World 14.1 - Is this true???

[jay helfert]

One of the best things pool has going for it is that men and women CAN compete on equal terms, no handicaps necessary. I think by now the top women have proven that they are very competitive. I would refer you to results over the last few years of matches involving Jeanette, Gerda, Allison, KAREN (who has won Regional events with strong fields) and now Jasmin.

I have also noted that when a woman plays against a man in a pro tournament, the crowd might double in size. This fact alone speaks volumes to me. People WANT to see women and men competing on a level playing field. Pool is one of the few sports where this is possible. This was another good thing that the ill fated IPT understood and incorporated.

I would like to see more major events where women are invited to compete. One day there will be a championship on television where a woman is playing a man, and the ratings will go through the roof. Good for pool? DAMN RIGHT!

 

[StevenPWaldon]

It may be slight sexist, but who knows for sure? Perhaps he just meant that he'd rather play Jasmin Ouschan instead of last year's 14.1 WORLD CHAMPION Oliver Ortmann. On paper, he's much stronger but unfortunately he played probably his worst pool in years against Ouschan. I don't think either one of them ran more than 40 consecutive balls. If I were Busta, I'd rather play Jasmin instead of Oliver.

Someone posted that they overheard Bustamente comment "I hope I play the girl next". What a condescending, arrogant and sexist remark. Ironically Jasmin nearly beat him, but couldn't get on a roll.

She'll be back next year, and I hope she plays the masungit early on so he can get an early flight home.

Poolmouse

 

[StevenPWaldon]

Agreed. The Jasmin/Immonen match had a lot of spectators around it. As well, the Jasmin/Ortmann match had people on the edge of their seats. Yes, part of it was to see a great game but moreso people wanted to see the novelty of a woman playing high-caliber pool and in hopes of seeing history made. Can you imagine the impact if she had made the finals, or won the whole thing? It would be huge!

...
I have also noted that when a woman plays against a man in a pro tournament, the crowd might double in size. This fact alone speaks volumes to me. People WANT to see women and men competing on a level playing field. Pool is one of the few sports where this is possible. This was another good thing that the ill fated IPT understood and incorporated.

I would like to see more major events where women are invited to compete. One day there will be a championship on television where a woman is playing a man, and the ratings will go through the roof. Good for pool? DAMN RIGHT!

 

[soulcatcher]

I don't think the women should be allowed to play. Nothing to do with the sex, just the simple fact that they have a tour. The men only have a few big events and women can enter taking spots away from guys. When men are allowed to play in the WBPA then allow women to play the mens events. Any world event or known mens ranking events shouldn't allow female players. The women can play in 8 events?? for $10,000 or so plus the half dozen mens events that offer the same. Why should the guys give up their prize $$ and the women not have to risk WPBA prize $$. If guys where making big $$ with lots of events, I would have a different opinion.

Perhaps you should recheck the money list right here on AZ Billiards. Allison, the highest money making woman this year, is listed 11th on the list, and has made less than a third the money of the top male. Your argument does not hold water.

 

[cuechick]

I don't think the women should be allowed to play. Nothing to do with the sex, just the simple fact that they have a tour. The men only have a few big events and women can enter taking spots away from guys. When men are allowed to play in the WBPA then allow women to play the mens events. Any world event or known mens ranking events shouldn't allow female players. The women can play in 8 events?? for $10,000 or so plus the half dozen mens events that offer the same. Why should the guys give up their prize $$ and the women not have to risk WPBA prize $$. If guys where making big $$ with lots of events, I would have a different opinion.

As far as the examples allowing women players, there isn't a pro womens car racing or horse racing event...

The fact that the men do not have a cohesive unified pro tour, is exactly why Women should be allowed to compete in any open event. When and if, the men ever get their act together, then you might have a point. But certainly not in a unique event, like this one that should be open to the best players, regardless of gender, race or nationality. How can it be a true "World Championship" if you only allow certain people to play? It is not the "Men's 14.1 WC" after all.

 

[TWOFORPOOL]

Women play in World 14.1

I was around when Jean Balukus (sp) played in th Open events for a short time and got in the money. The men who played in the PBA change their tour to the MBPA soley to keep women (Jean) out of their tournaments. This really hurt pool.

I completely agree with Jay Helfert in that there are WOMEN THAT CAN COMPETE WITH THE MEN - LET THEM PLAY IN THE OPEN EVENTS.

The men need to look beyond their own self interest and realize that when the general public realize that women can compete on an equal basis with the men MORE WOMEN WILL BEGIN TO PLAY. The more ladies play the more the general public will watch. The more the general public will watch the bigger pool will become. The bigger pool becomes THE MORE MONEY THE PRO'S CAN MAKE. This is when pool will get the respect and money it deserves.

This may take 10 - 15 years but it will happen. If they would of allowed Jean to continue play with the men 30 years ago pool would of been a BIG SPORT TODAY! Lets not delay it anymore besides I WANT TO SEE THE BEST HUMAN PLAY!!!

 

[poolmouse]

the 14.1 world championships is not a "mens" event ......( as far as I know ) ...

I hope they keep it open. We really don't want to see another fiasco like Jean Balukas had to deal with years ago.

Speaking of Jean, it would be GREAT to see an exhibition match between her and Jasmin. I'm sure Jean lost some of the edge, having left the game so many years ago, but she's still a living legend. I'd pay to see that match.

Poolmouse

 

[DaveK]

The men only have a few big events and women can enter taking spots away from guys.

They could take the spots of those who qualify for big events don't bother to show up, eh Jason ?

As far as the examples allowing women players, there isn't a pro womens car racing or horse racing event...

Railfirst claimed an absolute : " in no other sport do men and women compete against each other ... ". I simply pointed out that this is not the reality.

Dave

 

[poolmouse]

If I were Busta, I'd rather play Jasmin instead of Oliver.

Busta's "the girl" comment was condescending. If he said "I hope I play Jasmin next", no feathers would have been ruffled. That being said, if Jasmin played her best, Busta would have had a very tough game. I hope she gets to the finals next year.

Poolmouse

 

[Sweet Marissa]

I don't think the women should be allowed to play. Nothing to do with the sex, just the simple fact that they have a tour. The men only have a few big events and women can enter taking spots away from guys. When men are allowed to play in the WBPA then allow women to play the mens events. Any world event or known mens ranking events shouldn't allow female players. The women can play in 8 events?? for $10,000 or so plus the half dozen mens events that offer the same. Why should the guys give up their prize $$ and the women not have to risk WPBA prize $$. If guys where making big $$ with lots of events, I would have a different opinion.

As far as the examples allowing women players, there isn't a pro womens car racing or horse racing event...

Well, the men have the UPA, which is men only. It isn't the women's fault that they don't have their act together. This wasn't a UPA event, therefore open to both genders.

 

[JB Cases]

There were male and female players that did not belong in that tournament.!! Male and female !!..The only reason for them to be at that event should have been as a spectator.
Some of the play I witnessed from both a few men and a woman was c+ to low B at best,,,AT BEST.
If they want to pick on the women tell them to pick on the men also who couldn't run a rack after their opponet blasted them with a chicago break, more than once.
Believe me they weren't haven't a bad day it was their level, it was obvious.
A handful of players were very weak, MEN AND WOMEN
How did they get in this event?
Why were they in this event?
WHERE WERE THE PLAYERS THAT BELONGED IN THESE SPOTS?
What a joke

This is because it was not a true world championship and those that call it one are doing the sport a gross disservice. It was an invitational publicity stunt.

I am all for men and women competing equally on the green felt. There is no physical reason why they shouldn't.

That said I want to see truly qualified players playing the game. IF it is to be an invitational then I want to see living legends who can still play be invited. Ray Martin, Grady Matthews, Dallas West, Nick Varner, these are all straight pool champions who deserve to be invited to every 14.1 event invitational as long as they are alive.

Otherwise make it an event that has to be qualified for. You have to be an established champion, such as Souquet's 14.1 titles in Europe, or Jasmin's 14.1 titles, OR you have to qualify by winning smaller events, or something OTHER than just being in favor at the moment by those who promote the event.

Or just don't call it a World Championship. Call it the xxxx-sponsor World 14.1 INVITATIONAL and then invite whomever you want. If you want to slight the living legends by not inviting them then that's fine, just don't add insult to injury by billing your event as a world championship.

 

[JB Cases]

I don't think the women should be allowed to play. Nothing to do with the sex, just the simple fact that they have a tour. The men only have a few big events and women can enter taking spots away from guys. When men are allowed to play in the WBPA then allow women to play the mens events. Any world event or known mens ranking events shouldn't allow female players. The women can play in 8 events?? for $10,000 or so plus the half dozen mens events that offer the same. Why should the guys give up their prize $$ and the women not have to risk WPBA prize $$. If guys where making big $$ with lots of events, I would have a different opinion.

As far as the examples allowing women players, there isn't a pro womens car racing or horse racing event...

There are also tours for C-players as well. Should the pros be allowed to play on those? The women's tour is essentially a separate tour for players who are self-admittedly weaker players on average than their male counterparts. The men are acknowledged universally to be the best in the world with the highest average skill level. Even if the best woman player played at the same average level as the best male player she would still be one player against hundreds of players who are not far under her.

Since the males are the best then it should ALWAYS be open for any player from any other level, be it women's tours, wheelchair tours, c/b level tours, to try and compete with them. No male professional should be afraid to play any player from a lower level. If they are then they don't deserve to be in the professional ranks.

No professional player should EVER seek to go and compete against players in a lower level that is restricted to those lower levels. That's a BS excuse that the lower level players are double dipping. I say that IF they are able to qualify then allow them to play.

 

[StevenPWaldon]

For what it's worth, this was a WPA-sanctioned World Championship. It's not as if they just used the term 'World Championship' in hopes of gaining credibility.

And aside from the known-champions who were invited (Engert, Hohmann, Ortmann, etc.), there were in fact qualifier to this event. It's not like Charlie just got a few of his friends to play in order to fill up the field.

And for the record, there were some old-timers invited. Hopkins, Hunter and Sigel are the first that come to mind. Varner played in it back in 2006. Why he wasn't there can only be speculation, yet you assume he wasn't invited in the first place.

As to inviting great players like Ray Martin, Grady Mathews, etc as long as they're alive.... are you joking? What if they go blind and can't even hit a ball? I'm all for honoring the greats of the game, but some of these guys are getting up their in age. And one day they won't be able to hit a ball. You're really treading a fine line here, somehow criticizing the level of play at the tournament yet not afraid to grandfather in players who are past their prime?

This is because it was not a true world championship and those that call it one are doing the sport a gross disservice. It was an invitational publicity stunt.

...

That said I want to see truly qualified players playing the game. IF it is to be an invitational then I want to see living legends who can still play be invited. Ray Martin, Grady Matthews, Dallas West, Nick Varner, these are all straight pool champions who deserve to be invited to every 14.1 event invitational as long as they are alive.

Otherwise make it an event that has to be qualified for. You have to be an established champion, such as Souquet's 14.1 titles in Europe, or Jasmin's 14.1 titles, OR you have to qualify by winning smaller events, or something OTHER than just being in favor at the moment by those who promote the event.

Or just don't call it a World Championship. Call it the xxxx-sponsor World 14.1 INVITATIONAL and then invite whomever you want. If you want to slight the living legends by not inviting them then that's fine, just don't add insult to injury by billing your event as a world championship.

 

[NYC cue dude]

john

Ray, Dallas, balukas and varner (played in 06) have all been invited and all have chosen not to compete. Grady is the only str8 pool legend not to receive an invitation. Obviously, he has personal problems with the people at DP.

Rg

 

[Drawman623]

An opinion

So I heard that some of the male players were complaining that the women shouldn't be playing with them in the World 14.1 championship something because none of them have truly achieved world championship status. Supposedly a lot was said about Jasmin because and I quote "she's the only one female who played that could play worth a damn".

Is this true?

I attended the event and and overheard as well as participated in discussion about the validity of of women competing in the tournament. I have only 5 brief points to offer:

1) I don't believe that an event can call itself a "World Championship" if it excludes women. If they can qualify, they must be included.

2) Jasmin earned her high finish and outplayed the competition when she won.

3) I believe women's straight pool high runs in competition do not compare to men's. I have no formal statistics but recall a run of less than 90 balls that was hailed as the women's record in this tournament 2 years ago.

4) The ugly part of my post: I overheard a player comment that his wife knew her place. "...man is in charge" I find this attitude appauling, but it was held by an international player. It is not for me to be ethnocentric and judge his cultural values as right or wrong. Whatever was said by players of other cultures should not, in my opinion, be measured literally as if an American player said it. I don't always like what I hear when attending international events, but I appreciate their pluralism.

5) A final note...some of the guys making noise about Jasmin did so because they fear her game. A nervous remark, taken out of context, can appear to be to be perversely sexist...without sex or gender ever having been a true factor.

 

[Jason Robichaud]

Perhaps you should recheck the money list right here on AZ Billiards. Allison, the highest money making woman this year, is listed 11th on the list, and has made less than a third the money of the top male. Your argument does not hold water.

She is also at almost half of second on the list, which is Shane. He cashed in 24 events, who knows how many he played. Allison cashed in 6 events for half of his prize money. Take a look at expenses for the two players, sponsorship $$ etc and see who is doing better.

It has nothing to do with women against men or who is better. They simply have a tour that men can't play on. This tour offers way more prize money than what is available for the men on any regular tour. When an event comes up that offers good payouts, more than the regular weekend events, it should be reserved for the men (limited field events)... or allow men to play the womens events. As it stands, the women have an extra 8 chances to win $13,500.

I have no problem with women playing in the other events that don't limit the field. I really enjoyed playing Corr during a Joss event. She potted everything! These are true open events and anyone should be allowed to play... open field and players. I like what someone else posted, play the womens or mens but not both... No double dipping. It is unfare for the guys trying to make a buck playing pool.

 

[cuechick]

I like what someone else posted, play the womens or mens but not both... No double dipping. It is unfare for the guys trying to make a buck playing pool.

Well since there is no equivalent women's 14.1 event to this one, then they are not double dipping and by your own statement, have every right to compete.

 

[Johnnyt]

In one breath "women can't compete with the men". In the next breath "don't let them play in mens tournaments," they might cash or God forbid beat a top pro. Total BS. Johnnyt

 

[Scott Lee]

You cannot have a "sanctioned" world championship, that is invitation only. If it is going to have qualifiers, then EVERYONE should have to qualify...period! If it's only a matter of who posts the entry fee, then ANYONE should be able to post the entry fee and play. You can't have it both ways...which is why this tournament was not a 'world championship', imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

For what it's worth, this was a WPA-sanctioned World Championship. It's not as if they just used the term 'World Championship' in hopes of gaining credibility.

 

[Johnnyt]

You cannot have a "sanctioned" world championship, that is invitation only. If it is going to have qualifiers, then EVERYONE should have to qualify...period! If it's only a matter of who posts the entry fee, then ANYONE should be able to post the entry fee and play. You can't have it both ways...which is why this tournament was not a 'world championship', imo.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I guess if you pay the WPA that qualifies to santion anything. Pool is what it is and will always be the same. Johnnyt