Would you take pool lessons online?

Is the instructor named Jasmin? And what's she (not) wearing?

... but no, I wouldn't do it.

Not to be overly negative, it just has so much added hassle involved for something that is basically... well, no offense, but it seems gimmicky. He can pay for and ship you some kind of super webcam, plus an appropriate mount or tripod, and you can pay him a deposit for it, and you can install it and learn how to work it, and you can have the necessary nice connection, and the necessary pool table, and a laptop or w/ever, and you can move the camera around 20 times an hour and try to dicker with the zoom and settings so that he can see what you're doing...

...or one guy can hop in a car and drive to the other guy.

OR... how about this:
what I would pay for is to have a pro analyze a video of my stroke. Give people directions on how to set up a self-taping session properly (camera angle, lighting, etc) and have them do various strokes from various angles, then maybe have them do a few ghost racks of 8 and/or 9 ball etc. This can all be done with anything from old fashioned vhs mailed via parcel post to digital video transferred over the internet. Then have the pro create a custom video of him addressing me and whatever weakenesses he spotted on my video. He mails me the video and that's what I'm paying for.

By simply eliminating the real-time aspect of it and letting a player wait a week for the analysis, you eliminate the need for special equipment/laptop/broadband/etc and they're getting something worthwhile that doesn't require quite as much commitment as a long drive or expensive flight. The pro can also watch and respond at his leisure (tho within a reasonable time frame, no more than a month I'd say)...no need to work around anyone's schedule. If the pro feels like taking a crack at it during his midnight snack, he can.
 
Everyone:

Thanks a lot for taking the time to share your thoughts and input, I really appreciate it. Based on your feedback, I'm going to pigeon-hole that concept. Maybe do something different, although I'm not sure.

If anyone has any good ideas on how internet communications technology can benefit pool, let me know - we'll cut ya in on the action!

I'd love to do something good for the game, since I can't make a living playing the game.

Regards,
Dave
 
SpiderWebComm said:
Would you pay for online pool lessons if:

1) It was real-time, and highly interactive

2) You can see the instructor with high quality video

3) You can hear the instructor with high quality audio

4) Of course, the instructor can see/hear you very well

5) Entirely web-based, with no software to install

6) You had a menu of tour pros to choose from, each w/ their own skill-sets and specialties

7) It was EASY (meaning, if you're a computer novice, no prob) and AFFORDABLE (cost a % of face-to-face lessons)


Basically, after selecting your instructor (use your imagination here) and pay by credit card, you are given a time slot to log-in to your virtual pool instruction room. Given the scenario, you would have to have a cable modem or dsl, wireless within your home (preferred), a laptop (preferred), webcam/microphone and a pool table.

Lessons would not need to be all about mechanics, you could also schedule "consults" with the champion/instructor of your choice... scheduling an hour of interactive online Q&As---while using systems like the Wei table to discuss scenarios where you may have lost money or lost crucial games.... even discuss mental aspects of games.

We have a new virtual communications technology that is currently being used by physicians for telemedicine consultations--- I know would work well under this scenario. I'm convinced if we can help a physician in a developing country learn new medical procedures and how to perform new surgical "moves," I'm convinced a pool player in a developed country can learn online as well.

Everything at this point is complete... technology, pros 'buy-in', everything...

The question is, if you can schedule a tour pro or instructor and meet with them online as easy as scheduling a doctor's appointment.... would you?

By the way, of course there would be challenges and negatives... that's not the question. :)
Click to expand...

In any start up business there will be challenges to be overcome. This one would be no different and the learning curve would be quick or else.

Personally, if you already have the telemedicine business in place, it should be a snap to do a pilot pool instruction business. I think you should select ONE PROFESSIONAL pool player, who would be willing to work with another PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTOR and have them tag team in providing instruction for inidividuals or groups.

I would choose players and instructors who already understand use of Internet technology like those that post on AZ. John Schmidt, Grady Mathews, Tony Crosby and te rest of the AZ posting billiard instructors.

You might also simply offer EITHER a professional pool player OR an instructor as one may appeal to an individual over another.

(Reward qualified people who use the same medium that you use to get to the "masses". :) It might cut down on the learning curve as well.

JoeyA
 
JoeyA said:
In any start up business there will be challenges to be overcome. This one would be no different and the learning curve would be quick or else.

Personally, if you already have the telemedicine business in place, it should be a snap to do a pilot pool instruction business. I think you should select ONE PROFESSIONAL pool player, who would be willing to work with another PROFESSIONAL INSTRUCTOR and have them tag team in providing instruction for inidividuals or groups.

I would choose players and instructors who already understand use of Internet technology like those that post on AZ. John Schmidt, Grady Mathews, Tony Crosby and te rest of the AZ posting billiard instructors.

You might also simply offer EITHER a professional pool player OR an instructor as one may appeal to an individual over another.

(Reward qualified people who use the same medium that you use to get to the "masses". :) It might cut down on the learning curve as well.

JoeyA
Click to expand...

It wouldn't be a start-up business, as I already have an established communications business. I have pros in line, wanting to help (all either top players of today or world champions of yesterday). I could deliver a pilot today, if I wanted. There's literally no learning curve w/ our technology (which is required for something like this, I think).

I guess I was sticking my toe in the water to see if it would fly before investing money into "project-specific" equipment and time. At this time, it'd be a bad bet.

Remember when Coke changed its flavor and everyone revolted, vowing to never drink Coke again? I'm guessing the pool market is traditional as well, and some things are best done in person no matter what.

Even if there was a "Death Star" system that helped w/ knowledge and strategy, anything kinesthetic would be extremely difficult - and that's what the audience is looking for with their investment.

Prime example: See post below...
 
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SpiderWebComm said:
Would you pay for online pool lessons if:

1) It was real-time, and highly interactive

2) You can see the instructor with high quality video

3) You can hear the instructor with high quality audio

4) Of course, the instructor can see/hear you very well

5) Entirely web-based, with no software to install

6) You had a menu of tour pros to choose from, each w/ their own skill-sets and specialties

7) It was EASY (meaning, if you're a computer novice, no prob) and AFFORDABLE (cost a % of face-to-face lessons)


Basically, after selecting your instructor (use your imagination here) and pay by credit card, you are given a time slot to log-in to your virtual pool instruction room. Given the scenario, you would have to have a cable modem or dsl, wireless within your home (preferred), a laptop (preferred), webcam/microphone and a pool table.

Lessons would not need to be all about mechanics, you could also schedule "consults" with the champion/instructor of your choice... scheduling an hour of interactive online Q&As---while using systems like the Wei table to discuss scenarios where you may have lost money or lost crucial games.... even discuss mental aspects of games.

We have a new virtual communications technology that is currently being used by physicians for telemedicine consultations--- I know would work well under this scenario. I'm convinced if we can help a physician in a developing country learn new medical procedures and how to perform new surgical "moves," I'm convinced a pool player in a developed country can learn online as well.

Everything at this point is complete... technology, pros 'buy-in', everything...

The question is, if you can schedule a tour pro or instructor and meet with them online as easy as scheduling a doctor's appointment.... would you?

By the way, of course there would be challenges and negatives... that's not the question. :)
Click to expand...

NO! I wouldn't even consider it.

One of my favorite quotes:
"Progress was alright once, but it has gone on too long." Ogden Nash, American Humorists.
 
Agreed there are challenges to on-line coaching but if the student had specific questions and prepared for the lesson, maybe also informing the coach what they want covered prior to the lesson, I can see this being very useful.

As far as being taught fundamentals/mechanics it would be tough but with cooperation of student and coach, I think you could get some decent angles for analysis. Maybe not perfect but close.

I used to have ready access to a pro and on many occasions I could set up a shot and discuss the options or techniques. Now he's gone and don't have expert advice readily available. If I found a coach I liked on-line why not fire some questions and scenarios.

If the student were really into this form of instruction would it not be possible for him to have more than one camera and give the instructor the ability to control which camera he was looking through? Lets say one camera looking down on the table and one at each end.
 
I think it would be great to have an overhead camera for my home table and have an interactive sesion of One Pocket with Grady giving me instruction on the next shot. He could give possible shots for both players and critique my choices. One hour sessions would be long enough and the session could be recorded for others to see.

Another option would be for Grady to play another top One Pocket player with his commentary on shot selection. Pay per view of course.



"Man can neither love not hate what he does not know", Cicero
 
Re-read Creedo post he has a good idea that needs to be fleshed out with the technology you have discussed. Something like a correspondence course.

First the student poses a set of questions. Then the student films their ability, per the instructor’s directions. The recordings are sent to the instructor for analysis. This is returned with a recording and a set of instructions. Perhaps it would include live cam demonstrations and instructions.

In this scenario the instructor can now say what he wants to watch and can give feedback live per his setup instructions. There are several advantages.
1. The problem is presented
2. The problem is analyzed and a solution is created.
3. Instruction is given for correcting the problem
4. Based on the instructions and live cam set up we are at a place where instructions from a distant pro would be beneficial.
5. The student practices what they have been taught and replies with another recording.

Basically we are following the medical model here and it would definitely work if you think in terms of problem presentation, diagnosis, treatment and follow up. This is of course an endless cycle.

I read the comments about the necessity for watching nuances and I understand the concerns. What needs to be considered is that the student is not playing a game. The student is addressing a particular set of problems. Therefore, the recording would be specific for a type of shot, stroke, etc. The instructor might tell the student to play x number of shots with the camera at x and y positions. Instructions would then contain similar types of recordings, instructions, etc.

The beauty of this system as with all types of correspondence / live feedback courses lies in the idea that you have the instructor you prefer, your specific problems diagnosed and treated, and the whole thing is recorded for multiple replay and practice.

I would suggest that there are some real possibilities here and that there is a need to further develop the idea.

As a college professor I very much prefer to teach advanced graduate students on a one-to-one basis that is geared to their current level of knowledge with a heavy emphasis on recorded weekly meetings that students can study as needed.

Usually it is not possible to resolve all of the necessary issues and the student needs to do some “homework” before we can discuss the subtly of the issues and expand their knowledge base. In this sense, after talking with me for an hour or so the student needs to practice (in the clinic or pool hall) and needs to read further information before the student is “ready” to talk with me again. This is the best use of the student’s time and of my time.

Next week we can discuss more technical in depth problems as I determine that they mature into the subject matter. The same could be said for the type of instruction discussed here. In some ways it would be preferred to the more traditional methods, especially at the advanced levels of play.
 
With advanced graduate students I have a set of "canned" issues, and solutions that they need to study and practice before I will conduct the first review. Something like this could be developed for "standard" problems that are then followed by live interactions. This saves time and money for both of us as I lead the student down the path to becoming a professional. At every stage there are "canned" and individual lessons.

This is one way to earn a Ph.D. I do not see why it would not work to become a professional player.:D
 
JoeW said:
Re-read Creedo post he has a good idea that needs to be fleshed out with the technology you have discussed. Something like a correspondence course.

First the student poses a set of questions. Then the student films their ability, per the instructor’s directions. The recordings are sent to the instructor for analysis. This is returned with a recording and a set of instructions. Perhaps it would include live cam demonstrations and instructions.

In this scenario the instructor can now say what he wants to watch and can give feedback live per his setup instructions. There are several advantages.
1. The problem is presented
2. The problem is analyzed and a solution is created.
3. Instruction is given for correcting the problem
4. Based on the instructions and live cam set up we are at a place where instructions from a distant pro would be beneficial.
5. The student practices what they have been taught and replies with another recording.

Basically we are following the medical model here and it would definitely work if you think in terms of problem presentation, diagnosis, treatment and follow up. This is of course an endless cycle.

I read the comments about the necessity for watching nuances and I understand the concerns. What needs to be considered is that the student is not playing a game. The student is addressing a particular set of problems. Therefore, the recording would be specific for a type of shot, stroke, etc. The instructor might tell the student to play x number of shots with the camera at x and y positions. Instructions would then contain similar types of recordings, instructions, etc.

The beauty of this system as with all types of correspondence / live feedback courses lies in the idea that you have the instructor you prefer, your specific problems diagnosed and treated, and the whole thing is recorded for multiple replay and practice.

I would suggest that there are some real possibilities here and that there is a need to further develop the idea.

As a college professor I very much prefer to teach advanced graduate students on a one-to-one basis that is geared to their current level of knowledge with a heavy emphasis on recorded weekly meetings that students can study as needed.

Usually it is not possible to resolve all of the necessary issues and the student needs to do some “homework” before we can discuss the subtly of the issues and expand their knowledge base. In this sense, after talking with me for an hour or so the student needs to practice (in the clinic or pool hall) and needs to read further information before the student is “ready” to talk with me again. This is the best use of the student’s time and of my time.

Next week we can discuss more technical in depth problems as I determine that they mature into the subject matter. The same could be said for the type of instruction discussed here. In some ways it would be preferred to the more traditional methods, especially at the advanced levels of play.
Click to expand...

I can see you invested a lot of time thinking about this. It's almost a puzzle - in addition to marketing, what pedagogy would be acceptable to the student? I think there's only 2 or 3 people out of a bunch who said they would keep an open mind and try it-- which makes me nervous about moving forward as-is.

I'll talk to some pros again and get them to brain storm on a marketable service. They would know more than anyone what they can do online within the limitations of technology which people would consider marketable. When we have something more refined, I'll PM you and some other AZers for a private pilot.
 
I doubt that I would place too much credence in some of the responses here. You need to read between the lines. People are not inclined to commit to new ideas easily.

When I came up with a new PC based computerized diagnostic system for social intakes / medical history data base it was not initially well received in the early 80s. I learned that the best way to have it accepted was to install it state wide and then ask everyone involved to use it three times and tell me everything that was "wrong" with it so that we could discard and or refine for use in other agencies.

We promised that the software would only be available for three months and that it could not be permanently installed unless the staff (1,000 + people) found it to be useful. Long story short, there was the usual initial resistance, fear (of loosing one’s job), and criticism. After a three month evaluation most people would not allow their agencies to remove it because they could not function without it. There were similar results in at least two other states and some governmental agencies.

I found it ironic that some of the initial comments here involve the “de-humanizing” aspect of your idea. As you can imagine we had the same criticism X3. Do not be dissuaded, you have one heck of an idea here that will work. I find that most people, me included, do not want to commit to an “unknown” new idea.

From my reading of the posts, the feedback here indicates that this idea should be seriously pursued. I am not an optimist, per se. I simply have some experience with introducing “new” ideas. Most of the comments here after the initial criticism, are positive. I would be pleased to help / review and comment on your efforts.

BTW 2 or 3 people out of 10 is a great response rate. There is a base for this work,
 
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JoeW said:
I doubt that I would place too much credence in some of the responses here. You need to read between the lines. People are not inclined to commit to new ideas easily.

When I came up with a new PC based computerized diagnostic system for social intakes / medical history data base it was not initially well received in the early 80s. I learned that the best way to have it accepted was to install it state wide and then ask everyone involved to use it three times and tell me everything that was "wrong" with it so that we could discard and or refine for use in other agencies.

We promised that the software would only be available for three months and that it could not be permanently installed unless the staff (1,000 + people) found it to be useful. Long story short, there was the usual initial resistance, fear (of loosing one’s job), and criticism. After a three month evaluation most people would not allow their agencies to remove it because they could not function without it. There were similar results in at least two other states and some governmental agencies.

I found it ironic that some of the initial comments here involve the “de-humanizing” aspect of your idea. As you can imagine we had the same criticism X3. Do not be dissuaded, you have one heck of an idea here that will work. I find that most people, me included, do not want to commit to an “unknown” new idea.

From my reading of the posts, the feedback here indicates that this idea should be seriously pursued. I am not an optimist, per se. I simply have some experience with introducing “new” ideas. Most of the comments here after the initial criticism, are positive. I would be pleased to help / review and comment on your efforts.

BTW 2 or 3 people out of 10 is a great response rate. There is a base for this work,
Click to expand...

PM w/ your email/contact info-
Dave
 
Joe's right. Don't give up because of negative comments. As he said, that is a normal and common response to doing things differently.

Go for it, I'm sure plenty of people, many that didn't post, will be happy to give it a try, provided the committment isn't overdone.

Mike
 
I missed something. How would the audio and video equipment work on the students side? You mail it to them and they plug it in their computer?

I think a good way of doing this would be with a mixture of "live" and internet lessons. For example, I take a lessons from a good instructor in person. The instructor identifies a series of mechanical things to work on and gives me some drills. Then, every week or two, there is an internet follow up there the instructor is evaluating your progress and providing feedback. When possible, the student can arrange for another "live" lesson. This allows a student to establish a regular and long term relationship with an instructor as opposed to the current popular model of going to a three day clinic and ending it.
 
Since the shortcoming seems to be the equipment on the student's side... maybe you could figure out the ideal equipment and see if individual pool halls are willing to pay for that equipment and set it up. Or you even pay for it hoping that enough lessons are sold to make up the cost. Then any student within driving distance of that pool hall can make use of the live interactive session. This eliminates the technology issue and also frees the student up from having to own a pool table. It also means people who just happen to wander into the pool hall can see what's going on and might get an interest even if they never heard of the internet.
 
A review of “Lessons On Line”

Lucky me – Dave asked me to visit his site in progress to see how it can work. To say I was impressed is to put it mildly. It is great.

There was no need for me to download anything. I just logged on through the web browser with my webcam in the background. The system allows for live video and voice interaction, online whiteboard of pool table diagrams constructed in real time by both of us, while we talked.

The system also allows for the instructor and the student to watch real time or canned videos. The video quality was excellent even with my el-cheapo web cam. The video windows are slightly smaller than what I would like to see but that is more a matter of the amount of data that can be broadcast. Screen resolution was excellent and self adjusting. The video is clear and it would be easy to “see” what the instructor is showing.

I think when one considers the cost of travel time, food and lodgings as well as instructor fees (which include instructor travel costs as well) this system is cost efficient.

What I liked the most is the ability for personal interaction. As I see it, the instructor would tell the student what they wanted to see from the student’s end. This would include camera setup, type of shot, stroke, etc. This info could be uploaded for analysis in real time or stored to save time. Either way the instructor and student get together online for a video and voice discussion of the problem. Once the system is underway a student might spend one hour with an instructor and 10 hours practicing before the next review.

In three hours of instruction the student spends 30 hours learning, step by step. This is a better system than trying to pack all that information into one’s head and then attempting to remember what was taught. In addition, the student’s mistakes are corrected as each technique is under study.

If you go to a workshop the instructor might present 10 new ideas in three hours. Now you have to go home remember what those ideas were and practice each one to perfection. In the online version you are taught a technique, practice that technique to mastery as evaluated by the instructor and then proceed to the next lesson. In the online system you get three hours of instruction spaced over the time it takes you to learn each goal. Can’t beat self paced instruction and the online version of teaching is personalized.

There is another advantage here too. I would like to learn one pocket from Grady Mathews, trick shots from Mike Massey and I would have to choose one over the other in any given year. In the online system I could spend two hours with one person and two hours with another.

It’s the future – embrace it.
 
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JoeW said:
A review of “Lessons On Line”

Lucky me – Dave asked me to visit his site in progress to see how it can work. To say I was impressed is to put it mildly. It is great.

There was no need for me to download anything. I just logged on through the web browser with my webcam in the background. The system allows for live video and voice interaction, online whiteboard of pool table diagrams constructed in real time by both of us, while we talked.

The system also allows for the instructor and the student to watch real time or canned videos. The video quality was excellent even with my el-cheapo web cam. The video windows are slightly smaller than what I would like to see but that is more a matter of the amount of data that can be broadcast. Screen resolution was excellent and self adjusting. The video is clear and it would be easy to “see” what the instructor is showing.

I think when one considers the cost of travel time, food and lodgings as well as instructor fees (which include instructor travel costs as well) this system is cost efficient.

What I liked the most is the ability for personal interaction. As I see it, the instructor would tell the student what they wanted to see from the student’s end. This would include camera setup, type of shot, stroke, etc. This info could be uploaded for analysis in real time or stored to save time. Either way the instructor and student get together online for a video and voice discussion of the problem. Once the system is underway a student might spend one hour with an instructor and 10 hours practicing before the next review.

In three hours of instruction the student spends 30 hours learning, step by step. This is a better system than trying to pack all that information into one’s head and then attempting to remember what was taught. In addition, the student’s mistakes are corrected as each technique is under study.

If you go to a workshop the instructor might present 10 new ideas in three hours. Now you have to go home remember what those ideas were and practice each one to perfection. In the online version you are taught a technique, practice that technique to mastery as evaluated by the instructor and then proceed to the next lesson. In the online system you get three hours of instruction spaced over the time it takes you to learn each goal. Can’t beat self paced instruction and the online version of teaching is personalized.

There is another advantage here too. I would like to learn one pocket from Grady Mathews, trick shots from Mike Massey and I would have to choose one over the other in any given year. In the online system I could spend two hours with one person and two hours with another.

It’s the future – embrace it.
Click to expand...

Wow, that was nice of you to say. What I'm going to do is invite AZers to a 'pilot' when I'm ready. Based on that, we'll see where it goes.
 
spider, was the video from joe's end to you usable? I mean could you see for example the fingers on his bridge hand clearly, or where he's about to hit the CB?

I just wanna know what webcams are like these days... I don't own one but if it works as well as he says it's something I might buy.
 
CreeDo said:
spider, was the video from joe's end to you usable? I mean could you see for example the fingers on his bridge hand clearly, or where he's about to hit the CB?

I just wanna know what webcams are like these days... I don't own one but if it works as well as he says it's something I might buy.
Click to expand...

The video from Joe's house was beautiful - full motion w/ no pausing. I could see him fine. I couldn't tell the brand of cigarette he was smoking, but it looked like a Marlboro. :)
 
awesome :)

I guess I was too negative about the technical limitations, sounds like they're not as bad as I made them out to be.

If I get a cam I wanna try =)
 
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