Would Like Some Ideas On Playing Better Shape

Because you won't even try is exactly why you can't do it. So, you are saying that is impossible for a human to hit a cb to the end rail, freeze until the cb rebounds back to their tip and have it stop dead on their tip. There are many on here that have done that. And if you think you can't do that, you are missing out.

Both of you guys are saying that you can't hit center ball, but you can hit just a hair from center reliably. Baloney. If you can reliably hit one spot on the cb, you can reliably hit another spot. So, if your cue has so little deflection to it that your cb squirts noticeably with 1/16 of a tip of english, which is about the space between these letters, than you need to go get a real cue. Second, if it does cause the cb to squirt noticeably at that little difference, and you can't hit center ball reliably, which means you can't hit where you want to reliably, then you can't control the squirt you are getting. You can't adjust, because you can't hit that small a spot reliably anyways.

Neil I believe I understand the idea you're getting across. If one can hit a TOI accurately, then they should just as easily be able to hit CCB.

But based on previous posts of CJ's, I don't believe the TOI is about being super accurate. It's more about giving a little leeway to errors in one's stroke.

Meaning with the TOI alignment, you can hit a 1/2 tip inside of center and make the ball. As well as if you make a small error in where you hit (key word "small"), you can still make the ball.

Whereas if you aim at CCB, I don't think the tolerance for error is as wide.

I exclusively use Pro One, but I did spend a bit of time learning TOI, and can say for whatever reason it does work very well.

Just my $.02
 
I'm late to the party but would ask if you're familiar with line and zone position, playing inside triangles of balls in Eight Ball and Straight Pool, etc.

The advice is correct re: playing shape to a specific spot, however, other position devices must also be used for planning ahead to roll long or short of that specific spot!
 
I was going to ask this after Elroy's original post but didn't want to aid in the hijacking :wink:

Apparently the hijacking happened anyway, so I guess I can ask ...

When Elroy says, "I find aiming to be completely effortless if the cut is 30 degrees or less"

and

"I've missed zillions of long shots that were 30 degrees or less but every single one of the misses was caused by squirt and swerve,"

... could his problem possibly be throw and not an inaccurate hit on the CB?

I'm asking because I'm working on a new set-up and stroke routine taught me by Scott Lee. It's working flawlessly ... dead straight almost without fail. I can run the ball up and back the length of the table and hit my tip—or very close to it—on virtually every attempt. There's only one small problem: I can't sink shit.

I'm shooting straighter than I ever have and am shooting worse than I ever have.

So I've been reading a lot and am wondering if this 'throw' thing might be my trouble. And after reading Elroy's OP, his problem sounded a little like mine, Except for the "completely effortless" part, that is.

Anyway, any input would be greatly appreciated,

Thanks,
Harvey

Apologies to lstevedus
Well, the completely effortless comment would have been completely arrogant if I didn't believe that it is completely effortless for anyone of average hand - eye coordination. So you can make the ball come back and hit your tip but you're having a hard time pocketing balls. Therefore, you think your problem must be aiming. I think I might know what the problem might be. I don't know what your skill level is, but when I started to be successful at hitting the ball off the cushion and having it come back to my tip, although I could do it 3 tomes in a row the poise and concentration needed made the fourth attempt feel like Chinese water torture. If your concentrating this hard on your stroke every time you hit an object ball maybe it's too difficult then to multi -task and concentrate on the simple act of aiming. When I practice my center ball hit I always laugh when I have a long straight in shot. When I get down to shoot it I always say to myself, "Alright, you can't put any spin whatsoever on this one. It's straight in." Then I say to myself, "Wait a second. Your practicing center ball hit. Your not supposed to be putting spin on any of these shots!" Then I realize Even though I think I'm hitting center ball, I'm actually unconsciously putting some spin on all of them. Why? One of the reasons is because it takes much less concentration whereby I can concentrate on things like aiming.
 
Well, the completely effortless comment would have been completely arrogant if I didn't believe that it is completely effortless for anyone of average hand - eye coordination. So you can make the ball come back and hit your tip but you're having a hard time pocketing balls. Therefore, you think your problem must be aiming. I think I might know what the problem might be. I don't know what your skill level is, but when I started to be successful at hitting the ball off the cushion and having it come back to my tip, although I could do it 3 tomes in a row the poise and concentration needed made the fourth attempt feel like Chinese water torture. If your concentrating this hard on your stroke every time you hit an object ball maybe it's too difficult then to multi -task and concentrate on the simple act of aiming. When I practice my center ball hit I always laugh when I have a long straight in shot. When I get down to shoot it I always say to myself, "Alright, you can't put any spin whatsoever on this one. It's straight in." Then I say to myself, "Wait a second. Your practicing center ball hit. Your not supposed to be putting spin on any of these shots!" Then I realize Even though I think I'm hitting center ball, I'm actually unconsciously putting some spin on all of them. Why? One of the reasons is because it takes much less concentration whereby I can concentrate on things like aiming.

To your point above, that is partly why using english &/or TOI works well IMO. The focus is on doing something other than concentrating on things that are very difficult. Namely hitting the exact center of the cue ball so it can be sent to one point on the object ball.

That premise can be overwhelming for some if not many.

Both the use of english & TOI are more dynamic in their application & there is a plan in mind that allows for a bit of error. That knowledge that one does not have to be perfect is very liberating & allows more of ones attention & focus to be directed to other aspects such as speed & CB control.

Regards & Best Wishes,
Rick
 
The key to doing this is being accurate (in your cue ball / tip targeting)

Neil I believe I understand the idea you're getting across. If one can hit a TOI accurately, then they should just as easily be able to hit CCB.

But based on previous posts of CJ's, I don't believe the TOI is about being super accurate. It's more about giving a little leeway to errors in one's stroke.

Meaning with the TOI alignment, you can hit a 1/2 tip inside of center and make the ball. As well as if you make a small error in where you hit (key word "small"), you can still make the ball.

Whereas if you aim at CCB, I don't think the tolerance for error is as wide.

I exclusively use Pro One, but I did spend a bit of time learning TOI, and can say for whatever reason it does work very well.

Just my $.02


Phil Mickelson "can" hit a golf ball straight, but he chooses not to, he favors a Fade so he can create a zone and "work" his ball towards the target.

Major league baseball players "can" throw the baseball straight, but they choose to work the ball with a slight curvature for accuracy, also creating a "plate zone".

We all grow up throwing and hitting different type balls. Not once do they go straight, they all have a curve or an arch to them, football, baseball, golf, tennis, soccer, etc. We simply are accustomed to playing a slight curve or arch in ALL our shots from a very young age.

Is pool the only exception? From my experience it's NOT, and I've played ALL those games mentioned above. Playing zones in any game is not possible without curving or deflecting the ball slightly off line. And it goes naturally with our natural tendency to NOT hit a ball straight EVERY time.....there's not need to if you know the TOI secret.

What's ironic is I was considered one of the "straightest shooters" in the world and I was intentionally NOT hitting the cue ball absolutely straight. The key to doing this is being accurate (in your cue ball / tip targeting) and yes, I can hit the center of the cue ball and make it go straight if I need to (on straight in shots especially), however, then I can't utilize the entire pocket.
'The Game is the Teacher'
 
Mr. Lee
I can't disagree with you. I learned back in 1971 when I was 11 that when I took the cue straight back, brought it straight forward, and hit the ball right smack in the vertical axis, the ball would have no English on it. If the cut was 30 degrees or less and I did this the ball would go in every time. I spent about five thousand hours in my basement missing balls that were 30 degrees or less. Every time I missed I would say to myself, "Damn! I must have unintentionally put English on that ball!" So after about five thousand hours of this I was putting unintentionally English on the ball a whole lot less frequently than I had five thousand hours earlier, but I was still doing it much to much. After reading these forums, I've learned that if I had hired one of you fine professional unintentionally English exterminators, this might have helped immensely, but I really don' think any of your students has ever walked out a session with you and never again put unintentional English on the ball again. So after five thousand hours of this I came up with an idea. I said to myself, "Instead of letting the English control me, why don't I control the English?" So in 1996 I started putting a touch of English on every shot. When C.J. Wiley started talking about this I was shocked. I thought I invented it. I started trying to read pool books, but I could never get through any after reading the basics. I'm sure they are immensely beneficial to some, but my subconscious is in total charge when I play pool, telling me exactly what I have to work on, and my subconscious being just that, I don't know why. I just obey it. So after learning to shoot with a touch of english I would play well with it, but frequently go into slumps, at which time I would go back to the center ball hit. When I'd go into a slump with that I'd go back to the touch of English. I did this for four thousand hours or so. I guess you could call me a pool eccentric. I recently bought a $200 dollar maple shaft McDermott cue. All my cues previously were J.C Penny models. I don't know why. So I started playing with the McDermott and all I did was miscue for a week. I know nothing about tips. I bought the standard one. Some guy over at the equipment forum told me it was a fine tip and I should sandpaper it. Highly effective! Several years ago I spent 2 hours at Chris' billiards in Chicago just to see what it was like to play on a 9 foot table as opposed to my 8 footer. Some of the shots were longer. Those 2 hours were the only time I'be spent in a pool room in my life. I play only in my basement. You see - I'll estimate i've spent 10,000 hours of my life playing pool, but for the first 9000+ hours I was an awful pool player. As I said, my subconscious is boss here. It told me you can build yourself a cottage or even a nice medium sized house and go to the pool room, or you can stay here in the basement and we'll build ourselves a fine mansion of a stroke, but first were going to have to build a frame, then there's the plumbing and the electrical work, etc. and this isn't going to look good for a while. I didn't want to go to a pool room and not look good so I stayed in my basement and obeyed my subconcious. I've never played family members for this reason, nor do I allow them to watch me play. They know I'm a pool eccentric and they accept it. Sorry,but I pracice the exact way pool instructors tell you not to practice. I'm not interested in pool games. I'm only interested in pocketing balls. I throw fifteen balls out there and bang them in. You might say, there's more to pool than pocketing balls. I might get to that as soon as I perfect this stroke. Anyway: back to my stroke. As I said, I've had 2 different strokes since 1996: center ball hit and touch of English. Eleven months ago I hit a shot and almost jumped out of my skin. It was long with about a 20 degree cut. Maybe you could call it a tester. I hit it and as it was going smack into the center of the pocket it felt like I sent a violin note throughout the world. It felt like my center ball stroke and my touch of English stroke met for the first time, shook hands, and said to each other, "Were going to work together from now on," and worked together for the first time on that shot. So they've been working together for the past 11 months. How are they working together? They seem incompatible. I have no idea how to explain it. All I can tell you is I can't wait to get to the pool table every day. Something fascinating is going on. The way I see it, my pool stroke is not perfect. The imperfections manifest themselves through short circuits. I've seen nine ball games where I'm certain that the reason one guy won is because he made all his long shots that had a 30 degree angle or less, and the loser missed a few of those testers. When I was 11 years old I was unable to hit a major league fastball, but when I was 11 years old I was able to perfectly pocket a long pool shot with a 30 angle or less: the type of shot needed to win professional pool games. It's just that when I was 11 I had imperfections in my stroke which caused my stroke to short circuit on 19 out of 20 of such shots. Today I still have imperfections which cause my stroke to short circuit. This is what I'm trying to eliminate. I'm trying to develop a fail safe stroke that NEVER misses, no matter how long the shot, if the angle is 30 degrees or less. I think this is attainable. Now obviously, if I attain this, I'll still miss such shots because of reasons such as stress, fatigue, inattention, etc., but it won't be because of my stroke which will be fail safe. Now obviously, If I could make a center ball hit and never put unintentional English on the ball I'd already be doing this. But there's no one in the world, as far as I know, who can do this. If this is attainable, it can only be attained by a mastery of squirt and swerve. A mastery of squirt and swerve can only be attained by being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls by making a center ball hit and not producing unintentional English, combined with being excellent, but not perfect, at pocketing balls with a touch of english. Then, as I said, these 2 strokes have to shake hands and work together. I'm working on this every day. So: back to my original post which you responded to Mr. Lee. I find aiming at balls at 30 degrees or less effortless. I know this because, for instance, if I try and make a center ball hit I always know immediately after the ball leaves the tip if I put unintentional English on the ball. If I did not put unintentional English on the ball I simply always make them - at least on my 8 foot table. When the shot angle is more than 30 degrees and I, for instance, make a center ball hit and immediately know after the ball leaves the tip that I did not put unintentional English on the ball, I sometimes miss; therefore it's easy to surmise that aiming for me is effortless at up to 30 degrees and becomes an effort only after 30 degrees. I'm wondering if this is the case for most players. I'm also wondering if what I'm trying to attain: that being a fail safe stroke with no imperfections and hence no short circuits that demonstrates itself on shots of long shots of 30 degrees or less, is already possessed by pro's. I see them miss such shots all the time. I just can't tell if it's because their stroke is not fail-safe and has flaws which leads to short circuits, or it's because of factors such As stress, fatigue, carelessness, etc.
.........You caught me on a good night. I'm usually kinda bashful.

The Great Wall Of Text. That really hurts the eyes.
 
When a professional player (or anyone) has a shot deviation of 0.0002%

Because you won't even try is exactly why you can't do it. So, you are saying that is impossible for a human to hit a cb to the end rail, freeze until the cb rebounds back to their tip and have it stop dead on their tip. There are many on here that have done that. And if you think you can't do that, you are missing out.

Both of you guys are saying that you can't hit center ball, but you can hit just a hair from center reliably. Baloney. If you can reliably hit one spot on the cb, you can reliably hit another spot. So, if your cue has so little deflection to it that your cb squirts noticeably with 1/16 of a tip of english, which is about the space between these letters, than you need to go get a real cue. Second, if it does cause the cb to squirt noticeably at that little difference, and you can't hit center ball reliably, which means you can't hit where you want to reliably, then you can't control the squirt you are getting. You can't adjust, because you can't hit that small a spot reliably anyways.

When a professional player (or anyone) has a shot deviation of 0.0002% it's better to have that on one side of center, then 0.0001% on either side of center. This way you know which way it's going to deflect EVERY time, this effectively takes a percentage of guesswork out of the equation. Every champion player does this in their own way, either on the inside or outside of the cue ball, I don't know any that use "center ball" on every shot, this has too many limitations. WIth TOI we can do whatever's needed.

This also allows a player to favor the undercut side of the pocket which has many advantages at the intermediate level as well as the higher levels. We also work with beginner players that take to the concept very quickly because they don't have to "empty their cup". This technique is used in golf, it's called "drawing and fading" the ball, and it can also be done with spin, although I recommend learning it with TOI first. It's like many of the greatest Golfers will say "learn to draw the golf ball first, then you can easily learn to fade it".

'The Game is the Teacher'
 
When a professional player (or anyone) has a shot deviation of 0.0002% it's better to have that on one side of center, then 0.0001% on either side of center. This way you know which way it's going to deflect EVERY time, this effectively takes a percentage of guesswork out of the equation. Every champion player does this in their own way, either on the inside or outside of the cue ball, I don't know any that use "center ball" on every shot, this has too many limitations. WIth TOI we can do whatever's needed.

This also allows a player to favor the undercut side of the pocket which has many advantages at the intermediate level as well as the higher levels. We also work with beginner players that take to the concept very quickly because they don't have to "empty their cup". This technique is used in golf, it's called "drawing and fading" the ball, and it can also be done with spin, although I recommend learning it with TOI first. It's like many of the greatest Golfers will say "learn to draw the golf ball first, then you can easily learn to fade it".

'The Game is the Teacher'

Pros have a shot deviation of .0002%? Really? Seriously? :rolleyes: Just how much squirt is caused by that amount of variance??
 
Keep it simple

I have been thinking about how to word this since I came home from the pool room today about 7 hours ago. I have been playing pool a long time. The last 2 years I have been able to play a lot, mostly bar box 8 ball, but I also play some 1 pocket and 9ball on 8 and 9 footers. My PSR and ball pocketing is pretty solid, enough so that I have been able to learn more of the strategy used in playing these games the last couple of years. Here is the area I would like to focus more on now, cue ball control, shape, position, whatever you want to call it. I want to improve my control of Whitey. I also play on different types of tables with different types of cloth with different types of cue balls. I memorized Bert Kinister's 60 Minute Workout for 9 Ball years ago. I also have Joe Tucker's Guaranteed Improvement, both the book and dvd, and its ok too, but I would like something different. I really don't know what I'm looking for in the way of position exercises, just something that will help sharpen my position skills. Ideally it would be something that would be fun and interesting too, but I am not allergic to hard work and practice. I've been doing it all my life.

So..if any of you instructors, or for that matter, anybody else, would like to share some ideas with me I would really appreciate it. I always try to pay it forward.

If you are going to use drills you must use stroke drills not shot drills. Without the stroke you have nothing.

It's all about the cue ball, the other 15 balls are pretty colors ... pocketing balls is the easy part. Learn the cue ball , use it the way it was meant to be used. It's all in the stroke. {Repeat} Without stroke control you have nothing.

Learn to use the rails more efficiently. Instead of trying to lay up go to the rail and back out, let the stroke go...it will help you to control the lay up when needed.

Learn how to use insurance position and or shot insurance. This is key to stringing racks and bigger runs

This is not rocket science although some like to make it that way.
Feel free to PM me.
Best of luck
 
This is a great way to improve the power and effectiveness of my stroke.

If you are going to use drills you must use stroke drills not shot drills. Without the stroke you have nothing.

It's all about the cue ball, the other 15 balls are pretty colors ... pocketing balls is the easy part. Learn the cue ball , use it the way it was meant to be used. It's all in the stroke. {Repeat} Without stroke control you have nothing.

Learn to use the rails more efficiently. Instead of trying to lay up go to the rail and back out, let the stroke go...it will help you to control the lay up when needed.

Learn how to use insurance position and or shot insurance. This is key to stringing racks and bigger runs

This is not rocket science although some like to make it that way.
Feel free to PM me.
Best of luck

I like to take "ball in hand" and run out 9 Ball going an extra rail EVERY time. This is a great way to improve the power and effectiveness of my stroke. "It's better to have it and not need it, than not have it at all" - when it comes to the pool stroke this is certainly true. 'The Game is our Teacher'
 
start off by using only center ball...either center high, center or center low....set up a target ball....see where whitey goes. If you need less angle use more high, more angle use more low.
 
I'm grateful to my Filipino friends for introducing me to 61 several years ago. The first shot(s) after the break often present challenging position routes (not to mention kicks, banks, caroms, safeties and combos).

Some of the best advice I ever got was to play all games (8, 9, 10, 1P, 14.1, etc.). The different games exercise your stroke in different ways. Over time, Rotation has replaced 14.1 as my favorite.

It's a fun, creative game. Give it a whirl for a variety of position play.
 
The most important visual aspect of position play is recognizing and utilizing Zones. It's easier to show than describe, the best way is to always extend your cue ball's potential line to a solid target, such as a diamond on the table (I never use a pocket even if I'm not getting close to it).

'The Game is the Teacher'.com

Try caroms. That will give you that solid target CJ suggests. After that then work on perfect speed to the second ball. Fine tune your caroms by trying to sink ball 2.

Downside to this is you never have the same shot twice but IMO more fun and no shagging balls. No doubt its best to do the drills.:(
 
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I wish posters would stop contributing to this thread so it would just disappear and my long post would disappear with it. I'm kinda embarrassed about it now. It sounds like I'm I'm tooting my own horn. I was being a little overdramatic there. When I was a kid there was nothing I would find more fun and relaxing than spending hours in my backyard shooting free throws. I'd analyze all aspects of the free throw, try and whittle down all unnecessary bodily movements in the shot, etc. and eventually when I was 18 I came up with a method that allowed me to make 100 in a row. I much preferred this to playing in actual basketball games. Although I was analyzing, etc. It wasn't work. it was fun and relaxing. When I was adult I brought the same mindset to the pool table. I had fun and relaxed while analyzing and tinkering but boy did I analyze and tinker. Until about 2 years ago I analyzed to the point where I was paralyzed. Many high school athletes with only 30 hours of pool playing experience could have beaten me 2 years ago. Then exactly 1 year ago it all started to come together and it's been coming together in an incredibly rapid pace since then. So these days it's no longer fun and relaxing. I'm so obsessed with shooting balls and thinking about the pool stroke that it's causing problems. The other day I'm in my car thinking about the pool stroke and I hear car horns beeping behind me. Then I realize I'm stopped and waiting for the stop sign to turn green. So that long post was another example of how my obsession with the pool stroke these days is really getting to me. Now this all started when everyone was talking about patterns and I rudely hijacked the thread, so go back and talk about patterns. I just thought I had to explain myself
 
.this REALLY tunes up "Touch".

Try caroms. That will give you that solid target CJ suggests. After that then work on perfect speed to the second ball. Fine tune your caroms by trying to sink ball 2.

Downside to this is you never have the same shot twice but IMO more fun and no shagging balls. No doubt its best to do the drills.:(

Yes, I agree, "Caroms" is the best way to develop cue ball control and Efren plays the game extremely well, and One Rail Billiards better than any living human.

I do a practice drill that's like playing caroms, only I play the first ball to come around the table and hit one of the other two balls again....this REALLY tunes up "Touch".
 
I wish posters would stop contributing to this thread so it would just disappear and my long post would disappear with it. I'm kinda embarrassed about it now. It sounds like I'm I'm tooting my own horn. I was being a little overdramatic there. When I was a kid there was nothing I would find more fun and relaxing than spending hours in my backyard shooting free throws. I'd analyze all aspects of the free throw, try and whittle down all unnecessary bodily movements in the shot, etc. and eventually when I was 18 I came up with a method that allowed me to make 100 in a row. I much preferred this to playing in actual basketball games. Although I was analyzing, etc. It wasn't work. it was fun and relaxing. When I was adult I brought the same mindset to the pool table. I had fun and relaxed while analyzing and tinkering but boy did I analyze and tinker. Until about 2 years ago I analyzed to the point where I was paralyzed. Many high school athletes with only 30 hours of pool playing experience could have beaten me 2 years ago. Then exactly 1 year ago it all started to come together and it's been coming together in an incredibly rapid pace since then. So these days it's no longer fun and relaxing. I'm so obsessed with shooting balls and thinking about the pool stroke that it's causing problems. The other day I'm in my car thinking about the pool stroke and I hear car horns beeping behind me. Then I realize I'm stopped and waiting for the stop sign to turn green. So that long post was another example of how my obsession with the pool stroke these days is really getting to me. Now this all started when everyone was talking about patterns and I rudely hijacked the thread, so go back and talk about patterns. I just thought I had to explain myself

Eschew surplussage.
-- Mark Twain​
 
... Efren plays the game extremely well, and One Rail Billiards better than any living human. ...
If his side can get a few tens of thousands together, I think I can get him some action. There are some Belgians who do pretty good 1-C.

Efren is OK at carom billiards, but not near world class. Or at least he hasn't shown it.
 
Eschew surplussage.
-- Mark Twain​
Hmmm. I think the only way I' m going to get out of this is to retire His Boy Elroy and register again as His Dog Astro. By the way I said I didn't care much for pool instruction books, but I used to read you a lot on a site associated with www.sfbilliards.com. This site had all kinds of links to pool sites. It was on my favorites list on my old computer but these days I can't find it. I can find the homepage for www.sfbilliards.com but I can't find this site associated with it that had all those links.
 
Hmmm. I think the only way I' m going to get out of this is to retire His Boy Elroy and register again as His Dog Astro. By the way I said I didn't care much for pool instruction books, but I used to read you a lot on a site associated with www.sfbilliards.com. This site had all kinds of links to pool sites. It was on my favorites list on my old computer but these days I can't find it. I can find the homepage for www.sfbilliards.com but I can't find this site associated with it that had all those links.

The third line down on that page says:

For miscellaneous files on handicapping, many articles, test shots and such, click here.
 
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