World 10-ball

[Positively Ralf]

BTW, considering the production value of this event. I'm surprised there were no photographers there. Unless there is some social boards somewhere were pictures were shared from photographers there on the scene. Come to think of it, is pool photography even a thing?

 

[sjm]

I don’t think you understand what top heavy means. That may be where we’re having a problem at. A 400% difference in pool terms is no where near what 400% in golf is. Let alone just the actual difference and not looking at the percentage. Looking at golf, we see a clear difference between what a top heavy tournament year end winner looks like. If 50% of an overseas players tournaments a year are played on USA soil, and they win $60,000 one time. How much is their actually profit? What they can legitimately tell the government they earned for the year? Maybe $20,000? After all expenses for the year, there’s not one player claiming a full years earning more than 50% of what they’ve ‘won’. The worst pga your card holders are still earning more than some of the best pool players after expenses.

Sorry but I do not see golf, or any other major sport, as offering any guidance for pool.

Pool is a small business and needs to be run as such.

 

[garczar]

Sorry but I do not see golf, or any other major sport, as offering any guidance for pool.

Pool is a small business and needs to be run as such.

Pool and golf are on different planets. Always will be. If pros ever get to making even snooker $$ they should be tickled shitless.

 

[Jimmorrison]

There is way too much bitching going on here. Most of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves, and STFU! This was an excellent production. Top notch pool, best players in the world. You got to watch it for free. No glitches, no freezing, n o dead screen . Sure, you had to fade a few commercials, so what.

 

[leto1776]

There is way too much bitching going on here. Most of you guys should be ashamed of yourselves, and STFU! This was an excellent production. Top notch pool, best players in the world. You got to watch it for free. No glitches, no freezing, n o dead screen . Sure, you had to fade a few commercials, so what.

Welcome to AZB forums

 

[Stevexjfe]

By my recollection, and I was there, when Ray Martin won the 1978 PPPA World Championship in New York City, the first prize was $4,000. The PPPA, which folded in 1986, certainly never had an event in Europe, as it was a tour consisting chiefly of players from New York and New Jersey. There was little to no international participation in PPPA events.

Of course, I've been wrong before and will likely be wrong again very soon.

I didn't mention anything about Europe, not sure why you added that. There was some international participation in the events, a couple of Japanese players turned up for in the event in the 70s and Parica in 1978, as well as some European players in the early 80s.

 

[Hits 'em Hard]

Sorry but I do not see golf, or any other major sport, as offering any guidance for pool.

Pool is a small business and needs to be run as such.

And golf was once a small business. That got built up into the empire it is now. You’re reaching for straws to sustain your arguments. You’re not being a fan trying to build of the sport, you’re a fan trying to tear it down.

 

[straightline]

Unless I remember this wrong, Jim Mataya now sounds like one of the Fuscos right?

Ok I did remember this wrong. Mataya now sounds like Johnny Ervolino used to sound.

 

[Podunker]

Just scanned through a few of these posts. I'm far from a millennial and just a registered independent. I do think pool is finally heading in the right direction and it's reputation is vastly improving. That was a great production. Everyone is getting paid. There's no obvious dumping. Nobody is in the arena fighting with any and all that dare to make eye contact. Unlike the past, you don't have to wait for the incoming player to stub out his pall mall and shoot down his bud before chalking their cue. You can see all this on past video. I'm no choir boy. I'm not condemning anyone, just stating facts. Even the greatest pool movies are dark. Hard sell to the general public.
Look at the last 4 players in this final. All fresh, young, completely professional, respectful to opponents and all involved. They were gracious in defeat and handled victory with the same attitude. This is the base to build around. It's great to cross into celebrity interest like Joe Rogan. It all helps. This core of young exciting professional players is the answer, not some messiah. It would really help if a young USA player was involved.

Pool can't be compared to golf. Hundreds of young golfers, male and female, get scholarships every year. A few go pro, all get an education if they want. A real feeder system. They end up owning businesses and climbing in the corporate world. They have a lifetime love for the game and an affluence that allows them to stay involved. Pool players have to fight and scrap. They make it on talent alone.

All this aside. There just seems to be way more professionalism and consistency in the in the all the tournaments now. The play has been great. Not a lot of negative controversy. We have access to watch most of them in real time. I think it's heading in the right direction. It takes time to build the market. Matchroom and Predator can only grow things as fast as the income stream allows. Good luck. Be kind. If this fails pool is in real trouble forever.

 

[thoffen]

You’re in the wrong room if you want to be talking ‘top heavy’. Comparatively pool is one of the worst paying professions from a tournament earnings aspect. Look at golf. $20,000,000 purse and the winner takes home 12.5% at most of the pot. That’s your idea of what pool should be doing. But a pool tournaments total pot is only 10% of what golf has, so by your standards the winner should only be receiving $25,000 instead of $60,000. Something’s off with your idea. And I think it’s your conceptualization of how vast the differences are is the problem. A 20% of total pot payout in golf for the top 2 sounds pitifully slim, until you understand it’s a couple million. Take that same idea to pool, and who is going to show up for anything then?

If pool at $20M a tournament to throw around it would be distributed more broadly. As it is, you gotta keep the top prizes respectable. It means that only a handful of players could ever make a living on tournament winnings. There just isn't enough money to spread around.

Some organizer e.g. matchroom needs to learn how to squeeze some money out of things. It isn't going to be from PPV, youtube advertisements, or billiards products. But that's not exactly unique in the sports world. Look at Tennis for example. Millions of dollars there, and very little comes from tennis balls/racket advertisement. It's big brands like Rolex and Mercedes etc. who stick their name on things that are prestigious to promote their brand image. I imagine the value proposition for whatever they might expect from generating sales isn't even worth what they funnel in to the sport. Yet there are plenty of brands whose public perception is worth more than gold to them. I think there's enough viewership in pool to go after those targets. I think they can overcome the seedy reputation of the past to land a reasonable sponsor.

If it were me in that job Rolex would actually be my ideal target. Lots of players wear watches in their matches. Easy to get people to associate Rolex with high level competitiveness. The brand has used that formula for ages to make everyone who knows diddly about watches to think they are the undisputed kings of the watchmaking world. Even though only a tiny fraction would ever actually buy one, that reputation keeps the demand super strong.

 

[jasonlaus]

Anybody else notice that had SVB won his quarter-final match, it would have been the world's top 4 Fargo Ratings as the final 4?

That's why I laugh at everybody that bashes Fargo

 

[sjm]

And golf was once a small business. That got built up into the empire it is now. You’re reaching for straws to sustain your arguments. You’re not being a fan trying to build of the sport, you’re a fan trying to tear it down.

Yes, and when it was a small business, golf was run like a small business.

I'm not suggesting that it's impossible that pool will ever be big business, but golf, a game that was played by the rich, garnered (with the help of Arnold Palmer and some others) the interest of corporate executives and the top celebrities, every one of them golfing fanatics, (Bing Crosby, Bob Hope, Andy Williams, Danny Thomas, Jackie Gleason and many others) got behind it and used its polished image to raise funds for charity. This happened early in the history of professional golf, and golf began to prosper since the 1968 formation of the PGA. Now, fifty five years ater, it's a giant concern.

Can this happen as well in pool? Certainly, pro pool tried to latch on to corporations and those with deep pockets since at least the 1950's, but pool does not share golf's image, and most professional players aren't even committed to raising its image. Very few celebrities want to be associated with pool in any way and, outside of Manny Pacquiao, who has tried to produce or promote any major pool events? Big corporations will rarely touch pool with a ten foot pole. Pool, over the last 70 years, has had to make do with inside-the-industry sponsorship.

Finally, I will not stoop to your level and insult you or suggest that you don' have the best interests of our sport at heart. I respect you and your opinions and assume that you are well-informed. I will not label you a saboteur of professional pool, even if that's how you choose to portray me.

 

[jasonlaus]

Another perspective is that first prize for the World 9 Ball was $100k in 2007, but the global recession caused the pool world to hit the reset button on that event, and when it came back, the money was roughly 1/3rd of what it had been the last time it was played.

First prize was $50k for the US Open 9 Ball in 2007, the same amount FSR got in 2022! It was also $50k in 2000, but that was an anomaly, as it immediately dropped to $30k the next three years and didn't reach 50k again until SVB won it in 07.

Keeping up with inflation, the U.S. Open should be closer to $75k for 1st and the World 9 Ball should be nearly $150k!

Now, I doubt that we'd see a $150k first prize even if the World 9 Ball never moved to Qatar and pool had kept chugging along, but $100k for the biggest event in pool seems reasonable, IMO.

Especially since it has already been done 16 years ago. Pool needs to promote the image that it is moving forward, not backwards in prize money. The bigger purses certainly help, and they are more player-friendly, but I think $100k is a sweet spot for the W9B, U.S. Open, and ideally, both. It's a nice, round number that's not going to cause people to scoff. I've heard many people chuckle at what pros make (excluding sponsorships and money on the side).

A 22-year-old fresh STEM graduate would be in the top 10 on the pool money leaderboard with an entry-level job at a big tech company.

I guess we can expect to see the BlueRaider 9ball with 100k for 1st shortly then? I just love spending other people's money, just like you.

 

[BlueRaider]

I guess we can expect to see the BlueRaider 9ball with 100k for 1st shortly then? I just love spending other people's money, just like you.

Looks like you didn't actually read the thread. Read the bolded below:

In 2007, the W9B champ got $100,000!

Then the global recession hit and the tournament moved to Qatar, where first prize was a measly $36,000 in 2010-2011.

It's sad that the needle moved so far backwards that $60,000 in 2023 is now the standard for the biggest prize in pool, when nearly 20 years ago the winner got almost double that (and during a time when everything cost considerably less money due to inflation).

To me, such a pitiful payout for the world championship of the premiere game of the sport makes pro pool look incredibly cheap and quaint. I'm not in a position to tell anyone or any organization how to spend their money, but six-figure first prizes would go a long way towards making pro pool seem at least remotely respectable as a sport. I think to the layperson, hearing the "world champion" made a whopping $60,000 for dispatching a bracket full of extreme talent makes them quickly dismiss the sport as nothing more than a novelty.

 

[jasonlaus]

Poker WAS probably closer to pool than anything else - smoking, drinking, cheating, fights, shootings, etc. mostly a game for everybody outside of the top 10, 20%

Hole cards and cleaning up the game has made it very respectable and celebrities want to be associated with it.

Wayyyy more exciting than pool though with the hole cards visible and the amount of $$$$ on the table.

 

[jasonlaus]

Looks like you didn't actually read the thread. Read the bolded below:

And yet here you are.

The $$$ is what the $$$ is and until they find sponsors that's the way it will stay.

 

[jasonlaus]

The caddy for the winning player in the just completed Arnold Palmer PGA event made at least 6 times what Kaci made for winning the world title and the player made 60 times as much. Pretty sad by comparison.

All of them are free to play golf, basketball, football, start their own company, be a CEO etc

 

[BlueRaider]

And yet here you are.

The $$$ is what the $$$ is and until they find sponsors that's the way it will stay.

Did it make you feel good to wake up this morning and decide to be a jackass on the internet over someone's opinion? Why are you personally offended that I want pool players to make more money? Why do YOU care how MR spends its money?

People think AZB is "toxic" because of jackasses like you.

 

[jasonlaus]

Eve

Is $60,000 cash buying you as more value today, or 20 years ago? A $60,000 tournament win in 2000, following inflation should be north of $100,000 now. It doesn’t matter if the numbers are up or not since the passing of a previous tournament promoter. You are not factoring the entire picture of what’s going on. I’m not saying we need $300,000 1st place payouts every major. Having the current world championships paying so little compared to the majors of other sports is quite debilitating. Even up and coming sports are passing pool in terms of payouts. We’ve neutered pool from a viewing perspective, and have lost millions in potential sponsor money. Yes the game is more challenging to play. But unless the top 100-150 pool players in the world can earn a true full time traveling career, making payouts work the way you want to doesn’t help that. There just isn’t enough $$$$ in the prize fund to justify expanding the lower payouts without taking away the prestige of the world champ title. Fix the sponsor side of the game, and we’ll get more money to pay out like you desire. But don’t diminish what first place gets because you have turned sour.

Everybody want prize money to keep up with inflation and yet they don't say a word to the poolroom owners who are still charging the same $6/hr like they did 30 years ago. That's why room's are closing everywhere

 

[jasonlaus]

Did it make you feel good to wake up this morning and decide to be a jackass on the internet over someone's opinion? Why are you personally offended that I want pool players to make more money? Why do YOU care how MR spends its money?

People think AZB is "toxic" because of jackasses like you.

No, you're the one who cares how they spend THEIR $$$, that's why you got the response you did