World Pool-Billiard Association

[PoolSharkAllen]

If DP would get off of their high horse ... and work within the system, they would get a lot more cooperation and not as much shitt.

It's still unclear why DP scheduled their 14.1 championship event right in between two major European tournaments...thus forcing many European players to decline participation in the 14.1 tournament.

Couldn't DP have scheduled the 14.1 championship for another time?

 

[Blackjack]

David, Charlie, as the former head of the UPA and currently DP, brings a lot of the shitt on himself through his business practices.
When he headed the UPA, he had a history of bullying promoters. There is a promoter in my area that gave up on promoting pool events because of CW.
In this current situation, DP insists on calling this tournament a "World Championship", when they know that they have not met the criteria for a true "World Championship".
If DP would get off of their high horse and stop trying to bill every event as a "World Championship" and work within the system, they would get a lot more cooperation and not as much shitt.

Rich, I completely agree with you - but this goes much further than just the UPA and DP.

Several years ago, I was preaching unity amongst the regional tours. We needed to have some kind of organization - a feeder system for a pro tour - cooperation with the national and global federations - etc.

The money revolving in and around our industry needed to be reinvested back into the game - not gambled away - pissed up a rope, or used to finance the next money losing venture.

By unifying and cooperatively utilizing our resources, we would be much more effective. Instead of doing that, we continue to operate in a cut throat environment.

At the global level, we are viewed as renegades. We are now reaping the benefits of that mentality.

Everybody views organization as something that will hurt their cash flow. They operate out of fear and ignorance, and continue to earn the same bottom line amount as they did when I was preaching this horrible message 5-6 years ago.

Everybody wants their cut. They don't want to share with anybody else. They refuse to operate within a standardized governing body of the sport, so they create their own little pool world in which they can have ultimate control and operate with their own set of rules and standards (or lack thereof).

That's not working now, it hasn't worked in the past, and it won't work in the future.

The only reason I brought Charlie up, is because he is the only promoter that I personally know of that has worked with the BCA and WPA to promote WPA sanctioned events. The personal issues and everything else can be discussed by the people that wish to concentrate on that.

What is important is the future of the game.

Within this forum exists the people with the experience, knowledge, and ability to organize the game in North America. This can be done within the BCA/WPA guidelines, but it needs support.

In North America, we do not see the benefits of the WPA nor do we reap the benefits of the WPA because we think we don't need the WPA.

We do need them, and if we just turn our backs on them (like we did during the IPT) then we should expect to be viewed and treated as the rebellious children of the pool world. If we don't like that, then IMO, its time for us to stop the nonsense and grow up. JMO.

 

[Steve Lipsky]

Thanks to all for their replies. It's been an informative thread.

Roy, I'm curious: In Europe, where it's agreed the WPA does a more comprehensive job, what are typical prizes for 1st place? And how often are WPA-sanctioned tournaments held?

Thanks,
Steve

 

[Tbeaux]

Blackjack........no arguement about the need for a top of the food chain organization, however since the WPA says it sanctions all the world championships shouldn't they be the ones putting on the world championships? The WPA should announce the championships and then accept bids from whoever (Dragon,Hopkins,APBU,Joe-n-Freds Pool Productions and BBQ,etc) for producing the championships AND the qualifiers. They should also ELIMINATE this reserved sponsors player spot crap in championships (qualifiers okay). "They" should have resurrected the straight pool championships not DP. DP should have been bidding on it. They (WPA) are not doing their job in a proactive way. Neither is the BCA.

Hell I don't even want to get started on what the Pinoy players should tell all these international organizations regarding the situation there.

 

[Blackjack]

Blackjack........no arguement about the need for a top of the food chain organization, however since the WPA says it sanctions all the world championships shouldn't they be the ones putting on the world championships? The WPA should announce the championships and then accept bids from whoever (Dragon,Hopkins,APBU,Joe-n-Freds Pool Productions and BBQ,etc) for producing the championships AND the qualifiers. They should also ELIMINATE this reserved sponsors player spot crap in championships (qualifiers okay). "They" should have resurrected the straight pool championships not DP. DP should have been bidding on it. They (WPA) are not doing their job in a proactive way. Neither is the BCA.

Hell I don't even want to get started on what the Pinoy players should tell all these international organizations regarding the situation there.

You are correct - however - there would not be a straight pool world championship in existence if Charlie didn't promote it, and if Randy Goldwater did not finance it in the beginning. Nobody in the world of 14.1 is complaining about Charlie's desire to keep this event going. If we left that up to the WPA, this event would never have happened. I can guarantee you that.

The problem with sanctioning this year was due to many factors, I'm sure. I just think (and I will verify this when I talk to Charlie - but time was the main factor. This event wasn't announced until just a few months ago - at least that is when I heard about it. The guidelines the WPA set forth for the WC have been followed every year since this event was revived. However, this year the event was in need of a sponsor - and without money - guaranteed money - sanctioning becomes out of reach for any promoter, not just Charlie Williams.

The WPA is not a money machine or promoting entity. They are a governing body that oversees pocket billiards. Promoters run events. The promoters need to follow sanctioning guidelines if they want WPA sanctioning for their events. These rules are NOT set in place because the WPA/WCBS want to rule the game with an iron fist or to get rich - they want acceptance into the IOC, eventually. That will open up many opportunities for ALL cue sports, not just pool. We should ALL be working towards that.

However, the North American pool contingent doesn't care about the IOC at all. I brought up the WCBS and the WPA when the IPT formed back in 2005. Hardly anybody knew that the WCBS existed, never mind what purpose it served. Ignorance of the WCBS/WPA and their mission is the main problem with the way pool is governed in North America.

The reserved spots is an issue that should be addressed, but IMO, the current system does work. It has its flaws, but those can be corrected.

What needs to happen is this, and I have already approached Charlie about it. Collectively, all regional tour directors need to get together and find out exactly what can be done to establish a better way of doing business within the game of pool. We need to have a meeting sort of like when Don Corleone had a meeting with the Dons of all the families.

We need to recognize that what we are doing now isn't working out very well for anybody. Nobody is making money. Nonetheless, there is still posturing and throat slashing, and backstabbing to win a race on the treadmill known as the world of pool.

Take a look at the big picture - we have more power combined and unified than we have running around as renegades. If this continues, you will start to see a lot of events forced into extinction.

Unifying together to work towards a single purpose (strengthening the game of pool) does not mean that promoters will be losing money or power. We need leadership, and right now we don't have that.

Now for the jawdropping part of my reply...

FWIW, I believe that CSI is much more qualified to lead pool in North America than the BCA. That is just my opinion, and I know many will disagree with me about that, but trust me - they are far more equipped and organized to lead the way - and more importantly, they honestly give a shitt about the game.

I'm not sure if CSI wants anything to do with the WPA - maybe they are willing to take over, maybe they're not. I don't think anybody can do a worse job than is being done now - and perhaps a change is what we need. Not my decision to make - just giving out my thoughts about who should be driving the bus.

 

[Eric.]

Steve,

I didn't read the whole thread, but when I was talking to Fran Crimi, not too long ago, she told me that she is on the board of the WPA (one of the North America reps?).

Maybe you should have a conversation with Fran?


Eric >Comet Billiards next Friday

 

[btoneill]

FWIW, I believe that CSI is much more qualified to lead pool in North America than the BCA. That is just my opinion, and I know many will disagree with me about that, but trust me - they are far more equipped and organized to lead the way - and more importantly, they honestly give a shitt about the game.

I know I'll be flamed by someone, but don't really care...

But anyways, IMHO there is an organization in North America that I think is the most qualified... the APA. Yes, people blast it for it's league format. Forget what the weekly league rules are, sandbaggers, etc. They are a very well run organization that has a foothold in just about every major pool market in the US and Canada (as well as Japan). They prove year after year that they are able to put on well run large tournaments on the national level (Team Nationals, Singles Nationals, and the US Amateur Open) and their "franchises" put on some very well run regional and district events.

The key is organization, the ability to bring in corporate sponsors, ability to get on TV, and the ability to bring in fans. APA has all of those things in abundance. Imagine what it could do for ratings on ESPN if every national event was televised with fliers being given to every APA player during weekly leagues advertising the tournament and it's TV coverage. They put out a pretty glossy magazine sent to every APA member several times a year. Start doing profiles of professionals and tournaments there and get interest in the group that needs to find it first, the normal pool player.

Until we are able to get people who play the sport and spend their hard earned money every week to compete in it to care and follow the sport in North America, it will never go past where it is today. So, why not take the largest (and IMHO best run) amateur league in the US to add a professional promotion side to it joined with the WPA.

Than again, just my opinion, feel free to flame away....

Brian

 

[maldito]

Is this Galveston Event "sanctioned" by the WPA .

http://www.theworldclassic.com/

 

[Blackjack]

I know I'll be flamed by someone, but don't really care...

But anyways, IMHO there is an organization in North America that I think is the most qualified... the APA. Yes, people blast it for it's league format. Forget what the weekly league rules are, sandbaggers, etc. They are a very well run organization that has a foothold in just about every major pool market in the US and Canada (as well as Japan). They prove year after year that they are able to put on well run large tournaments on the national level (Team Nationals, Singles Nationals, and the US Amateur Open) and their "franchises" put on some very well run regional and district events.

The key is organization, the ability to bring in corporate sponsors, ability to get on TV, and the ability to bring in fans. APA has all of those things in abundance. Imagine what it could do for ratings on ESPN if every national event was televised with fliers being given to ever APA player during weekly leagues advertising the tournament and it's TV coverage. The put out pretty glossly magazines sent to every APA member several times a year. Start doing profiles of professionals and tournaments there and get interest in the group that needs to find it first, the normal pool player.

Until we are able to get people who play the sport and spend their hard earned money every week to compete in it to care and follow the sport in North America it will never go past where it is today. So, why not take the largest (and IMHO best run) amateur league in the US to add a professional promotion side to it joined with the WPA.

Than again, just my opinion, feel free to flame away....

Brian

Brian,

Everybody should be involved at every level of the game, to include the APA, BCAPL, etc, etc, etc.

We all fall under the pocket billiards umbrella, everybody should have a voice and an opportunity to provide input on how the game is run.

But ... we need to have uniformity in rules, and other matters.

Everybody thinks that through unification that they will get a smaller piece of the pie. Nothing can be further from the truth because if it strengthens the industry, the entire pie gets bigger.

You can see evidence of "the pie getting bigger" in the way that the APA has grown since it was established. Nobody can argue with success, and they are one of the most successful businesses in the world of pool.

(edited to respond to Maldito - I do not believe that the Galveston Event, DCC, or the SBE are sanctioned by the WPA - at least to my knowledge they aren't)

 

[cleary]

I know I'll be flamed by someone, but don't really care...

But anyways, IMHO there is an organization in North America that I think is the most qualified... the APA. Yes, people blast it for it's league format. Forget what the weekly league rules are, sandbaggers, etc. They are a very well run organization that has a foothold in just about every major pool market in the US and Canada (as well as Japan). They prove year after year that they are able to put on well run large tournaments on the national level (Team Nationals, Singles Nationals, and the US Amateur Open) and their "franchises" put on some very well run regional and district events.

The key is organization, the ability to bring in corporate sponsors, ability to get on TV, and the ability to bring in fans. APA has all of those things in abundance. Imagine what it could do for ratings on ESPN if every national event was televised with fliers being given to every APA player during weekly leagues advertising the tournament and it's TV coverage. They put out a pretty glossy magazine sent to every APA member several times a year. Start doing profiles of professionals and tournaments there and get interest in the group that needs to find it first, the normal pool player.

Until we are able to get people who play the sport and spend their hard earned money every week to compete in it to care and follow the sport in North America, it will never go past where it is today. So, why not take the largest (and IMHO best run) amateur league in the US to add a professional promotion side to it joined with the WPA.

Than again, just my opinion, feel free to flame away....

Brian

Yes, the APA is very successful. But on the same note, think of what they could do for Professional pool. If they re-invested their profits into establishing a REAL professional tour (which Im certain they are financially capable of), they could do a lot of things for the sport as well as for themselves.

 

[Neil]

..............

 

[AuntyDan]

...We need to have a meeting sort of like when Don Corleone had a meeting with the Dons of all the families....

Now there's a great idea. All we need to do is make an "example" out of one and the rest will quickly fall into line.

Will the WPA supply the piano wire or do we have to bring our own?

 

[DRW]

excellent questions

I'm trying to understand the WPA's role in both domestic pool and international pool. I want to make clear - I write this thread with absolutely no intent to either malign them or laud them. I simply have little idea what they do and would like to learn.

I went to their website and, unfortunately, it's not terribly helpful. I was able to find their constitution, which is a lot of fluff written in legalese (example: "To cultivate mutual friendships with all other types of international and national billiards organizations."). Their "aims" and "objectives" were in many cases not very specific.

I've tried looking through AZB for info but their search function won't recognize a 3-letter search term.

One thing the WPA can definitely improve upon, in my opinion, is marketing their idea and purpose a little better. I think the BCA is the US (North American?) "wing" of the WPA, but I really don't know if the BCA belongs to the WPA, or the WPA created the BCA as the American version of its brand. I'm guessing the former. I'm curious to know if the BCAPL needs WPA approval to hold their annual amateur tournaments in Vegas or their round-the-year leagues across the country? If they don't, what is the advantage to the BCA of being a WPA member? Is it just that we get to send certain players to international championships? What does the BCA pay to the WPA annually for this right?

I definitely think pool needs an international sanctioning body. So I'm very interested in hearing from some experts on this, to help us all (or at least me) learn where the WPA is succeeding and where it is lagging. Again, they need to expend some more effort on their US marketing; the general opinion of them among most of the players I know is either not even knowing who they are, or thinking they do very little for US pool.

Finally, if they're not doing as much for US pool as they could, is that our fault or theirs?

Thanks to all.

- Steve

Have not read any of the other replies, but hope somebody can answer Steve's excellent questions. I hate legalese speak. It always seems to be hiding something or at least making things incomprehensible.

 

[Tbeaux]

You are correct - however - there would not be a straight pool world championship in existence if Charlie didn't promote it, and if Randy Goldwater did not finance it in the beginning. Nobody in the world of 14.1 is complaining about Charlie's desire to keep this event going. If we left that up to the WPA, this event would never have happened. I can guarantee you that.

The problem with sanctioning this year was due to many factors, I'm sure. I just think (and I will verify this when I talk to Charlie - but time was the main factor. This event wasn't announced until just a few months ago - at least that is when I heard about it. The guidelines the WPA set forth for the WC have been followed every year since this event was revived. However, this year the event was in need of a sponsor - and without money - guaranteed money - sanctioning becomes out of reach for any promoter, not just Charlie Williams.

The WPA is not a money machine or promoting entity. They are a governing body that oversees pocket billiards. Promoters run events. The promoters need to follow sanctioning guidelines if they want WPA sanctioning for their events. These rules are NOT set in place because the WPA/WCBS want to rule the game with an iron fist or to get rich - they want acceptance into the IOC, eventually. That will open up many opportunities for ALL cue sports, not just pool. We should ALL be working towards that.

However, the North American pool contingent doesn't care about the IOC at all. I brought up the WCBS and the WPA when the IPT formed back in 2005. Hardly anybody knew that the WCBS existed, never mind what purpose it served. Ignorance of the WCBS/WPA and their mission is the main problem with the way pool is governed in North America.

The reserved spots is an issue that should be addressed, but IMO, the current system does work. It has its flaws, but those can be corrected.

What needs to happen is this, and I have already approached Charlie about it. Collectively, all regional tour directors need to get together and find out exactly what can be done to establish a better way of doing business within the game of pool. We need to have a meeting sort of like when Don Corleone had a meeting with the Dons of all the families.

We need to recognize that what we are doing now isn't working out very well for anybody. Nobody is making money. Nonetheless, there is still posturing and throat slashing, and backstabbing to win a race on the treadmill known as the world of pool.

Take a look at the big picture - we have more power combined and unified than we have running around as renegades. If this continues, you will start to see a lot of events forced into extinction.

Unifying together to work towards a single purpose (strengthening the game of pool) does not mean that promoters will be losing money or power. We need leadership, and right now we don't have that.

Now for the jawdropping part of my reply...

FWIW, I believe that CSI is much more qualified to lead pool in North America than the BCA. That is just my opinion, and I know many will disagree with me about that, but trust me - they are far more equipped and organized to lead the way - and more importantly, they honestly give a shitt about the game.

I'm not sure if CSI wants anything to do with the WPA - maybe they are willing to take over, maybe they're not. I don't think anybody can do a worse job than is being done now - and perhaps a change is what we need. Not my decision to make - just giving out my thoughts about who should be driving the bus.

I wasn't trying to say the WPA needs to become a money making, pool promoting corporation. Only that as the "recognized lead organization" (they are recognized as such) they need to.........

1) set the standardized rules and specifications (equipement, game rules, tournament format)

2) take bids,analyze the bids, and select the best package that leads to a world championship

3) set up some form of compensation for running their organization as more or less a non profit (as part of #2)

4) in conjunction with other "continental organizations" (BCA,APBU,EPBF,etc.) setup a training and certification program for approved referees (this only partly exists) per #1 above.

The various world championships should ALWAYS take place during the last 2 weeks of November and first 2 weeks of December. Qualifiers spaced out through the year and by continent. Championship bids taken beginning one year in advance and final selection of promotion package by July or earlier. Qualifier bids for next season decided prior to the current years world championships. For now the games would (or could) be 9-Ball, 10-Ball, Straight, 8-Ball. Maybe even 1P.

The WPA should be gathering input from the Pro Pool organizations, trade organizations (manufacturers),promoters, etc. The real problem is lack of initiative and also as Strother Martin said "A failure to communicate".

Still don't understand the purpose of WCBS.
The Pool Mafia idea has merit.......maybe try it out on the BCA.:thumbup:

 

[sfleinen]

Now there's a great idea. All we need to do is make an "example" out of one and the rest will quickly fall into line.

Will the WPA supply the piano wire or do we have to bring our own?

But the problem is that we don't want the event -- or the sport itself -- to "sleep with the fishes."

 

[Blackjack]

Tbeaux

I said the same thing about the WPA when I found out that the sanctioning was dropped for this event. I asked myself why they wouldn't search high and low to find a way to make this prestigious event a sanctioned event with their organization. There has to be somebody somewhere sitting at a desk whose only purpose in life is to ensure that these events are scheduled, financed, and sanctioned to ensure that the legacy of the sport has continuity.

I was wrong. No such person exists.

I sent a message to Charlie this morning, but I doubt that he will get back with me with a response to that message until after the tournament is completed at Comet.

In that message I talk about exactly the issues that you brought up and how we can work towards avoiding the pitfalls that we are experiencing now, and working towards solutions to these issues.

The key is that we all have to work together toward progress. Until that occurs, and as long as the focus is put upon Charlie Williams and DP being the scapegoats of everything that wrong with pool (by some, not all) then we will continue to get nowhere. This is everybody's problem, and it will take everybody to correct this situation. The main problem is that there are some that are perfectly content with the way things are now. Unbelievably sad, but true.

 

[Tbeaux]

The key is that we all have to work together toward progress. Until that occurs, and as long as the focus is put upon Charlie Williams and DP being the scapegoats of everything that wrong with pool (by some, not all) then we will continue to get nowhere. This is everybody's problem, and it will take everybody to correct this situation. The main problem is that there are some that are perfectly content with the way things are now. Unbelievably sad, but true.

Yep. I have my problem with some DP + CW "stuff", but you're right, at least they do try.
Everybodies problem............good point. This forum IS the best way to access those who can make a difference and get their attention. I have no doubt that Jerry has looked in on this thread for one (not being critical of you in my comments Jerry, just the organization or lack of at WPA). This forum is looked at by Organization Officials, manufacturers, players, hell everybody either first or second hand. Just wish they'd all put their heads together and dot the i's and cross the t's to a solution for all or even most of the problems. Or as an alternative head butt each other.:grin:

 

[maldito]

(edited to respond to Maldito - I do not believe that the Galveston Event, DCC, or the SBE are sanctioned by the WPA - at least to my knowledge they aren't)

If it is not sanctioned that is interesting because I believe there is a tournament comming up in the Netherlands "Dynamic Dutch Open" and it may coincide with the Galveston event and I bet the "Dynamic Dutch Open" is "sanctioned" . Note the payouts are quite generous for the Galveston event I wonder what the payouts for the "Dynamic Dutch Open" are.

 

[pooltchr]

I know I'll be flamed by someone, but don't really care...

But anyways, IMHO there is an organization in North America that I think is the most qualified... the APA. Yes, people blast it for it's league format. Forget what the weekly league rules are, sandbaggers, etc. They are a very well run organization that has a foothold in just about every major pool market in the US and Canada (as well as Japan). They prove year after year that they are able to put on well run large tournaments on the national level (Team Nationals, Singles Nationals, and the US Amateur Open) and their "franchises" put on some very well run regional and district events.

The key is organization, the ability to bring in corporate sponsors, ability to get on TV, and the ability to bring in fans. APA has all of those things in abundance. Imagine what it could do for ratings on ESPN if every national event was televised with fliers being given to every APA player during weekly leagues advertising the tournament and it's TV coverage. They put out a pretty glossy magazine sent to every APA member several times a year. Start doing profiles of professionals and tournaments there and get interest in the group that needs to find it first, the normal pool player.

Until we are able to get people who play the sport and spend their hard earned money every week to compete in it to care and follow the sport in North America, it will never go past where it is today. So, why not take the largest (and IMHO best run) amateur league in the US to add a professional promotion side to it joined with the WPA.

Than again, just my opinion, feel free to flame away....

Brian

Brian,
I think you have some very good points. Perhaps the best way to build an effective organization would be from the bottom up. The APA obviously has the support of the amateur players, and the framework to build on to what they already have. They already started building when they created the masters division. It wouldn't be a giant leap to expand that to a semi-pro level that could feed players into the next level.
The question is, are they interested in doing it. To me, it would be one more incentive for more players to become involved. I can see players working up through the skill levels, into the next division, and the next, and finally qualified to play in pro-open events.

Maybe someone smarter than I can explain why it won't work, or maybe someone wiser than I will see how it can work.

Steve

 

[Tbeaux]

If it is not sanctioned that is interesting because I believe there is a tournament comming up in the Netherlands "Dynamic Dutch Open" and it may coincide with the Galveston event and I bet the "Dynamic Dutch Open" is "sanctioned" . Note the payouts are quite generous for the Galveston event I wonder what the payouts for the "Dynamic Dutch Open" are.

They've already said it (Galveston) conflicts with a EPBF-WPA sanctioned european event. Most European players are likely going to stay in Europe so they don't get in hot water with EPBF and WPA. It's really too bad, but unavoidable I suppose. The Galveston organizers already re-scheduled the womens 9-Ball to fix a last minute schedule conflict with the WPBA.