PM. That was changed to a 8 PM players meeting on Saturday (a day earlier), with play starting at 11 AM Sunday. Unfortunately some players showed up on Sunday (Santos for one) and didn't get to play. Tony Robles also came late but he just got in on time. He is rolling too, three wins over all strong players. He beat Gallego last night 11-5 and has Johnny tonight. I have no idea why this happened but I saw the flyers which clearly stated Sunday 3 PM for the players meeting. Someone dropped the ball here big time.

Consequently the field only has 236 players and not a full field of 256. A strong field nonetheless. Barry Behrman stated that he would still add $85,000. Not too shabby, only the biggest and best tourney in the USA. This is still more than the $72,000 added last year.

One final disconcerting note. You may not be aware that the IPT and Trudough never completed the promised payouts. He still owes a final payment (11%) to all the players, and more to the players from the Qualifiers. ALL players I discussed this with said they had not yet gotten the last payment. Interesting how this was swept under the rug when he started his new round or events. All may be forgiven, but is definitely not forgotten. Once a con man, always a con man is my comment on this. I still think he only paid what he did under duress and fear for his life. JMO of course.
 
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